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This discussion feels like an argument I had with my ex-girlfriend about La Llorona. Because I was unable to physically prove somehow that she doesn't exist my girlfriend insisted she won the argument, even laughed at me for being naive, hilarious.........
I remind of percilval lowel that litterally connected lines to dots he saw in a telescope image of mars...CANALS of martians ferrying water to drought inflicted cities. So exciting except, not true...and even today people STILL looking for those pesky hiding martians.
There's this David Icke guru who seems to have managed to connect Alien reptilian humanoid with Illuminati. They're responsibile for 9/11. Also he's not surprized that 911 days after the attacks, happened the Atocha bombing in Madrid...All become suddenly crystal clear. Reptilian humanoid illuminati, the loop is closed.
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That cartoon accurately depicts a fringe group of idiots who join "militias"
But if these fanatics are anti gov and basically anti NWO, why the cartoonist would have portrayed them as Dubya blind followers? It did not make sense for me. I'm not sure this cartoon refers to militias guys...
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"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)
But if these fanatics are anti gov and basically anti NWO, why the cartoonist would have portrayed them as Dubya blind followers? It did not make sense for me. I'm not sure this cartoon refers to militias guys...
No, it's a democrat cartoon about their favorite people on earth...republicans.
Both sides pick extremes and non sensical situations to make a point how THEY are right and the others are wrong. In this case dems are saying republicans right to militia and self defense is silly, if they ALSO support war.
My friend was in traffic on GW parkway on 9/11 and watched in horror
I experienced several times how urban myths are being passed along. With acquintainces telling me some version of stories I had read about already. And each time the urban myth story would had allegedly happened to someone closely related to them. You know like to their brother in law or sister´s best friend or so.
Not saying that your friend was counting to typical passers, just pointing out a possible option.
Could you eventually ask your friend whether he has seen those photographies of a much too small break through in the building and what he thinks they are showing. A preceding accident in the same building? Photoshop?
And from what I think to remember a straight approach of the plane was impossible, because of hindrances in the environmental situation.
As your friend has seen it with his own eyes: How did the plane manage to hit the building pretty square, in the way the debris indicates?
And please won´t you evade with that it wasn´t worth bothering attitude. After all you have posted to present a strong opinion, hence did bother already.
And you know, after all, such an occurance that ought to have happened should be a pretty clear event, that mustn´t be jam-full of paradoxical details in the way 9/11 all to obviously has been.
But maybe those rather simple brains who flew the attacks spent some years in advance to prepare and implement all those sharply refined little and gross inconsistencies only for to entertain the nut community of conspiracy theorists. Who knows. A worlds largest and keenest tracking appartus that cared to cover monitoring of all kinds of electronic communication world wide already in the early eighties analog times, yet despite all pointers missed out on a group of fanatic rubes loud as can be, might as well then have eventually failed to realize these guys trafficing years before already for taking on false identities and preparing for heaps of questionable circumstances. Who knows.
I'm sure this could be done...and finally silence those who doubt the official story.
No, Jim, nothing will finally silence those who doubt the official (and, I might add, accurate) story, because, as I noted in an earlier posting above, the AE911Truth "Truthers," like all conspiracy theorists, will not allow a simple thing like facts and reasoned argument to disturb their preconceived Narrative. The Narrative is everything. To the "Truthers," the Narrative cannot be denied.
To repeat a portion of my previous posting:
"So the AE911Truth "Truther" conspiracy theorists are nothing new. They and their followers are just another in a long line of groups and individuals who reject rational thought and evidenced-based reasoning, and instead opt for what they consider more "sexy" explanations for events and phenomena. One could pile on as much evidence as possible and it still would not deter them from pursuing their dreams of conspiratorial activity. In fact, and here is the final irony, the more you provide reasoned argument and evidence-based conclusions that undermine their precious conspiracy theories, the more convinced they become that you yourself are part of the conspiracy. For if you were not part of the conspiracy, why would you argue against it if not to conceal and protect it from exposure?"
Sad indeed, but true, as we have seen in some of the comments posted in this thread.
Bill
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And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
Funny how you must refer to "rational", who you won´t even allow the truth about crude rational of capitalist economics.
You want a lullaby of industrial lobbies´s fraudulent labeling as democratc institutions´ integrity over a profiteering reality to be presenting a "rational thought". And consider such to be rational still.
