Why guitars sound better with age?

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Why guitars sound better with age?

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lukeofgod

Posts: 113
Joined: Jan. 11 2012
From: Bay Area- CA

Why guitars sound better with age?

I bet many here have all played a brand new guitar and been able to compare to a much older one (at least 6 years old). The sound between the two are very distinguishable.... but doe anyone know exactly why older guitars sound so much fuller sounding??

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 18 2013 4:45:12

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Why guitars sound better with age? (in reply to lukeofgod)

My understanding is that it has to do with the guitars inability to flex. An older guitar can flex, after being hit with the same frequencies for years, helping to create resonance(like Teslas earthquake machine). Some guitars flex to the frequency of the strings better then others.......

I'm curious to see what a professional says though......

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 18 2013 6:27:44

Arash

Posts: 4494
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Why guitars sound better with age? (in reply to lukeofgod)

I am not professional, but i can say that this is not always the case.
I have heard and played old guitars which sounded like pile of poo, stifled with a pillow, and new guitars which sounded amazingly "open" and ready to kick ass.

But i guess if you take two guitars with exactly the same specifications and woods, one of them was played (and i mean regurarly played, not just put in a glass case in a museum) for some years and one is brand new and never played, then often times the older one sounds a bit better, the wood settled, opened up, etc.

But there is also a lot of myth etc. involved in such discussions.
It really depends on the guitar, the woods which were originally used, what is been done to the guitar during those years, etc. you never know. Just play the guitar and compare. Don't base your judgement on some written fancy describtions. play the thing. I even played a very old Archangel which i hated.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 18 2013 8:50:54

tele

Posts: 1462
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: Why guitars sound better with age? (in reply to Arash)

Has anyone here owned a guitar for over 15 years(purchased as new) and have you noticed a difference?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 18 2013 10:57:50

bursche

Posts: 1181
Joined: Jul. 19 2007
From: Frankfurt, Germany

RE: Why guitars sound better with age? (in reply to tele)

quote:

Has anyone here owned a guitar for over 15 years(purchased as new) and have you noticed a difference?

The change must be so slow and so distorted by tonal changes caused by climate factors that I can hardly imagine anyone to be able to really hear the difference caused by the age.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 18 2013 11:18:38

etta

Posts: 327
Joined: Jan. 20 2010

RE: Why guitars sound better with age? (in reply to lukeofgod)

Being played often seems to be a major factor which compliments the aging factor. My experience shows that about 48-72 hours on a "tone right" will wake up most guitars.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 18 2013 13:01:33

Ricardo

Posts: 13834
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Why guitars sound better with age? (in reply to lukeofgod)

Ramirez talked about crystals in the finish aligning a certain way that adds to the sound shaping up being played and drying out at the same time. Not sure if there is anything to it but to me it is a FACT that if you play a guitar a lot after a year or so it sounds much better. I have seen with other people's guitars that I revisit after trying them new and stiff, not my own, as I am always with my guitar it is hard to perceive changes slowly. I will say humidity and temperature will change a guitar drastically over night. In general more old dry guitars tend to sound better than young fresh wet ones.

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 18 2013 20:55:04

krichards

Posts: 597
Joined: Jan. 14 2007
From: York, England

RE: Why guitars sound better with age? (in reply to lukeofgod)

quote:

doe anyone know exactly why older guitars sound so much fuller sounding

That's a massive generalisation and simply not true.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 19 2013 7:34:24

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3293
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Why guitars sound better with age? (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

Ramirez talked about crystals in the finish aligning a certain way that adds to the sound shaping up being played and drying out at the same time.
Ricardo

Ramirez III said quite a lot of stuff I didn't necessarily believe. I thought some of it was absolutely false. Still, I kept buying guitars from him and selling them in the USA, because he made the best instruments generally available at the time.

The catalyzed polyurethane finish on my '67 1a blanca got thinner as time went on and various components gradually evaporated over a period of years. But I didn't notice a big change in sound. I played it just about every day, so I probably would have adjusted to a gradual change.

A friend had a pro in Madrid (classical, with a name I recognized, but now don't recall) pick out a 1973 Conde blanca for him at the Gravina shop, and send it to the USA.

When it arrived, I thought it was a dog. Dead as a doornail. Three years later it was one of the few guitars I had played that I preferred to my '67 Ramirez.

I thought probably the Conde was made with wood that was incompletely seasoned, and the wood matured after the guitar was made. But that's just what I thought...no empirical verification.

Like Ricardo, I have heard/played other guitars that I definitely thought had improved considerably over a period of months or a couple of years...but auditory memory is notoriously unreliable.

What's important is what the guitar does for you at the moment. I remember playing a used Santos Hernandez blanca in a big music store in Mexico City some time in the late 1960s. I played much better than usual, because the guitar felt and sounded so great.

