RE: Segovia and flamenco

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estebanana

Posts: 9354
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 20 2013 17:49:10

Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

many guitar fans, especially classical or flamenco, view the guitar trio project as muscally dead cheap speed theatrics etc, a far cry from great composition. Only speed and technique there, "mcdonalds music", "guitar olympics" etc.

Well Al sat down and gave the music to the amazing technician Barrueco and interepreted a duet. Manuel admited the rhythmic difficulties of the piece. Not technical like finger speed, but RHTYHMIC difficulty. You dont' have to be a jazzer or flamenco or classical aficionado to hear clearly that he was not so comfy keeping the groove of the basic lead melody he did it but it was very forced and stiff. There was no improvisation, just the main composed parts. Now he sits in PDL's chair, but keep in mind this music is supposed to be not so sophisticated (so it gets critiqued) and only a demo of fast scales fusion...so what was the problem?

I can imagine, despite not being able to read a score, any top young flamenco player to handle those parts in a natural unstiff way. Likewise any jazz player or any type of musician that can play in tight ensembles. I applaud the efforts of Barueco to even explore such a project, but hopefully some perspective can be derived there on what technique and interpretation really mean to overall playing level. In flamenco we hear that moraito and his music is simple or easier than others, yet only a handful faithfully interpret his stuff convincingly, and they happen to be quite accomplished individuals themselves.

Here is a fun thought, master class with BACH himself with heifitz, casals, and segovia in the class. Would they be nervous? How will they feel if Bach said they all needed to play SLOWER to get the rhythm because nobody could dance to THAT!!!

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 20 2013 17:50:28

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to estebanana)

Ladies and gents: the definitive recording of the Spanish guitar repertoire. forget the rest.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 20 2013 18:05:52

Kevin

Posts: 294
Joined: Sep. 7 2008

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Sure...that's why you stirred it up AGAIN.

Wasn't me.

quote:

But not to repeat but I disagree with most of your points. He paved a road for Solo concert guitar, even for flamencos. Perhaps his arrogance helped that happen. It is not fair to simply guess that it would have been paved without him...you have to acknowledge that it very well might NOT have happened. Paving a road makes all the rest possible but someone has to pave it. Today dirt roads still exist. Not saying you are wrong, just that it's not a 100% certainty concert solo guitar would have ever been so popular and inspired. Even today we have aficionados that are not fans of solo guitar as long as cante exists.

Montoya had a recording and concert career in Paris and that led to part of his popularity. Your assumption about Segovia paving the way for flamencos is totally unfounded. Nino Ricardo also recorded fairly early in Paris. The French seemed to take a liking to flamenco relatively early. And flamencos did not need Segovia to do it.

quote:

Fingers I talked much about, not insecurity but rather he could have been annoyed at students not getting the point of his fingerings that he was quite serious about. Let em miss the point and do it their own way, and what is there left to learn really? THere are surely special cases as I tried to point out, but if you want to generalize about it sure, he seems unreasonable.

A great teacher takes everything into account; is your scale length proper, are your hands small (very important for fingerings as you have pointed out in other threads), if ones hands are to small what is the best way to accomodate the melody and harmony (can one drop octaves for example, or exclude some notes that will facilitate less of a stretch). The person in question was my teacher and I certainly new how he felt (at least on one occasion) about the debacle.

quote:

I think it would have been A LOT harder or impossible otherwise.

I don't. It might have occurred later but knowledge and practices spread. People (Americans, or more properly US citizens) tend to think that the combustible engine and airplane were invented in America. They weren't and the technology spread. The Germans and Japanese (WWII plug here) both innovated fighter planes and automobiles. They would have done so with or without Henry Ford and the Wright brothers. In fact, many American innovations are made by immigrants.

Barrios existed without Segovia, Williams as well. PDL too.

