Learning flamenco guitar

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Romanza

Posts: 296
Joined: Oct. 24 2005

Learning flamenco guitar

Hello - I'm about to start learning Flamenco guitar in a group. Can anyone recommend a website with some good basics, e.g. chord progressions. Also any book recommendations for beginners. I have some classical guitar experience but no flamenco and I'd like to get a head start! Thanks.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 24 2005 13:27:11

Skai

Posts: 317
Joined: Sep. 12 2004

RE: Learning flamenco guitar (in reply to Romanza)

I highly recommend the 2 volume book 'Flamenco Guitar Method' by Gerhard Graf-Martinez. It comes with a CD too and if you can afford it, he has 2 DVDs that cover the exact same topics in the 2 books. However the DVDs can't replace the books and are better used in conjunction with the books and CD.

Juan Martin's 'El Arte Flamenco de la Guitarra' has a different approach but great nonetheless.

You've to know that flamenco is unlike classical. There are many ways to do a technique and there aren't exactly 'right' or 'wrong' methods. But there are inefficient methods though..

It's a matter of personal preference and getting the sound you want. You've lots of freedom unlike classical.

The first thing to learn would be to familiarise yourself with the different rhythm forms (or 'palos') as they are the basis of flamenco. You can do great rasgueados, smooth tremolos, play 'flamenco sounding' chords and scales. But it'll never be flamenco until you've got the rhythm.

Anyway good luck with flamenco. For me, it's been a very interesting experience, very different from classical which I also play, but also related in many ways.

Lastly, welcome to the forum! What you've found is a group of flamenco enthusiasts who are genuinely interested in learning from each other and teaching whatever they know.

Cheers,
Cheston

_____________________________

Try some Enrique Iglesias for some great cante.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 24 2005 14:34:13

Guest

RE: Learning flamenco guitar (in reply to Romanza)

Hola Romanza.

Look out for a post on this forum by Thomas Whiteley. He normally signs with a link to his website, which has a lot of fine flamenco material.

Also, get a DVD like the one Skai mentions. The fact that you can see what you are supposed to do helps a lot.

Good luck and welcome

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 24 2005 14:45:31

Romanza

Posts: 296
Joined: Oct. 24 2005

RE: Learning flamenco guitar (in reply to Romanza)

Hi Cheston
Thanks for that. I'm pleased to say that i have actually just purchased the Graf-Martinez book off e-bay (for about £50 less than it costs on Amazon!) - I'll look out for the DVDs too.
Looking forward to getting started
Cheers,
J

quote:

Gerhard Graf-Martinez

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 24 2005 14:48:36

Romanza

Posts: 296
Joined: Oct. 24 2005

RE: Learning flamenco guitar (in reply to Romanza)

Thanks Anders - I'll check that out too tonight.
J

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 24 2005 14:53:27

Thomas Whiteley

Posts: 786
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: Learning flamenco guitar (in reply to Romanza)

I like to recommend practicing technique before getting into palos. Start slow so as to not injure your hands and build up your strength slowly. Do not overdo anything. Remember pain is the bodies way to let you know that there is a problem. Two months spent learning basic technique will put you months ahead of others at the same level.

Why are there so many different flamenco techniques to do essentially the same thing? It has to do with tradition and how flamenco evolved. Over the last 150 years many different techniques have been devised according to need and preference. A guitarist, a family, neighborhood, city or province could use some of the same techniques.

If you study the rasgueados of Juan Serrano as an example you will find that Juan has his own “unique” way to perform many of his rasgueados. His father taught him and up until recently there were no books, videos or other means to show the masses what techniques exist for flamenco.

Beware of the teacher that insists that there is only one way to do anything. When you are beginning your flamenco journey and have a teacher you have little choice but to follow the advice of your teacher. When you go off to teach yourself you can learn a great deal.

It is important to find a good teacher at the beginning. If you cannot do that then use a DVD and book. Most important is to listen to flamenco. If you want to learn the essence of flamenco then devote yourself to traditional flamenco. If you want to play like Paco de Lucia, then do so. The choice is yours. My preference is to lay a good foundation before going off into unchartered waters.

