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estebanana

Posts: 9391
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: I'm leaving the off topics section (in reply to brandoscostumes

quote:

they know that bill they just had the misfortune to read howard zinn at some point in some lame poly-sci class and think it is at once the height of rebellious cool and intelligence to have these opinions


Actually if you stayed tuned more often and payed closer attention you would know that a few weeks back the august socialist Euro-intellgencia of the Foro held Howard Zinn in low opinion because they claimed he was a shill for US foreign policy.

\\LOL It helps to be au currant!

Also that Bill and Miguel know each other.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 8 2013 18:30:41
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Dyt båt dynamolygte (in reply to BarkellWH

Bill: sounds like we are in agreement about the term.

I would agree that those economies "work" in the sense that they energetically organize the populace according to the capitalist agenda. That is: further enrich elites, bulldoze existing structures and bring in large corporations to rebuild them, quickly and irrevocably despoil the environment, replace local traditions with Western commercial values, accelerate and enlarge income disparity between rich and poor. Of course, it all depends on more and more oil, a rapidly disappearing natural resource.

Stephen: I don't know if we are desperate for heroes, so much as anyone who will resist the corporate/bankster/Western onslaught.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 8 2013 18:44:28
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3462
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: I'm leaving the off topics section (in reply to brandoscostumes

quote:

they know that bill they just had the misfortune to read howard zinn at some point in some lame poly-sci class and think it is at once the height of rebellious cool and intelligence to have these opinions


Among historians and academics on the Left, I actually think Howard Zinn is a breath of fresh air compared to, say, Noam Chomsky or Oliver Stone and his latest ten-part series, "The Untold History of the United States." Chomsky is an academic who should have stuck with his original field of linguistics, rather than get wrapped around the ideological axle. About the best that can be said for Oliver Stone is that he is a poseur masquerading as a historian, begging for approval by conspiracy theorists.

Cheers,

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 8 2013 19:06:18
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3462
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Dyt båt dynamolygte (in reply to Miguel de Maria

quote:

I would agree that those economies "work" in the sense that they energetically organize the populace according to the capitalist agenda.


And they all, every one of them (some for decades), have expanding middle classes where there were none to speak of before.

Cheers,

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 8 2013 19:12:28
 
estebanana

Posts: 9391
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: I'm leaving the off topics section (in reply to BarkellWH

quote:

quote:

they know that bill they just had the misfortune to read howard zinn at some point in some lame poly-sci class and think it is at once the height of rebellious cool and intelligence to have these opinions

________________________________


Among historians and academics on the Left, I actually think Howard Zinn is a breath of fresh air compared to, say, Noam Chomsky or Oliver Stone and his latest ten-part series, "The Untold History of the United States." Chomsky is an academic who should have stuck with his original field of linguistics, rather than get wrapped around the ideological axle. About the best that can be said for Oliver Stone is that he is a poseur masquerading as a historian, begging for approval by conspiracy theorists.

Cheers,

Bill


My point about that post in the upper half is that it seems dismissive in the sense that it is implying that Foro members are simply expressing 'radical chic' by posting flavor of the month revisionist history in an attempt to impress. I don't think anyone here is posting radical ideas for sake of posting them. I think everyone tries to reason out a point of view and does not simply regurgitate from a particular historian. I don't agree with some of them and I think some ideas presented are way off base, but I never think anyone is doing it to be theoretically fashionable.

I hate to admit it, but I think everyone here is actually too mature to resort to posting fashionable politics over substance. Even those who views I don't like.

Seeing that one person looks at Howard Zinn as a piece for the US government and another calls his work a leftist abomination just shows how much there is to disagree on when it comes to vetting sources for facts or information.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 8 2013 19:18:37
 
estebanana

Posts: 9391
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Dyt båt dynamolygte (in reply to Miguel de Maria

quote:

Stephen: I don't know if we are desperate for heroes, so much as anyone who will resist the corporate/bankster/Western onslaught.


Chavez did not do that, he postured and ripped off his countrymen. He was able to to float that anti US etc. rhetoric because as Bill said he had the mandate of oil money.

If he had been in Chile where they actually have to be careful with resources, he would have never survived politically. In Chile they don't have oil money, they have agriculture and nitrates from the Andes. The Chileans have a stable economy because they utilized what they have with spartan perseverance.