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 20 2013 19:05:35

BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to Ramon Amira)

quote:

Segovia himself surely also knew all that, but instead of trying to put them at ease, and allow them to relax so they could perform at their best and true level, he would sit there stone-faced and unsmiling...By contrast, I also attended master classes as a guest of Pepe Romero. What a difference! Pepe would mingle with the students, smiling, kidding around, and put them entirely at ease.

Andres Segovia was born in 1893. Pepe Romero was born in 1944. I would suggest that each was a product of his time. In European universities, conservatories, and under a maestro in Segovia's time, there was a very clear distinction made between the professor (or maestro) and the student. Professors and masters were the equivalent of gods, and the student's job was to absorb their wisdom. It was not to question and have a dialogue such as we are used to in the US, and which has occurred in Europe as well, at least since 1968 and after. I suspect Segovia was very much of this old European tradition of the master and the student, and much of his personality and interaction (or lack thereof) with students must be understood within that framework.

Pepe Romero, on the other hand, came of age as things were changing, certainly in the US but in Europe as well. More openness, questioning, a far greater rapport between professors and masters and their students. Romero was not burdened with the old tradition that enveloped Segovia. I think that old European tradition might explain Segovia's personality and behavior more than anything else.

Cheers,

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 20 2013 19:22:58

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

Montoya had a recording and concert career in Paris and that led to part of his popularity. Your assumption about Segovia paving the way for flamencos is totally unfounded. Nino Ricardo also recorded fairly early in Paris. The French seemed to take a liking to flamenco relatively early. And flamencos did not need Segovia to do it.

Classical Guitar magazine published an article by a gent that researched the Musical Reviews which were very popular in Paris and discovered that there was a huge enthusiasm for Spanish music at the time (between the wars) and that Segovia was distressed by the popularity of Ramon as he was trying to have the guitar accepted as an instrument on a par with the classical.

As far as inventions as say the airplane the Wright Brothers made the first CONTROLLABLE plane as they developed a method to control the aspect of the wings. What this has to do with the guitar I can't imagine.

The guitar audience didn't really expand until the conclusion of the 2nd war and the improvements to the stereophonic reproduction system and the development of the 12" vinyl LP which could contain an entire sonata whereas the 78rpm disc offered only a few minutes of music. Due to mass distribution Segovia's remarkable sound regardless of the carping of the purists made him a household name and Montoya and his degraded flamenco was relegated to the college circuit. Yes Ray del la Torre was every bit as fine a musician as Segovia but he lacked the drive to make the guitar a crusade as did Segovia. After reading the bio of Williams it is very clear the his father was transfixed by the Segovia sound and began the studies of his son at age 4 with the idea of eventually having the boy study with the master.
Would Len Williams have determined his sons future if he had never hear of Segovia? Would Julian Bream determined to make his life as a classical guitarist if he had not heard the magical recording of Segovia playing the Requerdos? I don't think so but it is all after all speculation.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 20 2013 19:41:30

Erik van Goch

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan

Hearing Barrueco's Vox LP of Albeniz and Granados was a revelation in guitar playing for me. I think he said he had listened to Alicia Delarrocha's piano versions, my favorites. My ex-wife, a classical pianist, said that Barrueco was the first classical guitarist she really liked.......He was anything but stiff, but his rubato was musically inspired, in the sense of the great pianists and other musicians of the day--no technique-induced gaps that I remember.

RNJ

At the time my father and i also considered him to be the best classical player around. My father as well became an expert in early music by studying old books/partitures and by listening to the best examples/performers available (like the dutch harpsichord player Gustav Leonhardt, Ton Koopmans and flute player Frans Brüggen who at the time were ahead on most others in the netherlands...nowadays people like Jordi Savall would be the source of inspiration to listen to).

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 20 2013 21:02:47

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to aeolus)

Go to youtube and enjoy some witty and insightful comments.

I hope they help you keep up the great level of debate.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 20 2013 23:00:28

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3431
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

I want to interrupt this fabulously on topic thread to speak about Somali Warlords and other crap I have no control over.....

