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RE: I'm leaving the off topics section
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3464
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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 RE: I'm leaving the off topics section (in reply to brandoscostumes)
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quote:
they know that bill they just had the misfortune to read howard zinn at some point in some lame poly-sci class and think it is at once the height of rebellious cool and intelligence to have these opinions
Among historians and academics on the Left, I actually think Howard Zinn is a breath of fresh air compared to, say, Noam Chomsky or Oliver Stone and his latest ten-part series, "The Untold History of the United States." Chomsky is an academic who should have stuck with his original field of linguistics, rather than get wrapped around the ideological axle. About the best that can be said for Oliver Stone is that he is a poseur masquerading as a historian, begging for approval by conspiracy theorists.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Mar. 8 2013 19:06:18
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3464
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Dyt båt dynamolygte (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
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quote:
Of course he could only pursue his agenda because of the power that oil gave him. Nor do I see how Chile is a natural comparison. Cuba is better, one of the other few "rogue nations" that has resisted turning over its autonomy to the West.
Miguel, the point about Chavez being able to pursue his agenda because of Venezuela's vast reserves of oil is that the income from the oil cushioned the economic disaster chavez's policies have visited upon the country. Even with the oil, Venezuela is experiencing rampant inflation, shortages of everything from food to consumer goods, capital outflow (to Miami banks), and a host of other problems. The income from the oil allowed him to pursue his populist, Leftist policies of nationalization, expropriation, and driving out foreign direct investment without totally driving Venezuela into the ground. In other words, it was the oil income, not Chavez's policies, that prevented a total economic meltdown. Were there no oil, Chavez would have destroyed Venezuela's economy without having anything to give to the poor.
The reason Chile is a natural comparison is because Chile is a country that has pursued an open market, free enterprise economy that welcomes foreign investment and has prospered as a result. It is a country whose thriving economy and vibrant growth as a free-market economy is the natural comparison to Venezuela, whose closed market, socialist, nationalized economy is resulting in the opposite. To compare Cuba to Venezuela is to compare two countries that are more or less on the same track. Cuba is an economic basket case, largely as a result of the Cuban Goverhment's absolute control over political and economic activity, and it was Chavez's model, so there is no mystery why Venezuela is headed in the same diredtion. That Cuba has "resisted turning over its autonomy to the West" is no argument for the economic basket case it became long ago under Castro's absolute command over the Cuban system. A country can enter into the international system, welcome foreign direct investment, open up its economy, and prosper without "turning over its autonomy to the West."
I lived in Santiago, Chile for three years, and I can personally attest to the thriving economy and well-being of most Chilenos. I also lived for four years in Kuala lumpur, Malaysia and four years in Jakarta, Indonesia. Those countries, and others that have adopted the free market system, are thriving. I certainly do not think that Chile, Malaysia, Indonesia, Singapore, Taiwan, South Korea, and the Big Kahuna, China, (all of whom, to a greater or lesser extent, have adopted free-market economic policies) think they have "turned over their autonomy to the West."
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Mar. 9 2013 11:21:23
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Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
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RE: Dyt båt dynamolygte (in reply to BarkellWH)
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I understand your point of view, Bill, and thanks for taking the time. No doubt, the neo-liberal system has a lot going for it. I am just not comfortable with the negative aspects that go hand-in-hand with it. That is: the creation of ever-growing income disparities, the more efficient despoilation of the environment, the financialization of all institutions, the homogenization and eradication of unique culture. In other words, I am not keen on a world that has been bulldozed, covered in concrete, and owned by absentee stockholders. Sooner rather than later, there is nothing more to pave, and no more oil left to pave it with. Then what?
_____________________________
Connect with me on Facebook, all the cool kids are doing it.
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Arizona Wedding Music Guitar
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Date Mar. 9 2013 14:42:19
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3464
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Dyt båt dynamolygte (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
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quote:
No doubt, the neo-liberal system has a lot going for it. I am just not comfortable with the negative aspects that go hand-in-hand with it. That is: ... the homogenization and eradication of unique culture.
I get exactly what your driving at, Miguel, and you will be surprised to learn that I share your discomfort at some of the aspects that go along with what I would call a modern economy. I do not say "capitalist, free market" economy, because I think the so-called "negative" aspects are found in any economy in the modern world, capitalist, socialist, or communist. It does not matter whether the state owns and controls the means of production or private enterprise; to log out a pristine tropical rainforest to sell hardwood to Japan depletes the forest in either case.