Could you eventually ask your friend whether he has seen those photographies of a much too small break through in the building and what he thinks they are showing. A preceding accident in the same building? Photoshop?
And from what I think to remember a straight approach of the plane was impossible, because of hindrances in the environmental situation.
As your friend has seen it with his own eyes: How did the plane manage to hit the building pretty square, in the way the debris indicates?
And please won´t you evade with that it wasn´t worth bothering attitude. After all you have posted to present a strong opinion, hence did bother already.
And you know, after all, such an occurance that ought to have happened should be a pretty clear event, that mustn´t be jam-full of paradoxical details in the way 9/11 all to obviously has been.
Brother I live here where it happened. I pass by Pentagon every freakin day then and now. With low flying planes every day there, it's scary. One did crash into the 14th st bridge right there in bad weather. It was a clear morning. My friend was a very trust worthy intelligent female who would have no damn reason or purpose to perpetuate anything her eyes had not seen. Nor would it be worth a time to after all these years force her to view some BS conspiracy video to debunk the thing. I only need her word. She lives in Spain now anyway. When this thing happened she was on her way to work in the morning.
Nor can I doubt my own eyes afterwards. My close turkish friend and his weed smoking buddies were convinced a missile had hit the side and other stuff discussed here, and I had her describe to him directly and he just had to shut up since he knew her and trusted her as myself. Also my descriptions inside convinced him. But he still believed that G Bush wanted oil, but gave up on that self inflicted demolition crap. I am not going to further this by bringing up the ugly past to my numerous NYC living friends either. NOt a one of em go for this conspiracy crappolla.
The best thing I can offer you Ruphus is to take a step back a minute and remind yourself that your adversion to superstition having no validity is akin to this conspiracy non sense. That being, the compilation of coincidental happenings don't need to mean ANYTHING so special. The truth is the truth.
AE911Truth simply asserts that NIST's report was not scientific and erroneous, and that we need a real, independent, scientific investigation. They've proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that NIST is in error on many accounts. But first consider if its important? Of my taxes, over $5,000 a year go to defense, justified by the events of 9/11.
We're about to cure cancer, a real cure that doesn't involve chemo, meds, and will work 100% of the time. Seattle Children's Cancer Institute The funding from the Government? Zero. yet, we pay a tremendous amount because of 9/11. Aren't we allowed a real investigation?
On 9/11 Hundreds of eye witnesses heard explosions. NIST never tested for explosions. Building 7 came down in freefall for over 2.5 seconds, and NIST denied this because it didn't fit their model, but then admitted it in their final report but never updated the model. You can't have free fall collapse without removing the support columns simultaneous. NIST denied that there was molten iron found in Building 7 rubble even a week after 9/11, yet many eyewitness concur, and we have satellite imagery that verify that the temperature was over 1,500 degrees. There's a huge amount of evidence for explosives but NONE were tested for.
That's NOT science. The scientific method would rule out controlled demolition by analyzing the facts. NIST analized none of the evidence, yet tried to prove an alternative hypothesis which they never proved. Their models have never been shared despite Freedom of Information requests, because it would 'jeopardize public safety', yet this information is critical for building design every where if their hypothesis is correct.
We could cure Cancer with a tiny fraction of the money that we're spending on Defense. We owe it to the future generations and ourselves to have a real indepedant scientific investigation.
Please watch the documentary 9/11 Experts Speak Out before refuting any of this. Please explain why we SHOULDN'T have a real investigation.
That being, the compilation of coincidental happenings don't need to mean ANYTHING so special.
Basically agreed. However from a certain amount of unlikeliness on sceptisism is only consequential. Without irony: Are you saying there was no practical issue for an airliner to hit rectangular?
Has it been all hysterical conspiracy spinners who claimed that a plane of that size, speed etc. could not ever hit that spot straight?
And how do you imagine a state security apparatus, not to mention the hyper sensitive one of the USA to dismiss not only one pointer from European colleagues about those assassins, but even all pointers from several European services?
First time maybe someone on the receiving end suffered from sleeping thickness and Alzheimer simultaneously. Thinkable, isn´t it. ... Though not really that the incoming of such messages to be left to single hands. ... Anyway now. And the other times? What could had happened with the other messages?
... And liquid steel, powdered concrete giving way to free fall ...