There is flamenco and “flamenco like” music. The difference is great. Flamenco music is a way of life and “flamenco like” music is what people play to make money.

_____________________________

Tom
http://home.comcast.net/~flamencoguitar/flamenco.html

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 24 2005 23:42:30

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: Learning flamenco guitar (in reply to Romanza)

I learned all technics and did all trainings in dance classes. And the guitarrist whom I looked on the hands for the first couple of years was and still is so damn bad..

You culdnt imagine that he plays for dance and no dancer runs cryingly away. He has definetely the worst rascuardo techinc I´ve ever seen from a player who plays more the 5-6years for dance. Until today he plays as bad as in past...
I learned the theory from him. [I have to say that he now the theory very good. All the structures of the palos and traditional coplas and llamads. So he was very very helpfull to get all the basics!] (Yes and later I learned and still learn much in workshops and a bit during visiting Sevilla and much watching video...)

So when you have no chance to get a good teacher (as me in past), visit workshops and watch the hands of every player you see and try to copy it. Sometimes its bad to get a strict instuction from a teacher to hold your hands. Because all players have a different anatomy.
So sometimes its better to do a technic in a different way than the teacher does. You will find the way when you watch many different players doing the same technic.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 25 2005 9:27:54

Skai

Posts: 317
Joined: Sep. 12 2004

RE: Learning flamenco guitar (in reply to Romanza)

Oh I'm sorry!

I forgot about mentioning that you should learn techniques first due to the fact that I didn't learn compas until much later. In fact, I now realise that it was incidentally a good path to follow.

Anyway I hope you've got both volumes of the book instead of just the first. You'll have to be aware that volume one will take rather long to reach you. I ordered mine over a month ago and their stocks still have not arrived at their warehouse.

I'll give u guys a tip. I emailed Amazon.com recently about this issue and they've upped the shipping speed plus they aren't charging me for shipping too! So if anyone has ordered stuff and they're taking much longer than expected to arrive, just give them an email. You might get lucky like me.

Lastly, you must check out Anders' and Thomas' sites. Anders is a great and underrated guitar maker while Thomas has had lots of interation with great flamencos.

Cheston

_____________________________

Try some Enrique Iglesias for some great cante.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 25 2005 11:13:32

Romanza

Posts: 296
Joined: Oct. 24 2005

RE: Learning flamenco guitar (in reply to Romanza)

Thanks everyone for this very useful advice. I can't wait for my books to arrive so I can get started. I have been finding that other kinds of music seem somehow inadequate since I have started to listen to flamenco, my old cd collection is fast gathering dust!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 25 2005 13:36:11

Ryan002

Posts: 173
Joined: Oct. 18 2005
From: Singapore

RE: Learning flamenco guitar (in reply to Romanza)

Everything mentioned here (except the bit about avoiding pain

) is applicable not only to Flamenco, but to every other form of music.

The most difficult thing to do is to know when to walk away from a teacher, since the road away from the master's door is a dangerous one. Yet if we keep following our teachers we become only an echo of another person.

And sorry Thomas but my own view (though I must be quick to add that I am in no way exceptional and may in fact be totally wrong) is that pain is neccessary. I myself abandoned a teacher once because his "relax, don't overdo it" method simply hampered my progress. It was much later before I realized that my improvement is always dramatic only if I play to the point of pain, and virtually nonexistent otherwise.

So my opinion Romanza? Play. Play till it hurts, then play some more. If there is no pain, there is no progress. But this is merely the way I did it, and I do not profess that it is the right way so much as it is merely "a" way.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 25 2005 15:11:44

Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003

RE: Learning flamenco guitar (in reply to Ryan002)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ryan002
It was much later before I realized that my improvement is always dramatic only if I play to the point of pain, and virtually nonexistent otherwise.

So my opinion Romanza? Play. Play till it hurts, then play some more. If there is no pain, there is no progress.