Think about that for a while.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 8 2013 19:25:26
 
Northern Rock

Posts: 87
Joined: Oct. 12 2008
From: London UK

RE: Dyt båt dynamolygte (in reply to Anders Eliasson

Anders if you dont like the off topic posts then why go there. I think most , but not all of it , is a wast of time and space , but thats the point , its off topic and its up to other people what they want to talk about,
Frankly I wouldnt waste my time and you could question why we have politics on a International Music site , seems we might wade into some serious trouble one day, but hey till then let them get on with it............. Im off to practise my guitar , I need to.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 9 2013 0:34:48
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Dyt båt dynamolygte (in reply to estebanana

If he would not have resisted the neoliberal consensus, he would be not be a western media bogeyman. Leaders don't get in trouble for ripping off their country but for ripping off the elite, mostly foreigners, who own it. And I'm sorry, I don't understand your or Bill's point about the oil. Of course he could only pursue his agenda because of the power that oil gave him. Nor do I see how Chile is a natural comparison. Cuba is better, one of the other few "rogue nations" that has resisted turning over its autonomy to the West.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 9 2013 3:29:39
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: I'm leaving the off topics section (in reply to Leñador

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lenador

quote:

Yeah, uhm, no. Because you have to have lived in the nazi regime to have an opinion on it, right? RIGHT?


That's A LOT more black & white. Even the family that hated Ortega didn't mention racial genocide, if so it would've made having an opinion much easier.




Lenador. I have no knowledge in Latin American history and not planning to study it in any near future so i cant comment on Ortega or whatever. But the idea that you have to have "lived" anything to have an opinion on it is the worst thing i have heard in my entire life. All you need to have o get an opinion is empirical facts and a theory that explains those facts. The experience of having lived in a country can help regarding the gathering of the facts (it will NOT with the theory side), but with the means of communication today and the news available it is not a requirement. If personal, subjective experience would be a neccessity to have an opinion on something, then 99% of maths and physics would be irrelevant for example.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 9 2013 10:48:03
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: I'm leaving the off topics section (in reply to estebanana

A note to the hippocrisy in this thread: one might pay attention how certain people act like economic advisors for Chavez, as if the wealth of Venezuela was a dear to their hearts. That is of course a lie which is shown in the comments about the usage of oil as a ressource. Chavez is evil and ANY resource he uses is an illegitimate usage of that. This way nobody really cares whether he set up a free health care and education system. Its all evil what he does, because he is evil.*
As long as countries provide the ressources or fullfill any other interests the "west", ie the developed capitalistic states, has in them, their leaders can be as brutal as they want to their people. Nobdy really cares. Whole Africa works like that and is nothing more than an exploitable mine. But god forbid if you dont let investors in your country, or even try to introduce a healthcare system for free, that is a big crime.

*) in this regard my comment about the free press and media and its effect on the people actually varifies itself.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 9 2013 11:05:10
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3462
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Dyt båt dynamolygte (in reply to Miguel de Maria

quote:

Of course he could only pursue his agenda because of the power that oil gave him. Nor do I see how Chile is a natural comparison. Cuba is better, one of the other few "rogue nations" that has resisted turning over its autonomy to the West.


Miguel, the point about Chavez being able to pursue his agenda because of Venezuela's vast reserves of oil is that the income from the oil cushioned the economic disaster chavez's policies have visited upon the country. Even with the oil, Venezuela is experiencing rampant inflation, shortages of everything from food to consumer goods, capital outflow (to Miami banks), and a host of other problems. The income from the oil allowed him to pursue his populist, Leftist policies of nationalization, expropriation, and driving out foreign direct investment without totally driving Venezuela into the ground. In other words, it was the oil income, not Chavez's policies, that prevented a total economic meltdown. Were there no oil, Chavez would have destroyed Venezuela's economy without having anything to give to the poor.

The reason Chile is a natural comparison is because Chile is a country that has pursued an open market, free enterprise economy that welcomes foreign investment and has prospered as a result. It is a country whose thriving economy and vibrant growth as a free-market economy is the natural comparison to Venezuela, whose closed market, socialist, nationalized economy is resulting in the opposite. To compare Cuba to Venezuela is to compare two countries that are more or less on the same track. Cuba is an economic basket case, largely as a result of the Cuban Goverhment's absolute control over political and economic activity, and it was Chavez's model, so there is no mystery why Venezuela is headed in the same diredtion. That Cuba has "resisted turning over its autonomy to the West" is no argument for the economic basket case it became long ago under Castro's absolute command over the Cuban system. A country can enter into the international system, welcome foreign direct investment, open up its economy, and prosper without "turning over its autonomy to the West."