Again without tongue in cheek: How can yoiu file up all such. Fur truth being truth, finito ...?
I can´t help it, without intending to be stubborn in any way. It just feels so much more earthed and coherent on the questioning site of this case than on the accepting one.
Hey, I remember when I started with meditation and yoga ... People insisted so much on those pictures of cross-legged "floating" yogis as for real, that I was almost buying into that simple trick of flipping oneself from a mattress.
Up from a point one seems tempted to give into stressing majority and into what ought to be "sane".
And in the case of 9/11 a threat of shocking policies seems to overcome all rational matters from administrative improbabilities to physical ones.
t is said the Pentagon is the most heavily protected and secure building in the world and perhaps you will be able to confirm if this is wrong? I understand there's a flight exclusion zone, a missile defence system and full high security camera system. I mean that stands to reason doesn't it?
I can't therefore, understand why video evidence has not been released showing the plane. I'm sure this could be done in a sensitive manor to respect crew and passengers and finally silence those who doubt the official story.
Because the US does not have to justify events to foreign nationals who are conspiracy theorists.
In addition, at the point at which the aircraft deviated from normal fight patters in a restricted zone it was noted. At some point is was clear to radar monitors that that the aircraft was on a trajectory that would impact the Pentagon. What were the choices? Shoot a civilian aircraft over the capital of the US in a heavily populated area where it could have killed many more people that it did and create more security risks? The protocol to shoot down a civilian aircraft means that chain of command has to reach the executive level for authorization. In general with the exception of a few psychotic people members of the US military take it as their ultimate duty to protect US civilians. They took the hit because it was their job to absorb it.
It would be ludicrous to release national security information about alert systems around the nations capital. The positions of video cameras, emergency reaction times, fighter aircraft scrambling information etc. and myriad of other security issues could be gleaned from releasing information about the area around Washington D.C.
The fact that you would even pose such a question shows how naive, uninformed and irrational these revisionist, so called truth, movements are. In fact, as you keep calling for, open more investigations, and look deeper and find that new investigations will substantiate the chain of events and that in truth the Pentagon was hit by an aircraft traveling 300 plus miles per hour.
This should make rabid Anti Americanists happy I would think, because it shows the Pentagon is not an unattackable building. But the folly of anti American thinking in this vein is that it follows this irrational track that it was a self inflicted job to create a reason to go to war. First off I'll tell you we are a lot more creative and nasty than that. If factions the in the US government like the Neo-Con movement ( 'Chicken Hawks' as we like to call them) wanted to go to war they will war game it for years, read up on the late Norman Schwartzkopf and his childhood in the Middle east and years of planning for situations like Operation Desert Storm and you will understand the complexity of the planning and why it is in place. The errors in intelligence that allowed Colin Powell to stand up before the United Nations and claim there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq is enough of a reason to formulate a declaration of war in the minds of the NeoCons. US never had to self inflict a wound to have any reason to start any conflicts. It's non logical anti Americanist argument.
* It was stated up thread that Donald Rumsfeld commented on the situation at the Pentagon on the day before the 911 attacks as being departmentally in flux and the relationships between the various armed service branches were adversarial with one another. The implication being that the Pentagon has infighting between the services and it bombed itself so it could start war elsewhere. Ludicrous.
The reason the Vietnam war was protracted was in part because of bureaucratic infighting within the Pentagon. There have been papers written about it, some real famous ones which were published in major US newspapers in the 1970s. This is not new information, it's all public. More homework needs to be done by those who naively posit such theories. I highly recommend Michael Herr's seminal book 'Dispatches' on the problems of the Vietnam War; he goes into very clear detail on the practical effects of US military infighting on how the war unfolded. A close reading of this book might provide some historical background to Rumsfelt's concerns.
And for the record I voted against G.W. Bush, I loathe Donald Rumsfelt and all he represents vis a vis his world view and politic. The same goes for the rest of NeoCon lot and the Bush Doctrine. It's not the US I represent or want to project into the world. However I won't stand for unsubstantiated, self indulgent, and ridiculous theories about my country.
How on Earth does the Plane hitting the Pentagon have ANYTHING to do with Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth? They've never made any statements about this, as they're one and only focus is the NIST reports.