~but first I have a question for RNJ about AS:

Richard,

I heard you once say that Segovia changed his sound after he first heard himself recorded. I was wondering if you would be so kind as to elaborate on that idea? I'm interested in a total reevaluation of Segovia for myself I think that may be an entry point.
dozo..

Properly phrased, I should have said he changed his way of playing. The tone is recognizably Segovia's on the early recordings. I think the phonograph affected many musicians. But I hasten to say this is just speculation on my part. I never talked to anyone who said it affected them, nor have I seen such a statement in print.

There has been a lot of printed commentary from classical musicians that the recording business has raised expectations for technique to extremely high levels. Many of the current crop of younger players of all instruments are amazing virtuosi.

But as evidence of the phonograph's influence, I adduce, for instance the difference between the playing of Cortot, Thibaud and Casals on their first recordings, and a few years later. The pianist Cortot was notorious for playing on the cracks, but after the first recordings he cleaned up a good deal. Still far from perfectly accurate, but not as cavalier as on the earliest recordings I have heard. This takes nothing away from the delicious swing and stomp of their early Haydn "Hungarian" Trio.

The fount of wisdom on the Beethoven sonatas is the set by Schnabel. But each succeeding generation of pianists has advanced in big strides in technical virtuosity

I think Segovia is more metrically precise after his 1929-33 recordings, despite his romantically elastic rubato and technique driven rhythmic distortions.

Playing with a metronome a piece you have had under your fingers for years can be very informative. Listening to a recording can be, too.

But don't take my word for it. Listen to Segovia's first recordings, then this very well remastered later collection

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=53403

and let us know what you think.

If public libraries still stock classical music, this is a set the Oakland, Berkeley or San Francisco libraries ought to have.

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 21 2013 0:20:04

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3431
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

Well Al sat down and gave the music to the amazing technician Barrueco and interepreted a duet. Manuel admited the rhythmic difficulties of the piece. Not technical like finger speed, but RHTYHMIC difficulty. You dont' have to be a jazzer or flamenco or classical aficionado to hear clearly that he was not so comfy keeping the groove of the basic lead melody he did it but it was very forced and stiff.

Yes. A few years back a CD came out of some of the leading Renaissance/Baroque classical guys doing Santiago de Murcia and the like. The CD notes made a big deal of the dances being banned by the government for being too lewd and obscene. The guys on the CD would have been booed off the stage (or worse) in a 17th century Seville dance hall for their tight-ass playing.

A more contemporary example is the burgeoning popularity of mariachi as a high school subject in areas of the USA with a significant Latino population. Much of it is hopelessly square. But if you put on a record of the old Mariachi Vargas de Tecalitlan from the late 1920s and pour me a couple shots of tequila, I will get up and dance--talk about a spectacle that ought to be banned by the government...

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 21 2013 0:37:25

Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to Kevin)

quote:

Montoya had a recording and concert career in Paris and that led to part of his popularity. Your assumption about Segovia paving the way for flamencos is totally unfounded. Nino Ricardo also recorded fairly early in Paris. The French seemed to take a liking to flamenco relatively early. And flamencos did not need Segovia to do it.

Montoya had established a "recording career" in regards to playing for cante....but you really think anybody would have thought about his solo pieces all on one album and a solo concert/tour if not for the already established image of "the spanish guitarist" Segovia had created on stage and on discs? Segovia had already given concerts in Paris first, including 1924 famous international debut concert, and done tour already of South America etc, first recordings made in 1927. Montoya's first time performing solo for big audience was 10 years after Segovia, also in Paris, 1934. And he had not even recorded his "famous" solo album yet. That he recorded 2 years later. For sure nipping at the heels, but would there have been the market for "concert flamenco guitar"? Montoya was older and professional performing artist longer, why not push the solo guitar gig sooner? After he did the South American thing just like segovia did before too. It's understandable why Segovia was a bit nervous of course. It is only conjecture that Montoya would have done it all alone of his own idea.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 21 2013 7:00:10