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 20 2013 15:55:54

lukeofgod

Posts: 113
Joined: Jan. 11 2012
From: Bay Area- CA

RE: Why guitars sound better with age? (in reply to lukeofgod)

Thanks for the feedback peeps

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 20 2013 17:10:15

RobJe

Posts: 730
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Why guitars sound better with age? (in reply to lukeofgod)

The important qualities of a guitar are how it feels under your fingers (most important for me) and how it sounds to the listener. These are subjective qualities and judgements about them can be clouded by many factors - including wishful thinking!

From discussions and reading I find general agreement from luthiers that after being strung for the first time a guitar takes a little time to settle in and I am inclined to accept this. I am also pretty certain that the sound of some guitars are affected on a day to day basis by humidity.

I am less certain about other claims including these
Cedar tops stay the same, spruce ones improve with age and playing
Flamenco guitars get more mellow as they get very old (ie less flamenco)

Findings about my own guitars (subject to all the warnings about objectivity) don’t really support great changes with age. I do have plenty of experience to go on. I still own and play guitars that I bought from new many years ago - 53 years, 51 years, 45 years, 24 years, 23 years, 17 years and 10 years.

In my view they remain uniquely different from each other and their strengths and (annoyingly) weaknesses remain more or less the same.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 20 2013 19:11:12

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Why guitars sound better with age? (in reply to lukeofgod)

Glad you asked:

there doesn't seem to be any definitive answer unless we can get a professional that plays hours a day to give his/her thoughts.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 20 2013 20:45:06

Arash

Posts: 4494
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Why guitars sound better with age? (in reply to aeolus)

quote:

ORIGINAL: aeolus

Glad you asked:

there doesn't seem to be any definitive answer unless we can get a professional that plays hours a day to give his/her thoughts.

Interesting.
So how do we "break in" flamenco guitars?
24 hours sound break-in process infront of JBL speakers playing Paco de Lucia or Segovia?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 20 2013 20:53:19

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Why guitars sound better with age? (in reply to lukeofgod)

quote:

drying out at the same time.

Sorry, gotta disagree with you on this one Ricardo, prolly the only time it'll happen.

I'm pretty certain the wood that luthier's use is FULLY cured. Meaning it's moisture content is completely dependent on the humidity of it's environment.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 20 2013 21:24:42

flyhere

Posts: 121
Joined: Dec. 17 2012

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 20 2013 23:44:26

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Why guitars sound better with age? (in reply to lukeofgod)

Been telling the story before how I found a guitar in a store that had been gathering dust for four years.

Returned it after a couple of days playing. Its sound had very obviously improved. So much so that the amazed owner hang it back on the wall with a considerable raise on the price label.

Can´t tell whether my then newly bought 1978 or so guitar has changed dramatically, though fancying that there had added that aging-wood benefit to it.

Subjectively it appears to me as if some guitars would benefit more from playing and aging than others. And as if duds wouldn´t improve anyway.

Would be nice to see some scientifical research on the matter, which though might rather not be happening for no financing.

So breaking in and aging will probably remain a topic believed in by what seems like ~ 80% of the people and the rest who is convinced this to be humbug.

I personally am convinced to have seen breaking in like with above mentioned guitar, and also to hear advantages of aged wood, whether of built guitars or of long term rested material.

In the Miguel Rodriguez shop folks appeared to believe the latter too, insisting on using old wood.
( And I believe it being a shame how old buildings are being demolished without luthiers gathering some old doors, beams and panels first.)
The Rodriguez used to, according to Ron Fernandez.

And with these insane prices for some mere sheets these days it should be a financial and ecological shame as well, when builders do not take advantage of second hand ressource whenever possible.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 21 2013 9:56:36

Flamencosaint

Posts: 25
Joined: Mar. 12 2013

RE: Why guitars sound better with age? (in reply to lukeofgod)

I wouldnt know too much but about 2 months ago I bought a Blanca from a guy which is 20yrs old. The guitar was made by a local Luthier in Cape Town named Marc Maingard which is well known for other types of guitars but not really flamenco. the guitar was lying in this guy's hardcase for like 3 years, Savarez strings on it which were mouldy, so was the fret board etc. Through all of that nastyness when I played it, it sounded very nice.

After I bought it I went to a music shop and got guitar polish and everything needed to rejuvenate this guitar. Once I cleaned her @ss up and put on new strings I went to my teacher who has a Conde which was built in 2004. we compared the 2 and my guitar was on par with sound and tonal qualities as the Conde and he (teacher) said it could be because the wood is over 20 years old and very matured.
So perhaps some guitars do sound better with age and others dont. There are too many factors to consider so I wont go out and say that its a definite thing, but rather a bigger possibility

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 21 2013 10:26:58

Morante

Posts: 1970
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: Why guitars sound better with age? (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

I'm pretty certain the wood that luthier's use is FULLY cured. Meaning it's moisture content is completely dependent on the humidity of it's environment.

Don´t be so sure about this: there are luthiers who use wood recently bought fom Madinter, Barber etc.