NIST has not disproven controlled demolition, despite the mountain of evidence of this: molten iron, freefall and near free fall collapse in all 3 skyscrapers, iron spheres in the dust, unexploded nanothermite in every dust sample, temperatues of over 1500 degrees in the rubble of building 7 a full week after 9/11, hundreds of eyewitness testimony. and over 1,700 architects and engineers demand a real scientific investigation.
NIST hasn't even proven their OWN theory of Thermal expansion, as it is not possible to have Free fall for 2.5 seconds, which NIST even Admits, yet in their final report they admit the 2.5 seconds of free fall which was pointed out by a high school physics teacher. NIST has never released their models. They can't because they don't explain the hypothesis of thermal expansion and also explain free fall.
NIST has a ridiculous theory that isn't proven and can't be.
What does ANY of this have to do with the Pentagon? AE911Truth has no opinion on this, ONLY the NIST report.
and we have satellite imagery that verify that the temperature was over 1,500 degrees. There's a huge amount of evidence for explosives but NONE were tested for.
If you ever fired a ceramics kiln you would know that is not that difficult to achieve Cone 10 heat values with natural gas, kerosine and wood fires.
A ceramics kiln is an enclosed box with a draft of air feeing a fire with a high concentration of fuel in a compact area. This allows a small chamber to reach temperatures unattainable in open flame situations. Many times when houses burn the constituent parts of the house burn much hotter, many times hotter, than they would burn in an open air situation.
Think of the inside of a building with thousands of square feet of carpet, drapes, furniture wood, soaked with jet fuel and a few holes punched the side of the building high up in the air with no obstructions to the air flow. It really begins to resemble a giant ceramic kiln with the capability of super heating the fuel soaked interior. Not to mention the volatile flammable material in the carpets and furniture in the form of adhesives and synthetic textiles. And paper, lots of paper.
So once a super heated floor of a building gets hot enough to distort metal framing through heat the framing can fail before it actually melts because it expands past the point its fastening systems can withstand. At that point is breaks. When the internal structure breaks the concrete around it breaks, even cured concrete will expand and contract. The combination of materials expanding contracting at different rates will cause further structural failure and the floor will drop onto the floor under it bringing more fuel soaked items and more weight to bear on it. After this happens to a couple of floors the load beaing capabilities of the structure are compromised and the building free falls.
If you know about the Kobe earthquakes of 1995 you may know that engineers began to talk about the "Soft Story Effect", this means that under certain circumstances a floor in a building can internally collapse and pancake onto the story under it causing the stories to successively pancake until the building fails totally. The soft story dropping phenomenon is well known. A soft story can be created though structural failure of a story as a prime shear point on a building, the structure that holds up that story shears because it is the point at which the building cannot bend with the movement so it snaps at that point. Or a soft story can be created by the floor dropping on the floor under it which increases the loading past the breaking point.
Cone 10 means the heat in a ceramic kiln is around 2300 F Cone 14 is used to gauge the heat for Porcelin firing at 2550 F range. Cone 4 is low fire earthenware at about 1400 to 1650 F
I'm not an authority on thermal expansion of metals, but an engineer here could tell you the calculations. I do know that in a chamber with a narrow forced air supply that fuels will heat a thermally refractive environment three to four times (plus) hotter than in the open air. Iron will expand under high heat and the longer the beam the more it expands exponentially.
A concrete building with an air hole punched into it full of jet fuel is as thermally reactive of a chamber as you can hope to make.
Too bad Al Queda did not bring some raku pottery to fire. The smoke imparts such a beautiful irridescent patina on the glazes.
Building 7 was never hit by a plane, and the office fires were largely extinguished by time the building collapsed at 5:21 PM.
Molten Iron flowed from the debris a week after 9/11.
Even NIST doesn't claim the pancake effect is valid. When floors pancake, you loose momentum. Building 7 accelerated. What NIST says is that thermal expansion caused the failure of all the columns simultaneously. and the little clip of their computer model shows massive deformation, whereas the video evidence doesn't show any deformation.
There hasn't been a solid argument yet why there shouldn't be a real scientific investigation, and why explosives should not be tested for.
There's quite a bit of material that can be exhumed and the evidence is in the dust. Nanothermite has now been proven and the research published in a peer reviewed scientific journal.
why SHOULDN'T there be a real investigation that looks at the evidence?