This really is poor advice. You are advocating injury.

_____________________________

Spanish Guitarist in Devon, Cornwall and Somerset

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 25 2005 15:30:52

Mark2

Posts: 1882
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Learning flamenco guitar (in reply to Skai)

Have to disagree with Skai in that I think the best thing to learn first is compas. I didn't do it that way, but wish I had. So many people play flamenco guitar for YEARS without decent compas. Once you get in the habit of playing falsetas or pieces out of compas, it's just another mountain to climb when you realize it's something that has to be delt with. If you learn it from the start, as they do in Spain, you will be able to participate in flamenco a lot sooner. Spend as much time learning/practicing palmas(with and without recordings) as guitar technique in the first year or so and it will come together so much stronger.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 25 2005 17:08:52

Romanza

Posts: 296
Joined: Oct. 24 2005

RE: Learning flamenco guitar (in reply to Mark2)

I think we'll also be learning palmas in the guitar course I'm taking. Can you really learn good compas, or is it just inherent in some people? Thanks for all the advice everyone.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 25 2005 17:26:50

Ricardo

Posts: 14892
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Learning flamenco guitar (in reply to Romanza)

I feel compas is the deciding factor in the level of a player. The more advanced your understanding of compas, the more advanced a flamenco player you are. Compas is tempo and style. You can't be pro if you don't have tempo. What makes you good or unique or advanced or whatever, is the "style". Some folks don't have tempo, but you can actually learn it by using a metronome or drum machine. (I am living proof

). It may be natural for you, or it could take years. But in order to get the details of "style" you need to hang out with other flamencos who are good. For players even on the advanced level in flamenco, developing style is an ongoing learning experience that never ends.

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 25 2005 17:36:52

Mark2

Posts: 1882
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Learning flamenco guitar (in reply to Romanza)

Sure , some people have more talent than others whether your talking compas or basketball, but nobody is born knowing compas. Can you really "good compas"? Yeah, many people have. And some learned just decent compas, and some less than that or more than that. The point is to learn it, and to learn it as well as YOU can.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 25 2005 17:56:23

Thomas Whiteley

Posts: 786
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: Learning flamenco guitar (in reply to Ryan002)

quote:

pain is neccessary

To each his own. I have been playing flamenco guitar for over 45 years and have not enjoyed or experienced any pain or injuries. I have known several guitarists who insisted they should play through pain and each one tore tendons in the hand and can no longer play guitar.

Much of my playing has been accompaniment for baile y cante. I can play very loud due to the techniques I learned from Marino Cordoba, who was the guitarist for Antonio and the Spanish Ballet. It does not take great force to play loud. In fact you have to be relaxed to have control of the instrument.

I would hate to have someone injure themselves playing flamenco guitar. Common sense and an awareness and appreciation of your body is very important.

_____________________________

Tom
http://home.comcast.net/~flamencoguitar/flamenco.html

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2005 2:11:26

Ryan002

Posts: 173
Joined: Oct. 18 2005
From: Singapore

RE: Learning flamenco guitar (in reply to Romanza)

Talk of pain aside...I'd say compas should be learned first and in detail.

Personally I find that compas takes the longest to develop, since it is based on a sort of "internal feel" as opposed to some form of muscle movement. Physical techniques like rasaguedo, etc. can be developed naturally just by, well, doing them repeatedly. With compas, it's different. You really have to cultivate a "feel" for it because it's not like a musce you can exercise. And that's something that's not easily taught either. Start doing now if you haven't got it because it takes quite a while.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2005 6:12:52

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Learning flamenco guitar (in reply to Ryan002)

Also dont neglect 'listening"

Listen to every piece of flamenco you can get your hands on, listen to how they do things , what makes it what it is.

listening non stop to flamenco one day the light goes on and you have no idea how that happened, you know the light has gone on when you put a flamenco album on you never heard before playing a libre toque and you know exactly where the cante will start and you know where it ends and you know where the falseta comes and you know in wich tone the next letra is going to be in.