I lived in Santiago, Chile for three years, and I can personally attest to the thriving economy and well-being of most Chilenos. I also lived for four years in Kuala lumpur, Malaysia and four years in Jakarta, Indonesia. Those countries, and others that have adopted the free market system, are thriving. I certainly do not think that Chile, Malaysia, Indonesia, Singapore, Taiwan, South Korea, and the Big Kahuna, China, (all of whom, to a greater or lesser extent, have adopted free-market economic policies) think they have "turned over their autonomy to the West."

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 9 2013 11:21:23
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Dyt båt dynamolygte (in reply to Northern Rock

quote:


Anders if you dont like the off topic posts then why go there. I think most , but not all of it , is a wast of time and space , but thats the point , its off topic and its up to other people what they want to talk about,
Frankly I wouldnt waste my time and you could question why we have politics on a International Music site , seems we might wade into some serious trouble one day, but hey till then let them get on with it............. Im off to practise my guitar , I need to.


It sounds like a good advice that I will follow.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 9 2013 12:03:42
 
mezzo

Posts: 1409
Joined: Feb. 18 2010
From: .fr

RE: I'm leaving the off topics section (in reply to estebanana

For me, the most interesting thing about Chavez figure is to focus on how the mainstream medias in all the western world reported his policies and how they portrayed him.
Miguel pointed this out for the US. The same could be said for Spain or France.
I think it tells us a lot about our political systems. Where the informations feeded to citizens are subordinated to Corporate interests in the first place.

Also, it reveals IMO one of the mainstream thought particularity which is the lack of real debate inside the so-called coutervailing pillar.
The smokescreen is that, one could have the feeling that debates are going on, clash and argumentations are frequents between experts in economics or politics. And that one could choose between alternatives.

But this simulacre vanished precisely when it cames to Chavez analysis.
Chavez must not be considered as part of the debate and therefore he was excluded of it and DEMONIZED as much as possible.
I think it's a constant variable in the whole western mainstream voices (owned by Corporations aka free-market fundamentalists mindset).


Chavez Wasted His Money on Healthcare When He Could Have Built Gigantic Skyscrapers
"Chavez invested Venezuela's oil wealth into social programs including state-run food markets, cash benefits for poor families, free health clinics and education programs. But those gains were meager compared with the spectacular construction projects that oil riches spurred in glittering Middle Eastern cities, including the world's tallest building in Dubai and plans for branches of the Louvre and Guggenheim museums in Abu Dhabi." (Associated Press business reporter Pamela Sampson)

Think about that for a while!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 9 2013 12:52:17
 
guitarbuddha

 

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: Dyt båt dynamolygte (in reply to BarkellWH

I find it depressing that a clear plea for decency from a man in pain should fail to find any.

Of all my failings a lack my kindness shames me most.

D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 9 2013 13:09:00
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: I'm leaving the off topics section (in reply to estebanana

quote:

Lenador. I have no knowledge in Latin American history and not planning to study it in any near future so i cant comment on Ortega or whatever. But the idea that you have to have "lived" anything to have an opinion on it is the worst thing i have heard in my entire life. All you need to have o get an opinion is empirical facts and a theory that explains those facts. The experience of having lived in a country can help regarding the gathering of the facts (it will NOT with the theory side), but with the means of communication today and the news available it is not a requirement. If personal, subjective experience would be a neccessity to have an opinion on something, then 99% of maths and physics would be irrelevant for example.

The worst thing you've heard in your entire life? What about kittens in a microwave? That's seems worse to me...
It wasn't a blanket statement meant to fit every situation.

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\m/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 9 2013 13:51:03
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: I'm leaving the off topics section (in reply to Leñador

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lenador
It wasn't a blanket statement meant to fit every situation.



I thought we were talking about Chavez and his policies and about your statement one couldnt judge them without having lived in Venezuela. That is a very specific situation and statement.