Even NIST doesn't claim the pancake effect is valid. When floors pancake, you loose momentum. Building 7 accelerated. What NIST says is that thermal expansion caused the failure of all the columns simultaneously. and the little clip of their computer model shows massive deformation, whereas the video evidence doesn't show any deformation.
You just got through saying the methodology of inquiry was opaque an faulty. Which is it? Seem syou use it seve your point either way. Typical conspiracy inconsistency.
And who are you really with three posts? You probably just made this profile because you are too chicken to be out in the open.
well that's not nice. And AE911Truth supports no conspiracy theory, there's never been a statement about who's responsible. Only that the NIST report isn't scientific.
No, it's a democrat cartoon about their favorite people on earth...republicans.
Both sides pick extremes and non sensical situations to make a point how THEY are right and the others are wrong. In this case dems are saying republicans right to militia and self defense is silly, if they ALSO support war.
Sounds more accurate than Bill's decryption. But this militia mindset also contaminates Republicans voters?
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"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)
No, it's a democrat cartoon about their favorite people on earth...republicans.
Both sides pick extremes and non sensical situations to make a point how THEY are right and the others are wrong. In this case dems are saying republicans right to militia and self defense is silly, if they ALSO support war.
Sounds more accurate than Bill's decryption. But this militia mindset also contaminates Republicans voters?
Of course. their cartoons are even funnier-less. A bad thing happens and everyone looks around for someone one or something to blame. But the sad truth is, sometimes there is no reason for bad things to happen, they just do. No matter how hard you try, they WILL happen again.
but whats the point of having wrong theories only for the sake of diversity...
I wouldn't say "wrong" theories are out there for the sake of diversity , although it is a by product. It's up to the individual to inform themselves regarding subjects of interest to them.
I'm referring to correct info mixed in amongst the conspiracy theories, such as info regarding fluoride being a poison, or the powers held by the reserve bank.
I notice the way mainstream media now acknowledges and discusses many subjects that I once only saw being discussed prior on you tube. The fact that these conspiracy videos were receiving so many views changed many things. Sure, there are plenty of theories that don't make sense to me, but i have learnt a great deal of beneficial information from truthers and conspiracy theorists as well. That was my original point.
A bad thing happens and everyone looks around for someone one or something to blame.
Scapegoating is a very common behavior, History is full of such attitude. I'm not sure if a society could survive without this mechanism.
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But the sad truth is, sometimes there is no reason for bad things to happen, they just do. No matter how hard you try, they WILL happen again.
Fatalism. What about human responsability. If all is fated then how one could be blamed or acclamed for his own choices? A murderer could claim that his actions are guided by the Fate or God, so he's not responsible in the end.
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Of course.
I still don't get how people who join such militia organisations could at the same time vote (and adhere) for a governmental party. That's a litlle schizo.
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I'm referring to correct info mixed in amongst the conspiracy theories, such as info regarding fluoride being a poison, or the powers held by the reserve bank.
What disturbs me with conspirationists is when they use valid arguments taken from authors whom studied seriously this or that phenomenom. Conspirasionist twisted original ideas they borrowed in order to fit them in their mold. All their energy is wasted and deflected in demonstrate secretive activities when most of what they denounce is available publicly. Sure most of the time the activities conspirationist pointed out are not mediatized coz their authors are acting discreetly, out of the mainstream media's lights. But they're not acting in total secret. Conspirationist distract / steal attention from the real problematic to another one where they hunt secret organizations blabla BS. When they pointed out at Economical issues, they prefer to focus on fantaisist actors meeting in gloomy rooms (and sealing pacts with their blood) and never point out to Milton Friedman's theories and his concrete applications, Davos forum...
And also, when I dig it and search who are the people behind these conspiracy theories, and found out their political/religious views, then I realized that I have nothing in common with them. Even if they use arguments (borrowed from respectable authors) that I agree with, their final goals are totally unappealing to me.
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"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)
ORIGINAL: Ricardo But the sad truth is, sometimes there is no reason for bad things to happen, they just do. No matter how hard you try, they WILL happen again.
Things never happen without a reason. There might be no reason why something happened specifically TO YOU, ie randomly walking over the street and get hit by a car, without the intention of hitting you. But there is a reason why that accident happened. A prof once said radioactive decay would be the only random process that he can think of. Oh and if you remove the reason why things happen they of course wont happen again.