I would always like to visit the taller of a guitarrero before ordering a guitar.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 21 2013 10:32:10

estebanana

Posts: 8759
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Why guitars sound better with age? (in reply to krichards)

quote:

quote:

doe anyone know exactly why older guitars sound so much fuller sounding

That's a massive generalisation and simply not true.

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Kevin Richards

Notice only one guitar maker replies and then only to say a generalization, a grand one at that, has been made.

Think about that.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 21 2013 13:20:23

gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: Why guitars sound better with age? (in reply to estebanana)

I propose it is safe to say that some instruments are made well enough to "survive" the test of time, but lapsing of time itself is initially beneficial [as in "opening" the guitar or violin] but later detrimental as in causing natural deterioration.

The myth certainly rises from the need to rescue the best made violins from the glorious days of Cremona; yet, I doubt that those fiddles sound as good as they did in the hands of our ancestors, when they were new... and young!!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 21 2013 16:25:47

BarkellWH

Posts: 3398
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Why guitars sound better with age? (in reply to gj Michelob)

quote:

...but lapsing of time itself is initially beneficial [as in "opening" the guitar or violin] but later detrimental as in causing natural deterioration. ...yet, I doubt that those fiddles sound as good as they did in the hands of our ancestors, when they were new... and young!!

I have conflated your statements above, gj, because they appear to describe both the life cycles of the instruments and of the human beings who play them! At the age of 70, I can remember well when I was "new" and "young," just like a newly minted instrument. And now I can detect the "natural deterioration," although I suspect mine is occurring at a faster rate than that of a well-made violin.

Cheers,

Bill

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Who tried to hustle the East."

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 21 2013 16:41:21

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Why guitars sound better with age? (in reply to lukeofgod)

GJ,

Where from do you know it is a myth, and where from that it came about exclusively through dealings about violins from Cremona?

Or to ask positively: By which rational do you exclude certain tonal charme of aged instruments / woods as empirical?

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 21 2013 16:47:03

gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: Why guitars sound better with age? (in reply to Ruphus)

My proposition is only such, an hypothesis to be discussed by more inveterate luthiers. When I studied Cello, however, I learned a great deal about the Italian great makers and the significance of their heritage, enough to form the diubts i shared here. But, I do not claim to be an authority on the subject, and apologize if my post was misleadingly worded.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 21 2013 17:46:21

gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: Why guitars sound better with age? (in reply to BarkellWH)

Bill, I felt that metaphor as well as I was writing about violins aging ... I ll be turning 51 over the long weekend and I am afraid I do not "respond" as clearly as I did twentyfive years ago when life's scratchy bow hits me!!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 21 2013 18:15:35

BarkellWH

Posts: 3398
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Why guitars sound better with age? (in reply to gj Michelob)

quote:

I ll be turning 51 over the long weekend

A very Happy Birthday, gj, and many more! A double treat to celebrate Memorial Day and your birthday.

Cheers,

Bill

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And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 21 2013 19:33:10

Arash

Posts: 4494
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Why guitars sound better with age? (in reply to gj Michelob)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gj Michelob
I ll be turning 51 over the long weekend

you look much younger man!
more like 41.
I won't congratulate in advance since some believe that it might bring ill luck, etc. (i don't believe that but who knows....). So later ;)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 21 2013 20:33:56

gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: Why guitars sound better with age? (in reply to BarkellWH)

Thank you Bill and Arash -and yes, I totally am that superstitious type you mentioned, but I believe 'bad people' bring bad luck... so you couldn't amigos

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 21 2013 21:15:23

Ricardo

Posts: 13834
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Why guitars sound better with age? (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lenador

quote:

drying out at the same time.

Sorry, gotta disagree with you on this one Ricardo, prolly the only time it'll happen.

I'm pretty certain the wood that luthier's use is FULLY cured. Meaning it's moisture content is completely dependent on the humidity of it's environment.

You pulled my quote out of sentence. I was refering only to the FINISH not the wood. As the finish dries. Meaning, a new guitar feels dry of course but Ramirez discussed various dry times of finishes. For example the oil base he used that stradavarious used (so he says) the stupid guitar did not finish drying after a year and he gave to segovia and his arm hair stuck. Point was different finishes dry out over a LONG period of time and you are vibrating the guitar top by playing it, there is a crystalization process over a long period. THis is Ramirez "science" not mine of course, it could be BS.

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 22 2013 13:12:27

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Why guitars sound better with age? (in reply to lukeofgod)

Ah, gotcha, yeah, I dunno jack about finish cure times.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 22 2013 15:09:53

estebanana

Posts: 8759
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Why guitars sound better with age? (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

For example the oil base he used that stradavarious used (so he says) the stupid guitar did not finish drying after a year and he gave to segovia and his arm hair stuck.

I wish I could have seen that.

Ramirez did not know how to make an oil varnish, HAHAHAHAHAHA.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 24 2013 2:38:41

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