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RE: Why guitars sound better with age? (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
THis is Ramirez "science" not mine of course, it could be BS.
It's not science, it's received wisdom in Ramirez' case.
The solvents in finishes 'offgas' rapidly so the finish can dry, but in older varnish recipes slow chemical processes can go on for decades.
The deal is that in violin family instruments the damping provided by finish is intrinsic to the sound, to a degree. In a guitar, damping is not so much part of the sound. Finishes "tighten the box' because it's surface tension provided by finishes. Lacquer tends to tighten them more than shellac.
Through time the the surface tension breaks down. The finish does continue to change, however modern catalized finishes are different than shellac or lacquer. In general guitar finishes are not thick enough to effect too much change via straight damping from the mass of the finish, but more though constricting the box by encasing it with a film. That is a form of damping by surface tension. If a guitar has enough finish on it to dampen the guitar because of the mass of the finish, that is way, way too much finish.
I see the basic difference between violin and guitar finishes functioning as this:
The violin needs some damping via the mass of the finish and the effect of surface tension. Over time the softer base of a violin varnish becomes harder though chemical changes in the oils. This makes the the film more "shell like" and more able to provide the needed surface tension and mass, but tempered really to vibrate more cleanly.
Think of dry pottery that is unfired, it still has a soft maleable feeling even though it is dry and solid. Fire it and it hardens, then it has shrunk and the molecules are closer together, more dense, but less mass.
The guitar is totally different mechanically from a violin in how the string energy is fed into the bridge system. Not to go into it now, but lets just take that mechanical difference as an 'a priori' consideration. I can explain fully it some other time. So the violin is much smaller, narrower, arched much higher and is thicker that a guitar. A guitar has thin wide plates that are activated by less raw string energy than the smaller violin.
The thin plates of wood in a guitar are created to work at an optimal structural juncture of mass vs. strength, any big mass damping in the system is going effect the balance (or non balance because that could be the key to making it sound good ) , but a tightening form of damping could actually help the system to a degree. It could make the top 'snappier' or stronger or tougher to flex due to surface tension. Over time that surface tension will lease with use , called mechanical wear, and the natural chemical processes the finish will go though over time to reduce its own mass.
Those factors will effect how finishes engage in shaping the mellowness of older guitars. HA! But that is not all that will effect the guitar. The wood will continue to oxidize and become in micro amounts, itself less massive. The wood will vibrate in certain patterns internally setting up systems and paths of mechanical wear inside the guitar structure that will effect looseness and flexibility.
There are so many things, those are a few of the ways I think about it, but I have talked to guitar makers, some really great ones who know more any anyone on the planet about how to make guitars, and they still consider this question a mystery. In the end we really don't know how any or all these factors, and factors we have not learned about yet, contribute to breaking in a guitar.
Of course because this is the luther world people will disagree, but that is how I see it at this time with the information I have researched and personally experienced. And to them I say Poop to you!
It's like breaking the engine of a fine car or a baseball glove. Do you really need to know? I don't, it just happens and it's an art to break in a guitar, great car or a glove. Do it with love, ( and a vibrator if you want) ~ who cares how it works?
RE: Why guitars sound better with age? (in reply to estebanana)
Imagine an instrument of balsa wood. Next, covered with a thin layer of something crystalline like glass or enamel.
Would that dampen or enhance resonating properties?
I am not sure whether older instruments would be soundng mellow in the first place. To me they seem to sound rich and complex before all.
( I also doubt the claim of a wearing out sound wood, as long as the wood won´t have dried out to something similar of basically balsa.)
There are suggestions of physical changes with resin of aging / moved wood, or with changes of cellular walls inside the wood ( or both) that I personally find appearing more plausible than above approach.
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RE: Why guitars sound better with age? (in reply to estebanana)
maybe the trick is to fill a guitar with salt and turn on a tone-rite vibrator and leave for a week.
i think there is a lot of wisdom to the idea that a good to great guitar player playing a good to great guitar can make that guitar sound better with long term great guitar playing.
RE: Why guitars sound better with age? (in reply to Ruphus)
quote:
Imagine an instrument of balsa wood. Next, covered with a thin layer of something crystalline like glass or enamel.
Would that dampen or enhance resonating properties?
There's a guy in NY who makes balsa violins, they sound pretty good, go ask him.
From the outside instrument making looks logical and rational, but if you actually practice it on a daily basis many things become unclear. Like the more you understand it the more difficult it becomes.
RE: Why guitars sound better with age? (in reply to estebanana)
Go to confess that in general that is how life likes to be, indeed, and that it wouldn´t surprise if in the end it could be such ways in this realm too.
Ruphus
PS:
In the mid nineties I made friends with a young chap who was studying jura, and who was completely without hazzles and doubt in life. After a year or so he said like: "My life has completely changed. I am all wondering and feel like walking through mist". I replied like: "It shows that you are on the right way".
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