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Фламенко
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 9 2013 14:23:46
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Dyt båt dynamolygte (in reply to BarkellWH

I understand your point of view, Bill, and thanks for taking the time. No doubt, the neo-liberal system has a lot going for it. I am just not comfortable with the negative aspects that go hand-in-hand with it. That is: the creation of ever-growing income disparities, the more efficient despoilation of the environment, the financialization of all institutions, the homogenization and eradication of unique culture. In other words, I am not keen on a world that has been bulldozed, covered in concrete, and owned by absentee stockholders. Sooner rather than later, there is nothing more to pave, and no more oil left to pave it with. Then what?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 9 2013 14:42:19
 
brandoscostumes

 

Posts: 47
Joined: Aug. 28 2010
 

RE: I'm leaving the off topics section (in reply to estebanana

^ more leftist garbage that would only come from someone who takes for granted the luxuries of a first-world lifestyle. china may have lifted hundreds of millions of people from poverty but it gives such a warm feeling to think youre really advocating on the behalf of oppressed peoples and their quaint traditional way of life (tilling mud).
the 'ever-widening' disparity of incomes is another myth perpetuated every time the media reports on it by comparing artificial 'brackets' rather than actual humans. if you actually care about poor people learn some economics. preventing development or hindering the market in other ways drives up prices and forces people to move. did you know the US federal government owns enough land assets to pay off the entire national debt 10 times over?

and i didnt doubt the sincerity of these people, i suggested that people are drawn to these ideas because of their personality, which is often influenced by age. no one could believe 9/11 conspiracy theories for example if they didn't already hate george bush.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 9 2013 15:35:19
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3462
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Dyt båt dynamolygte (in reply to Miguel de Maria

quote:

No doubt, the neo-liberal system has a lot going for it. I am just not comfortable with the negative aspects that go hand-in-hand with it. That is: ... the homogenization and eradication of unique culture.


I get exactly what your driving at, Miguel, and you will be surprised to learn that I share your discomfort at some of the aspects that go along with what I would call a modern economy. I do not say "capitalist, free market" economy, because I think the so-called "negative" aspects are found in any economy in the modern world, capitalist, socialist, or communist. It does not matter whether the state owns and controls the means of production or private enterprise; to log out a pristine tropical rainforest to sell hardwood to Japan depletes the forest in either case.

Regarding the homogenization and eradication of unique culture, I have an interesting perspective on that issue, as my wife Marta (who is from Brazil) has a PhD in Medical Anthropology and has taught university courses on Health and Culture for many years. I have debated this very issue with her and her anthropology colleagues on many occasions. They, like you, bemoan the fact that indigenous cultures are shedding many of their traditional ways as they enter the modern world. Again, I emphasize the "modern" world, not capitalist, free market economies. It is not capitalism that changes indigenous peoples; it is modernity. My take is that you, my wife Marta, and others of a similar persuasion have an overly romantic view of indigenous cultures, and I would go so far as to say (and I have gone so far as to say) that such an attitude wants to preserve indigenous cultures in amber for your own personal pleasure. Your romantic attitudes toward indigenous cultures resists the idea that they might want television, automobiles, clean water, modern health care, entry into the modern economy, and other things that we take for granted. But to have those things changes their culture as they delve deeper into what is available in modern societies.

I'll end this with an experience I had while assigned to the American Embassy in Jakarta, Indonesia. Part of my portfolio involved maintaining contact with an American copper and gold mining company that had a huge operation in what was then known as Irian Jaya (now known as West Papua) on the Indonesian half of the island of New Guinea. the personnel structure was such that Americans held the top management and operational positions, Javanese held the middle management and operational positions, and, as you might imagine, local tribesmen held the lowest positions. these indigenous tribesmen were, and still are, among the most primitive in the world.

In 1996, the local tribal employees (Dani and Amungme tribes) rioted, shooting bows and arrows, throwing spears and rocks, and generally causing widespread damage, although no Americans were injured. Right away, Australian NGOs, who had never liked the company, crowed about the riots, stating that they demonstrated how much the local tribesmen resented the company disrupting their culture and the environment. I immediately flew out to Irian Jaya to the mining company's HQ to assess the damage and talk to people to ascertain what caused the riots and what might be done to prevent such an occurrence in the future. I talked to many people, including several "Head Men," leaders of the tribal employees involved in the riots. To a man, they indicated that the cause of the riots was the company never promoted indigenous tribal employees to higher level positions, and the company had no training program in place to train them for higher level positions. After meetings between company management and indigenous "Head Men," the company implemented a training program and began the process of advancing some of the locals up the ladder.

