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Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
Nino de Pura and Flamenco Lite
I have to disclaim this that I only have heard Pozo y Caudal by Nino de Pura, but that album is pretty "lite". Sure, there are bulerias and even some cante jondo-like stuff, but for the most part it is very "commercial"--lots of backup singers and horns and catchy melodies. I have no problem with this, and actually I like the album. It is exciting and fun if you can get past the backup singers, whose presence sometimes is a bit too cheesy. And of course el Nino plays magnficiently, his everpresent picados soaring and his instrumental choruses hard to get out of your head. Actually, I wonder why there can't be more of this.
In the "Flamenco Lite" category, you might put Nino de Pura and perhaps the Gipsy Kings and Ottmar Liebert and Jesse Cook. This type of music has proven to be very popular, at least here in the States. I like the Gipsy Kings, but in terms of instrumental music, there is a huge lack of quality. With as fun and catchy as Nino de Pura is, why couldn't he make a big hit over here if Esteban can?
This is not meant to be a slam on Nino de Pura at all, but I see it as an opportunity. I don't question his credentials as a "serious" flamenco player, but with his style and abilities, I could see him making a lot of money and bringing flamenco to a lot of people who wouldn't otherwise be intersted. I mean, a lot of people's bulerias sounds like heavy metal, but when you hear Nino's, you cna't help but smile because of the humor he brings to it. Isn't bulerias supposed to have a twinkle in your eye?
When you hear the pale imitations of flamenco around here, and then compare it to Nino de Pura, the level of quality is not even close... It would be cool if he or someone like him became popular over here and supplanted or at least threatened the rule of the "Flamenco Like" guitarists.
RE: Nino de Pura and Flamenco Lite (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
Miguel I understand what you are saing and that you are not slaming him but at the end of the day Vicente has more chance of doing that , his sound is alot closer to comerical then Nino's who is somewhere between Vicente and Sanlucar imo.
I think that for anything to be comercial succes in the west it has to be simple catchy and repeat the melody atlist 3 times.
the untrained ear automaticly turns off when the melody is made using too many notes, the truth is not of us can hear a song like this innocently anymore since we know too much about it, only musiceans apreciate complicated melodies.
I remember when i started out, my ear could not pay attention to anything that was more complicated then Paco Pena, i would lose my attention span after about 1 minute, it required too much concentration on my behalf to find the melodie.
As we listen to more and more complicated stuff out brain and the way we listen trains itself to hear more things we hadent before noticed.
How many times havent you heard a really adavanced guitarist say man I love this melody !! then he plays it and you think to yourself its ok is not that greate,
I remember with David Conoduele he just lifted a falseta from Pacos , Cosita buena and he keeped saying "brilliant" brilliant " he played it for me , i didnt get most of it , alot of halv tones and subtle tones, but he loved it.
Playing guitar you exercise you abilitie to hear things just as much as you exercise your abilitie to play. Also if you dont exercise it then is the same effect you get when you dont exercise your technique. Listening is an art. I have so many albums, i dont yet understand but i keep making a point to go back to them after a few months or a year, and many times i have rediscovered many things i missed and loved solos i never tought i would. ! perfect example is Gerardo Nunes La nueva escuela de la guitarra flamenca
I totaly missed :Algáida (Fandangos), and now i discovered that i love it.
Unfortunately the general public will never hear Nino as you hear him not to mention that we all hear things differently not 2 pple ever hear things exactly the same way , its like looking at clouds, some pple see faces of angels and some see that is going to rain tomarow, or it reminds em that they forghot to tape The Simpsons.
RE: Nino de Pura and Flamenco Lite (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
Interesting points.
Im my opinion Otmar Libert is 100% comercial music. Flamenco? I dont know... Gypsy Kings are comercials, too. Jessie Cook?? Never heared about him.
But Nino de Pura is 100% flamenco. Hes a new generation, with new ideas and new arangements. Why isnt it flamenco adding new instruments including vocals and mixing it? Rumba, Guajira,Colombiana werent flamenco in past, too. Nino played many years for dance and until today for cante. And does it very very good and very flamenco puro. I´ll upload an audiosample tomorrow where he acomp. a singers bulerias very flamenco.