U cant play something unless you are able to visualise it first in your head, you cant visualise it in your head unless you have listened on how it is sopoosed to sound .

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2005 8:02:03

Romanza

Posts: 296
Joined: Oct. 24 2005

RE: Learning flamenco guitar (in reply to Romanza)

quote:

listening non stop to flamenco one day the light goes on and you have no idea how that happened,

well since I discovered PDL in May of this year (quite by accident, I was in Spain and my father asked me to look out a CD of his which they didn't have so I bought Almoraima instead on the recommendation of the man in the record shop - I have yet to hand it over!) - I have listened to PDL literally non-stop. I now have several albums to listen to because each one holds some new delight that I can listen to over and over again..

quote:

I realized that my improvement is always dramatic only if I play to the point of pain, and virtually nonexistent otherwise.

Not sure about extreme pain, but my fingertips are becoming sore and hardened, which I'm told is one of the first things that happens when you start to play in earnest! I presume that from now on the skin on my fingers will get tougher and tougher? Not very ladylike, but these are the sacrifices you have to make..

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2005 9:27:02

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: Learning flamenco guitar (in reply to Romanza)

quote:

I myself abandoned a teacher once because his "relax, don't overdo it" method simply hampered my progress

Pain isnt good, coz the next couple of days you cant play.. or you could get a tendosynovitis.. I was often colse to get it, but stopped playing in the last second. But allways when I train new stuff I play it for hours and I cant stop playing until it begins to hurt. Than I do a short pause and start again. Sometimes I use cold water to be able to go on playing. ^^ Ok its not good to practice like that when you dont know where the point is, where to stop to prevent injury... But for me it works fine.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2005 9:41:45

Kate

Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: Living in Granada, Andalucía

RE: Learning flamenco guitar (in reply to Romanza)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Romanza
Can you really learn good compas, or is it just inherent in some people?

One day at a dance rehearsal I was looking after a toddler, it was hard work as she was determined to escape me and jump on the stage. Once there she stamped her feet and clapped her hands, perfect timing, dummy in mouth and nappy hanging off her bum. I was astounded and would have had said that compas is inherent except I went on to see many parents with children playing clapping games. Only the other day I was watching a 21 day year old baby and the women had hold of her hands and were clapping them as they sang. A compás version of pat a cake !! Naturally the rhythm becomes second nature. I never thought I would ever get the compás but after many years now of hanging out with musicians the other day at a party I was pulled up to dance. Okay my arms were all over the place but my feet were hitting the floor in time and I realised I was getting there, slowly yes but it is possible.
Suerte

Kate

_____________________________

Emilio Maya Temple
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000CA6OBC
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/emiliomaya

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2005 10:34:37

Skai

Posts: 317
Joined: Sep. 12 2004

RE: Learning flamenco guitar (in reply to Romanza)

Wow Kate, that's one of the major factors as to why I respect and love flamenco so much. It's not just an art form or a type of music, it's a lifestyle.

Now as to why I think techniques should be worked on first. For a true flamenco, rhythm has been inbuilt for years so they learn techniques to fit into the rhythms they know. As for us, learning both at the same time can be rather overwhelming (I think

). So it might be a good idea to spend maybe 3 months on techniques before starting to learn compas in conjuction with technique practice. But I think it'll be much better to find your own working style.

Anyway as I always said, listening intensively is excellent brainwashing. For me, I look at the title of the song to find the name of the palo. I then learn to associate certain playing characteristics to certain palos.