The moral of this tale is the Australian NGOs had it completely wrong. They wanted to preserve the indigenous culture in amber for their own edification. They were imposing their own vision of how they wanted the Dani and Amungme to be without regard to what the tribes actually wanted, which was to have the possibility of advancement. That's not to say that indigenous cultures should completely shed their traditional culture, but it is to say that modernity changes culture, and most indigenous people want at least a part of modernity.

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 9 2013 18:20:19
 
Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: I'm leaving the off topics section (in reply to estebanana

I don't know anyone from Venezuela, so I can't get any real facts on this Chavez guy.
You would honestly have to be pretty naive to believe every pile of crap the western media spits out. Do you have to have "lived it" to have a truth based opinion on things? Ya pretty much these days. There is an old saying, "believe nothing you hear, and only half of what you see".
Looking at recent headlines, I see the North Korean leader threatens nuclear weapons strikes against the US. Really? Wouldn't the US be on purple alert? If it is true Obama please stop being a pussy and send a nuke up his butt so I can watch the smoke come out his ears. I don't care Obama if Kim Jon-Il jr is the sexiest man alive, if he sends nuclear weapons your way, the fallout could ruin my summer

Oh, and a dead douche is still a douche, being worm food is no entitlement for sainthood, nor respect. Since I cannot speak personally of Chavez, he will just remain a dead guy to me.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 9 2013 19:41:00
 
Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: I'm leaving the off topics section (in reply to estebanana

for all the people that viewed his as a dictator and hated him so much there sure seems to a lot of people that went to pay their respects, 2.000.000 and his body is being embalmed


I know.... western media (but americans are supposed to dislike him) ... I am sure they didn't pay 2000000 extras to make him look popular..

This is not my uninformed opinion ( i kept my own out of it since i don't usually speak out loud and with conviction on things i dont know about... and il be the first to admit... i dont know what goes on there)...but one would assume Venezuelans themselves know how they feel about their dead dictator who they hate...or maybe they just need to be reminded that they hate him...


I know that we hated Ceausescu so much so that noone even mentioned or would have wanted his body embalmed...was apart of our history we all wanted to forghet



http://www.democracynow.org/2013/3/8/hugo_chavez_funeral_derided_by_us

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 9 2013 19:59:51
 
estebanana

Posts: 9391
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: I'm leaving the off topics section (in reply to estebanana

For those of you who have not read anything in the last twenty years, some Western media propaganda in the form of British humor. Actual Economist cover, remember this one?

Call Team America Stat!




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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 9 2013 20:12:52
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: I'm leaving the off topics section (in reply to Sean

Nuking North Korea is not an option. From previous foro discussions we know that nukes "save lives".

Stephen, i like how under the title "After Assad" it says "Tomorrow's stockmarkets" :) Saving dat picture.

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Фламенко
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 9 2013 20:14:59
 
estebanana

Posts: 9391
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: I'm leaving the off topics section (in reply to brandoscostumes

quote:

^ more leftist garbage that would only come from someone who takes for granted the luxuries of a first-world lifestyle. china may have lifted hundreds of millions of people from poverty but it gives such a warm feeling to think youre really advocating on the behalf of oppressed peoples and their quaint traditional way of life (tilling mud).


I call it Curb and Gutter Entitlement thinking. It's not actually a leftie thing, plenty of conservatives are afflicted with it.

I went school in China, funny thing is, they really did not pay too much attention to me because I was not in international development. When I was there at the end of the hardline communist era the buzzwords in any city were 'Joint Venture'. It's almost comical to me that anyone would think of Chavez solved anything by these posturing stand ups to these Western supposed economic villains when the biggest most influential communist country China was trying to embrace them 25 years ago. The Chinese at the time were worried about feeding everyone, and sure they played to grandstand and severely berated the US and the entire West. While out the back door they were extending a hand and making as many trade deals and joint venture project deals as possible.

I can only chalk it up to the fact the I have traveled, been educated in and lived in more countries than most people. You see what you see and you know what you know, and you really can't convince someone unless they have the same perspective from having abroad base of experience. I took my licks from many a Chinese person who told me to stop looking at the world through Western eyes, while at the same time they were wanting that Ferrari much more than me. In Hang Zhou the city I was in there was a nice cozy pre- Communist era apartment block with old courtyards and a mix of middle class folks. Now it has been torn down and in place of it a Maserati dealership.