Is it really relevant whether it be such actors and environment, or same things arranged in light flooded sophisticated / easy-going appearing ambience?
Cartells and arrangements do actually exist and occasionally even get revealed by participants themselves, though exclusively when they have decided to sort out / deliver one of their kind. Whether their meetings take place in hotel conference rooms, in splendid villas, video conferences or those gloomy rooms: Is that of actual relevance?
What counts is that the same institution meant to represent you and me as government, actually works for the aforementioned participants. Pathing all ways and servicing pecuniary afluence that is being squeezed out from pedestrian folks and the only ones who actually generate the equivalent for any money with their lifetime, sweat and health.
What counts is that there is none of the democracy in existences that you are made to believe in, and that you are not even enabled the information to size up the degree of actual equal rights, freedom and disposability on your own life.
You are held from realizing that any superfluous price gauging equals a clipping of your lifes disposability. In the opposite are the so called institutions there to enable value drain offs like through banks that will be supplied with your tax money which again you ought to lend back for many a times higher interetsts than given to the banks. They are there to enable insurances that will inquire similar overdone fees and the levers to make you due to drafting. They are there to privatize what has been accumulated through generations of tax payers for actually nada and throw after subsidies to boot. They are there to prevent questionings about pharmaceutical usury, or on whereabout of weapon industries.
And they are there to prevent people to wake up and require the fulfillment of authentic democracy.
What counts is that we live in an inhumane and pathological situation where excessively creaming off personalities will see dog poo eating fellow men just like extincting fellow creatures in deserting landscapes and tilting waters without reconsidering. And in their suite brain washed hosts of followers who won´t realize the most basic of humane and reasonable standards nor shapes of the antagone anymore.
Whether pictured in gloomy or conference rooms, fact is that the unbearable ways we have driven in are NOT coming about coincidentally or "naturally" by any means. That´s what is relevant.
We need a world that shall be directed by its people and allow the education and information for a direction of sense and mutual benefit. A world that reflects on the mathematically and evolutionary fact that cooperation pays. A world that has us realize that we need each other and fellow creature for an adequate and fulfilling living. ... that complement is sane, not usurp.
We need a world that shall be directed by its people and allow the education and information for a direction of sense and mutual benefit. A world that reflects on the mathematically and evolutionary fact that cooperation pays. A world that has us realize that we need each other and fellow creature for an adequate and fulfilling living.
Been trying to get that statement out of you forever. NOW....how about achieving this ideal situation? After you make that thought ask which nation on earth is closest to exactly that.
We need a world that shall be directed by its people and allow the education and information for a direction of sense and mutual benefit. A world that reflects on the mathematically and evolutionary fact that cooperation pays. A world that has us realize that we need each other and fellow creature for an adequate and fulfilling living.
Been trying to get that statement out of you forever. NOW....how about achieving this ideal situation? After you make that thought ask which nation on earth is closest to exactly that.
ORIGINAL: Ricardo But the sad truth is, sometimes there is no reason for bad things to happen, they just do. No matter how hard you try, they WILL happen again.
Things never happen without a reason. There might be no reason why something happened specifically TO YOU, ie randomly walking over the street and get hit by a car, without the intention of hitting you. But there is a reason why that accident happened. A prof once said radioactive decay would be the only random process that he can think of. Oh and if you remove the reason why things happen they of course wont happen again.
I guess my point is... which you are missing...is sometimes there is not this big secret monster to blame for a bad happening...sometimes it's just a sad pointless event. People are always pointing fingers. Disturbed people do disturbing things, no amount of nurture and education can change that. Think of this Deniz, I promise you, you WILL die. Now pretend you have the power to prevent every possible cause you can think of that might bring about your demise...will you then live forever?
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None.
You didn't give the break down of HOW to achieve it. AND you are NOT ruphus. After which SOME nation will be "closest" to trying to achieve that, so "none" makes no sense as an answer anyway. IN the end you all know it's USA anyway.
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I still don't get how people who join such militia organisations could at the same time vote (and adhere) for a governmental party. That's a litlle schizo.
Of course that type of group is extremely small and fringe as Bill said (and yes "shizo").. THe cartoon again is refering NOT to actual existing militia but rather that the republicans would use the RIGHT to form one as an excuse to hold on to their hi performance personal weapons.
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