Flamenco is a living art, right? It doesnt stay as it is today. Its in a continous evolution. So..in 10-20 years flamenco will be very different than today. Than we will say... oooh Nino de Puras pozo y caudal was flamenco puro, but the compositions of guitarrist xy of today is only comercial. Flamenco changes, and with it the definition of flamenco, if there is a definition.
Its like my parents and grandparents. When my mother started to hear Elvis Presley.. My grandparents said.. Thats not music..its only noise! The music of my youth is only noise for my parents. And the music of the youth of today is only ugly noise for me. Do you understand what I try to explain?
[Could somebody host for me the nino de pura life bulerias acomp.? Its 7Mb I have no chance to host it somewhere. I will send it to you with email if somebody gives me his email who will host the file.]
RE: Nino de Pura and Flamenco Lite (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
Doitsujin, your point is wrong here, because it is or was a cultural problem in those days. The adolescent generation at that time wanted to use the (different) music to express their feelings about the world (political, social...)
If i understood Miguel right his point was focused on the music itself and the relation an artist should have to it ,i.e. on how serious a performer is and how much he can add and how much he can change the music, before it gets beeing "Flamenco Lite".
Did you ever heard a pice of Paganini? His compositions are more "modern" than todays. You know, there is no rule that says "every new generation creates new music and this music will always be refused by the old generation at that time"...
quote:
the untrained ear automaticly turns off when the melody is made using too many notes, the truth is not of us can hear a song like this innocently anymore since we know too much about it, only musiceans apreciate complicated melodies.
this is 100% correct. when i started to hear this huge album "Friday Night in San Francisco" my ear+brain retired after short time. Dude ive heard the album every single night before going to bed (a habit of me), for 4 months, really! That is an enjoyable album i can tell you!
My personal view about Flamenco Lite is that i dont see it to much complicated. I like the first track on Borreasca by Ottmar Liebert very much! It goes directly into your brain; THAT fascinates me. To find a melody or something that catches you just in the moment you here it! Im glad that Liebert was able to create such a thing. Then the Gipsy Kings: I hate "Volare" coz they play it in every single soccer game about ten times! But besides the Gipsy Kings have also really nice music AND they can really play flamencoguitar (hear luna de fuego)! I always love their picado, its very thin. It was ever my goal to reach such a picado. Jesse Cook, i only know 5 songs of him but its also nice music. You have to hear Worlds away!
I think its really neccessary to upload some files that show what i mean. I really like both Flamenco AND some flamenco-pop.
So here is the download link and really everybody who likes guitar music should download it (its only 2,7MB either!) 3 songs or rather their beginnings...
RE: Nino de Pura and Flamenco Lite (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
Ok maybe 10% used Elvis for expressing their feelings of the world. The others were only crazy on the new music (and many on Elvis, too). I think. Its just an example its not 1:1 assimiable. Maybe there were some society-researchers who said that. But in my opinion its a constructed interpretation of something where almost nothing is.
The flamenco lite music you uploaded is ok. The G.Kings track is very nice. Yes I agree with you calling it flamenco lite.
Posts: 1945
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: Nino de Pura and Flamenco Lite (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
I read in an industry mag that after ottmar recorded his first record, they played the first single in a room full of radio guys-they all applauded. He created something that was radio friendly and, more important, fit into their format. Listen to those smooth jazz stations, then VA or Nino. Their music doesn't quite fit in-it's a little too intense, a little too developed, and most importantly, it lacks the common elements that the music those stations who play ottmar and the GK's have, such as funk drums and funk/dance bass. The GK's is already stretching it for those stations. The other huge reason that Ottmar outsells VA is simply the record business machine, which ottmar really had working several years ago, and which VA may have going a bit now, but which Nino has yet to get. Press, gigs, publicity, are all record business promo, and you have to be with those guys to break through in a big way. An artist has to be committed to recording music for THAT audience, and as commercial as VA is, he has a long long way to go to stoop to that level. I don't see him doing it. He may one day have a single, but will he be able to make more than one? PdL couldn't. We as guitarists love displays of mastery, but the average housewife just wants to feel good while she's making out her shopping list. If those smooth jazz stations don't play the record, where else is there to go?