And if you think a bunch of people filling the streets to honor a thief is proof of his pureness you only need to thumb back through the pages of history thirty five years and see peasants tearing each other apart to touch the shroud of the Ayatollah Khomeni or get a glimpse of Ferdinand Marcos while they were on the way to be buried. I know Persians and Filipinos who were gleeful to see those men gone, but they were in exile could not march or express opposition under threat of death had they been in Iran.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 9 2013 20:37:59
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3462
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: I'm leaving the off topics section (in reply to estebanana

quote:

For those of you who have not read anything in the last twenty years, some Western media propaganda in the form of British humor. Actual Economist cover, remember this one?


Thank you, Stephen, for providing the perfect example of how the Western media twist and distort the idealism and accomplishments of those, such as Kim Jong Il, who do not march to the neo-liberal drumbeat. To read that issue of the economist, one would never guess that North Korea is filled with happy, smiling, well-fed citizens living in a paradise while harvesting their abundant crops and working in well-paid manufacturing positions, with the prospect of a full pension upon retirement. We are indeed victims of a nefarious plot to brainwash us.

(Actually, that was a great cover! Perhaps Dennis Rodman would benefit by reading the article. He was certainly taken in by Kim Jong Eun!)

Cheers,

Bill

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And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 9 2013 20:43:33
 
estebanana

Posts: 9391
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: I'm leaving the off topics section (in reply to XXX

quote:

Stephen, i like how under the title "After Assad" it says "Tomorrow's stockmarkets" :) Saving dat picture.


The Economist could run the same cover next week with his crazy son in place of him. And also include the lead to the article: After Assad

Same stuff, different decade. Two sons that have inherited disasterous and stale isolationist regimes.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 9 2013 20:44:35
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: I'm leaving the off topics section (in reply to estebanana

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

quote:

Stephen, i like how under the title "After Assad" it says "Tomorrow's stockmarkets" :) Saving dat picture.


The Economist could run the same cover next week with his crazy son in place of him. And also include the lead to the article: After Assad

Same stuff, different decade. Two sons that have inherited disasterous and stale isolationist regimes.


Yeah i have no doubt they will continue economical, political and military actions against "isolationist regimes" for their own economical interests within the next decades. Money is a holy sanctum in capitalism. Praise the stockmarkets! :)

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Фламенко
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 9 2013 20:57:25
 
estebanana

Posts: 9391
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: I'm leaving the off topics section (in reply to XXX

quote:

Nuking North Korea is not an option. From previous foro discussions we know that nukes "save lives".


But if North Korea nuked South Korea they would be correcting 50 years of errant behavior on the part of the South Koreans, the DMZ could be dismantled and Korea could be whole again.

Yep nukes save lives for sure. Not to mention passing unwanted fallout to Japan, China and Russia.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 9 2013 20:57:59
 
estebanana

Posts: 9391
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: I'm leaving the off topics section (in reply to XXX

quote:

Praise the stockmarkets! :)


That is what I say too and also the Chinese too, who have been pleading with the US and Japan to stop devaluing the currency. China wants to be in the market too, how unfair for the West. Ha ha

North Korea is welcome to be peacefully isolationist, but they will have to stop threatening South Korea. For the most part everyone, meaning diplomats world wide from almost every country, leave North Korea alone because they are too crazy to negotiate with. But if they threaten to attack South Korea it's that gang of thugs at the top of the country who are being provocative, not the people. Even China wants North Korea to settle down. The heads of state in NK have an inferority complex and a standing army not a good combo.

But you are also welcome to go there for some chill time. Hmm boy I bet that would be fun. Maybe you'll even get wall to wall whores and fine dinners like Dennis Rodman.




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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 9 2013 21:00:13
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: I'm leaving the off topics section (in reply to estebanana

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

quote:

Nuking North Korea is not an option. From previous foro discussions we know that nukes "save lives".


But if North Korea nuked South Korea they would be correcting 50 years of errant behavior on the part of the South Koreans, the DMZ could be dismantled and Korea could be whole again.

Yep nukes save lives for sure. Not to mention passing unwanted fallout to Japan, China and Russia.


Err, nope. The logic behind "nukes saving lives" is that it saves the lives in the country where it lands. So nuking South Korea would save lives in South Korea. Why would North Korea want to save lives in South Korea?

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Фламенко
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 9 2013 21:00:39
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