Cheers,
Cheston

_____________________________

Try some Enrique Iglesias for some great cante.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2005 12:27:31

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: Learning flamenco guitar (in reply to Romanza)

Why do we learn in shool math, a language, physics, biology, religion, sport, and so on at the same time? Why not at first math,..than a language..? Because It would take too much time. So if somebody wants to become a good flamencoguitarrist..he or she have to learn all together from beginning.
And a baby which does 12compas palmas.. ^^ Nice story. But only a fairy story I think. My dog can bark the compas, too.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2005 13:52:22

Ryan002

Posts: 173
Joined: Oct. 18 2005
From: Singapore

RE: Learning flamenco guitar (in reply to Romanza)

Oh I dunno doitsujin. I have seen a 13 year old kid do a fantastic rendition of "Take Five" (a Jazz piece) on an electric. It's amazing how fast young minds absorb things compared to older minds, and that's not so much speculation as documented fact. Consider the fact that native English speakers are proficient in English usually by around age 4. This despite not possibly knowing the differance between a pronoun and an adverb. I think it's highly possible that a baby can grasp a particular rhythm that fast if he / she is immersed in the environment constantly.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2005 15:14:09

Kate

Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: Living in Granada, Andalucía

RE: Learning flamenco guitar (in reply to Doitsujin)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Doitsujin

Why do we learn in shool math, a language, physics, biology, religion, sport, and so on at the same time? Why not at first math,..than a language..? Because It would take too much time. So if somebody wants to become a good flamencoguitarrist..he or she have to learn all together from beginning.
And a baby which does 12compas palmas.. ^^ Nice story. But only a fairy story I think. My dog can bark the compas, too.

Have you heard of the Steiner method ? They do not learn everything together but take time to absorb each subject, combining maths with art, science with movement. But we are not talking here of school anyway but of absorbing at a mother's knee. And I was talking of a toddler, not a baby, 18 months and walking already, and yes compás. I dont post here to make up stories but really seriously if your dog can bark in compás, post a recording.

Kate

_____________________________

Emilio Maya Temple
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000CA6OBC
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/emiliomaya

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2005 17:27:53

JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005

RE: Learning flamenco guitar (in reply to Romanza)

quote:

but really seriously if your dog can bark in compás, post a recording.

LOL!

Who needs clapping or cajones?! when you can have Doitsujin's dog as an accompaniment... this could be the future of Flamenco!!!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2005 17:37:29

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Learning flamenco guitar (in reply to Romanza)

I think the discussion is not very usefull and the points that doit mentioned are weird. In school we learn everything together because the system wants it that way, not because its better to learn this way, what an absurd view

The human being learns best in STEPS, SLOWLY and in LITTLE pieces/units.
Everybody knows that and its already scientificly proved. So what to discuss?

_____________________________

Фламенко

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2005 17:39:43

Ricardo

Posts: 14892
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Learning flamenco guitar (in reply to Romanza)

I understand Doit's point. He is saying you should not try to learn COMPLETELY one subject, because different things complement each other, and can help you learn faster. You should not be learning techniques, and only techniques, separate from rhythm, or specifically, the flamenco compas. Doing Palmas is a technique as well. Rasgueados ARE compas, etc....Too many students can do the speedy legado, quick scales, loud rasgueados, but with no rhythmic feel. You can do a lot in flamenco with just a few techniques, if you have learned them as part of the compas. But if you have ZERO techniques, how can you produce a rhythm?

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2005 20:05:34

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Learning flamenco guitar (in reply to Ricardo)

Ricardo,
I would tend to agree that Flamenco knowledge/technique is an organic thing...one thing making sense of the other and growing together.
Kate does have a point though, that it easier to play Flamenco guitar at 14 when you don't really have to think at all about the rhythms....they've been there all your life.
All you've got to do is sit down and learn and refine guitar technique.

Anyway enough of this...

How did your group's concert tour go in the West Coast?
Was it just the one gig or several?
How did it go down?
Did you play any solos?

Tell us!

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2005 20:36:49

duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: Learning flamenco guitar (in reply to Ron.M)

why not play exersices in compas? I do that. Thumb exe,picado, cromatic warm-up.
Pick one palo and stum the chords practice rasgueados ,arpeggios etc in compas.
If it´s tooo fast, learn it first without any compas or thought of flamenco. then when you get the hang of it. Play it with a compas loop, to fast? make to loop slower.

_____________________________

This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2005 20:56:05