Posts: 1945
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: Nino de Pura and Flamenco Lite (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
Ha! Just had a thought. If I was a record business guy and wanted to make a really good flamenco guitarist a pop instrumental star, I'd simply drug the the guy until he was mostly passed out, at that point he might be able to create the sleeply crap they play on smooth jazz stations.
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
RE: Nino de Pura and Flamenco Lite (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
quote:
Mark, a better way would be to tell him "let's make a joke and see how well you can imitate Ottmar Liebert." Roll the tape without telling him and once you have spliced together each joke into a pop song, then comes teh hard work of convincing him to play it thus...
RE: Nino de Pura and Flamenco Lite (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
Hi Phrygus! It was in spanish tv. With satelite TV you can see spanish, turkey, and many other programms. In spanish Tv are often tablao reports. (I dont know to call it..) There I saw Nino de Pura.^^ I recorded it on tape.. at the end the tape wasnt long enough.. you hear where it ends and roll back to start. (><)
RE: Nino de Pura and Flamenco Lite (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
Well, call me simplistic, but I like my Flamenco to be catchy. One of my favorite PDL songs is "Rio Ancho" (yes, a rumba! ), which has a simple yet catchy chorus that gets repeated. The difference between Rio Ancho and many pop songs with choruses is that paco fills the verses with quality playing and technique, whereas some pop artists do not. Even non-rumba flamenco... I like Guajiras and Zapateados by Sanlucar- its still flamenco, but he is skilled enough at composition to make even the complex rhythm patterns sound ephonious to the average listener, and that takes special talent. Being complex is fine if you're looking to impress guitarists in the audience, but what about the rest of the world? Or is the music intended just for guitarists? As for singles, its hard to bring out an instrumental single and make it successful. If there is a singer involved, then that is slightly different. I could imagine Paco and Camaron's "Solo Quiero Caminar" doing well in somewhere like Spain when it was first made. But you can make complex singles that do well- for example Queen's "Bohemian Rhapsody" was a quite complex song (by pop standards) and still managed to hold the audience's attention and do well in the charts. I suppose the key is to make songs that are impressively technical, yet not too complex that they cease to have strong melodies within them. That way you can appeal to guitarists AND other people at once, thereby maximising your chances of success. Plus, it helps if you've got an attractive young female singer in the band!
RE: Nino de Pura and Flamenco Lite (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
The tape ended and the normasl TV programm started. It was 2-3 years ago when I recorded it. I grabed it on cd than. Yes its me, laughing at the end. (^_-)
Posts: 1945
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: Nino de Pura and Flamenco Lite (in reply to JBASHORUN)
James, You might consider that you might prefer other music to flamenco. The elements you write about in Rio Ancho are opposite to most flamenco guitar music, which until recently had little repeated theme material. "Rio" was supposed to be Paco's follow up to "Entre" but it didn't pan out. If a guitarist really wants to sell, he has to forget about playing for musicans entirely, IMO, and concentrate on what's being played and what's selling. Not many players want to do that. Instrumental singles do happen regularly, probably at the rate of one or two a year. Really big ones less than that.