Regarding the homogenization and eradication of unique culture, I have an interesting perspective on that issue, as my wife Marta (who is from Brazil) has a PhD in Medical Anthropology and has taught university courses on Health and Culture for many years. I have debated this very issue with her and her anthropology colleagues on many occasions. They, like you, bemoan the fact that indigenous cultures are shedding many of their traditional ways as they enter the modern world. Again, I emphasize the "modern" world, not capitalist, free market economies. It is not capitalism that changes indigenous peoples; it is modernity. My take is that you, my wife Marta, and others of a similar persuasion have an overly romantic view of indigenous cultures, and I would go so far as to say (and I have gone so far as to say) that such an attitude wants to preserve indigenous cultures in amber for your own personal pleasure. Your romantic attitudes toward indigenous cultures resists the idea that they might want television, automobiles, clean water, modern health care, entry into the modern economy, and other things that we take for granted. But to have those things changes their culture as they delve deeper into what is available in modern societies.
I'll end this with an experience I had while assigned to the American Embassy in Jakarta, Indonesia. Part of my portfolio involved maintaining contact with an American copper and gold mining company that had a huge operation in what was then known as Irian Jaya (now known as West Papua) on the Indonesian half of the island of New Guinea. the personnel structure was such that Americans held the top management and operational positions, Javanese held the middle management and operational positions, and, as you might imagine, local tribesmen held the lowest positions. these indigenous tribesmen were, and still are, among the most primitive in the world.
In 1996, the local tribal employees (Dani and Amungme tribes) rioted, shooting bows and arrows, throwing spears and rocks, and generally causing widespread damage, although no Americans were injured. Right away, Australian NGOs, who had never liked the company, crowed about the riots, stating that they demonstrated how much the local tribesmen resented the company disrupting their culture and the environment. I immediately flew out to Irian Jaya to the mining company's HQ to assess the damage and talk to people to ascertain what caused the riots and what might be done to prevent such an occurrence in the future. I talked to many people, including several "Head Men," leaders of the tribal employees involved in the riots. To a man, they indicated that the cause of the riots was the company never promoted indigenous tribal employees to higher level positions, and the company had no training program in place to train them for higher level positions. After meetings between company management and indigenous "Head Men," the company implemented a training program and began the process of advancing some of the locals up the ladder.
The moral of this tale is the Australian NGOs had it completely wrong. They wanted to preserve the indigenous culture in amber for their own edification. They were imposing their own vision of how they wanted the Dani and Amungme to be without regard to what the tribes actually wanted, which was to have the possibility of advancement. That's not to say that indigenous cultures should completely shed their traditional culture, but it is to say that modernity changes culture, and most indigenous people want at least a part of modernity.
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Mar. 9 2013 18:20:19
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Sean
Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada
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RE: I'm leaving the off topics section (in reply to estebanana)
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I don't know anyone from Venezuela, so I can't get any real facts on this Chavez guy.
You would honestly have to be pretty naive to believe every pile of crap the western media spits out. Do you have to have "lived it" to have a truth based opinion on things? Ya pretty much these days. There is an old saying, "believe nothing you hear, and only half of what you see".
Looking at recent headlines, I see the North Korean leader threatens nuclear weapons strikes against the US. Really? Wouldn't the US be on purple alert? If it is true Obama please stop being a pussy and send a nuke up his butt so I can watch the smoke come out his ears. I don't care Obama if Kim Jon-Il jr is the sexiest man alive, if he sends nuclear weapons your way, the fallout could ruin my summer 
Oh, and a dead douche is still a douche, being worm food is no entitlement for sainthood, nor respect. Since I cannot speak personally of Chavez, he will just remain a dead guy to me.
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Date Mar. 9 2013 19:41:00
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3464
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: I'm leaving the off topics section (in reply to estebanana)
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quote:
For those of you who have not read anything in the last twenty years, some Western media propaganda in the form of British humor. Actual Economist cover, remember this one?
Thank you, Stephen, for providing the perfect example of how the Western media twist and distort the idealism and accomplishments of those, such as Kim Jong Il, who do not march to the neo-liberal drumbeat. To read that issue of the economist, one would never guess that North Korea is filled with happy, smiling, well-fed citizens living in a paradise while harvesting their abundant crops and working in well-paid manufacturing positions, with the prospect of a full pension upon retirement. We are indeed victims of a nefarious plot to brainwash us.
(Actually, that was a great cover! Perhaps Dennis Rodman would benefit by reading the article. He was certainly taken in by Kim Jong Eun!)
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Mar. 9 2013 20:43:33
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