RE: Nino de Pura and Flamenco Lite (in reply to Mark2)
Mark2, You are right that my musical tastes are varied... I like classical music and neo-classical shred guitar music right through to pop and Flamenco. For me it is about quality music regardless of genre. Fair enough that many traditional Flamenco guitar songs do not have choruses, but what about songs like "Solo Quiero Caminar"? And thats not even a Rumba, but a Tangos. Also Vicente Amigo's "De Mi Corazon Al Aire" song, track 1 and 8 from Gerardo Nunez' "Andando El Tiempo" album, "Andares Gaditanos" by Manolo Sanlucar and several Paco Pena and Juan Serrano songs come to mind. All have some phrases that are used more than once, and could be considered as a sort of chorus. But I'm not implying songs must have be simple or have choruses to be entertaining, as I like many songs by Paco and other guitarists that DON'T have choruses and are fairly complex. I think it takes more skill to produce a song without a chorus that is still enjoyable to the average listener. However, one example of my arguement is that quite a few of the 1980's shred electric guitarists focused too much on technique, and so their songs were only listened to by a small minority- mainly guitarists. That is why very few people even remember them. In my humble opinion, Flamenco guitar music is much the same... a fine balance between over-complication and over-simplicity. Too complex and the songs become exclusive, too simple and the songs are mocked by the Flamenco afficionados. For me, at least, the best Flamenco songs lie somewhere in between.
Posts: 1945
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: Nino de Pura and Flamenco Lite (in reply to JBASHORUN)
Totaly agree about 80's electric guitar. Just a bunch of chops. Give me a solo you can sing-60's guys anyday, the blues guys like Freddy King,and the rockers Clapton, Page, Hendrix,Carlos, etc. Satriani is as far as I go, even Vai seems to have failed to create anything memorable. Flamenco is different-you don't have to have a repeated theme-no one did before PdL, I think. And I still dig older flamenco guitar like Melchor, Ricardo, Ramon, Marote, etc. No theme, just kick butt flamenco. Real flamenco will never be popular. Entre may have been it. The zenith of flamenco popularity. But who knows. I do like the moderns with their themes too. When VA comes in with the theme the second time, I know the piece is almost over
RE: Nino de Pura and Flamenco Lite (in reply to Mark2)
I agree about many of the 80s electric guitar shredders. But as with Flamenco, there are successful ones and failures. The failures made songs to show off their chops, whilst the successful ones wrote intelligent music. Satriani has a handful of well written songs. I think Vai is an extremely talented guitarist, but needs to work on his songwriting. Good examples of well composed shred are Vinnie Moore's "The Maze" album and Neil Zaza's "Staring at the Sun" album. Both of these albums were released after 2000, and have melodies that you can hum along to. Yeah, "Real Flamenco" probably never will go mainstream. But occasionally Rumba bands and other Flamenco derivatives do... Like the Gypsy Kings (everyone has heard of them!). And I do think its possible for some of the more modern, themed Flamenco to appeal to a wider audience. Which, IMO, is a good thing for Flamenco as a whole, as it attracts new listeners.
RE: Nino de Pura and Flamenco Lite (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
quote:
When you hear the pale imitations of flamenco around here, and then compare it to Nino de Pura, the level of quality is not even close... It would be cool if he or someone like him became popular over here and supplanted or at least threatened the rule of the "Flamenco Like" guitarists.
By the way, I have ordered Nino De Pura's "Pozo Y Caudal" album from Flamenco world, just to see if it is as good as Miguel claims. According to the Flamenco World profile, Nino studied with Manolo Sanlucar for a while, so I have high expectations.
RE: Nino de Pura and Flamenco Lite (in reply to JBASHORUN)
James I dont think you will be dissapointed, remember like everything else you should listen to the album atlist about 9 times before youl know if you like it or not.
I never like anyones album from the first go.
First time i ever heard Ciudad de las ideas album i didnt think it was a big deal, now i think is one of the greatest albums ever released.
RE: Nino de Pura and Flamenco Lite (in reply to Florian)
quote:
James I dont think you will be dissapointed, remember like everything else you should listen to the album atlist about 9 times before youl know if you like it or not.
Florian, when the album arrives, I will listen to it several times... it does take me a few listens to tell whether I like it or not. I will then tell you all what I think of the album as both a fan of "Flamenco Lite" AND "Flamenco Puro". If what Miguel says is true, then the album seems to mix the best parts of the each- and that does sound interesting.
RE: Nino de Pura and Flamenco Lite (in reply to Florian)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Florian I never like anyones album from the first go. First time i ever heard Ciudad de las ideas album i didnt think it was a big deal, now i think is one of the greatest albums ever released.
Oh really?!
I heard the album couple times and after hearing it 10 times, which is not very much for me, i found siroco, live in ameria and fabulosa gitarra a lot more enjoyable and more consistent. except "tre notas.." i thought "Ciudad de las ideas " had not much to "give", which was pretty a disappointment for me.
RE: Nino de Pura and Flamenco Lite (in reply to XXX)
Phrygus
Again perfect example how we all have different taste and look for different things and theres no way on earth that i could know what would possibliby make you tick or not or even tell you what should make you tick or not.
You might listen to it 300 times and still not like it and thats cool, i know that it grew so much on me that i see it as one of the best ever made.
With me i have to go back to an album many many times before i know if i like it or not.
Ciudad de las ideas was revolutionary in so many different ways for Vicente and flamenco guitar, i think it was the first album hes ever used drums in, and the first album he had perfected that silk smooth reverb that has now become his own, i have tried so hard to find out how he got that reverb, it is an art in itself.
not to mention that each track is filled with substance, except Tata, and mibe Bolero de vicente but even that has grown on me.
RE: Nino de Pura and Flamenco Lite (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
quote: when the album arrives, I will listen to it several times... it does take me a few listens to tell whether I like it or not. I will then tell you all what I think of the album as both a fan of "Flamenco Lite" AND "Flamenco Puro".
I like the Nino De Pura album. Not just the rumbas, the other songs are pretty good too. Its technical enough to be impressive, yet quite easy to listen to aswell. I especially liked "Fartlek" (which definitely reminds me of "Gitana Latina" on juan Martin's Camino Latino album) and the Alegrias. I think this album makes a good "in between" album for listeners wanting a step up from most Flamenco Lite, but not wanting to be overwhelmed. However, the cante on a few songs (modern though it is) might deter a few casual listeners. Generally, though, I would recommend the album. I also bought the Vicente Amigo "Ciudad De Las Ideas" DVD and quite enjoyed that too. Finally, I forgot that I even had a copy of Sanlucar's "Tauromagia", but recently dug it out and stuck it on repeat. It is slowly growing on me.
RE: Nino de Pura and Flamenco Lite (in reply to Florian)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Florian i think it was the first album hes ever used drums in,
hm... i dont know if you would accept it, but the gipys kings used alot drums (in the 80s). there is a track "mosaique" in the equally named album. its an awesome combo of guitars and drums!
RE: Nino de Pura and Flamenco Lite (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria I like the Gipsy Kings, but in terms of instrumental music, there is a huge lack of quality.
Oh noo...
Only because they dont do it so much it doesnt mean that they cannot do also instrumental flamenco. There are for example 2 Bulerias they play very very well. One is Mosaique and one is named Bolerias.
Besides, their picado is my ultimate favorite. They sound different from normal flamencos. Its very "spicy", even PAco, who might have a better technique, does not play this sound, although he maybe could, no doubt on that!
I mean, come on, they are as good as professional musicians! Everybody thinks because they are gipsies they must be amatuerish or so. The opposite is true! They grow up with it, they are even born in *compas*. I know they do almost exclusively rumbas, but they surely can also play the real hard stuff...
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
RE: Nino de Pura and Flamenco Lite (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
You misinterpreted, or perhaps I was unclear. I love the Gipsy Kings and I think their instrumental pieces are very good. But looking past them, what else is there? Ottmar Liebert and Jesse Cook and Strunz and Farah just don't do it for me.
I think Tonino is a great musician. Not good, great...
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), which has a simple yet catchy chorus that gets repeated. The difference between Rio Ancho and many pop songs with choruses is that paco fills the verses with quality playing and technique, whereas some pop artists do not. Even non-rumba flamenco... I like Guajiras and Zapateados by Sanlucar- its still flamenco, but he is skilled enough at composition to make even the complex rhythm patterns sound ephonious to the average listener, and that takes special talent. Being complex is fine if you're looking to impress guitarists in the audience, but what about the rest of the world? Or is the music intended just for guitarists? 
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