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to estebanana)

There is one point that has been overlooked and that is the difference between playing a transcription of a major work as faithfully as possible and playing falsetas of ones own invention. One assumes that a guitarist would not attempt a chord he could not play without difficulty. Mention was made of Moraito playing easy pieces. Does a flamenco player ever play without a capo? PDL does on the Aranjuez, handily. Segovia could have played the chord in a different position but I assume he didn't want to change the sonority.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 21 2013 14:59:03

Kevin

Posts: 294
Joined: Sep. 7 2008

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

It is only conjecture that
Montoya would have done it all alone of his own
idea.

It its also conjecture that there its some causal connection between Segovia's visit to Paris and Montoya's tour. It essentializes the French. There is no proof that the people that were interested in Montoya were the same people that were interested in Segovia. In fact, flamenco was already somewhat well received in France.

Your argument about Len was more convincing. But even then, my point was if not Williams, someone else. Barrios alone should be enough to show that there have been those who have escaped the influence of Segovia.

The digression about engines and airplanes was meant to illustrate that diffusion is not the only way information or technology or ideas become so common. Sometimes it happens that two people go at the same idea from different angles such a the case with Tesla and Edison.

The world would still have great guitar without him. The real question is a personal one; do you feel the musical world is better for having Segovia? Even I would say yes to that one.

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 21 2013 15:35:53

Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to aeolus)

quote:

ORIGINAL: aeolus

There is one point that has been overlooked and that is the difference between playing a transcription of a major work as faithfully as possible and playing falsetas of ones own invention. One assumes that a guitarist would not attempt a chord he could not play without difficulty. Mention was made of Moraito playing easy pieces. Does a flamenco player ever play without a capo? PDL does on the Aranjuez, handily. Segovia could have played the chord in a different position but I assume he didn't want to change the sonority.

Well, even segovia would admit a performer must play "within the circle of one's own technique"...meaning you don't want to challenge yourself on stage as much as at home. The implication that ones own composition is "easier" to play than someone else's is true generally, but depends on the specifics again. About capo, it's a double edge sword. Classical players like to use two cop outs regarding the speed of flamenco players generally...1. action, 2. capo. I played Montoya's guitar and it was not super low. The action will be specific to the player, for sure the average flamenco will prefer low action for the sound the strings make when strumming. High action sounds like mud. The more virtuosic flamencos prefer a bit more stiffness and higher action so they can play and project melodies stronger. Low action guitars great for strumming fret out and buzz so much you can't make a clear sound.

The capo is double edged on one hand the capo will permit a slightly lower action but mainly easier WIDE STRETCHES. But in the upper positions, it makes passages EXTREMELY uncomfortable. Again we need specifics, but it should be understood flamenco players don't use capo ever for sake of stretches as if playing a wide spread falseta, what do to with the lower voiced singer? No, the reason is more for the sound and tone the guitar brings in a higher or lower position. And the answer do they EVER play without the answer is absolutely YES quite often they have no choice and others they choose to do it.

Now Segovia got lots of critic for his adaption of say Bach (vs say the Albeniz) to the guitar. Like I pointed out, he had "andalusian hand jive" regarding fingering to do essentially what flamencos do when they compose....try to make fluid connections of phrases like a little dance of the hand. Sometimes yes he had to change the composer's music to do it. The main problem I and other flamencos have is why he refused to acknowledge both the technical skill of his contemporary flamencos, and belittle their compositional ability too. While even montoya of course had traditional things in his repertoire and style, the fact he played his OWN music on stage should tell any classical fan Montoya was MORE LIKE Paganini (composer), and Segovia more like Heifitz (interpretor ONLY).

quote:

It its also conjecture that there its some causal connection between Segovia's visit to Paris and Montoya's tour.

In intro to Faucher's book, the summary of montoya's visit and subsequent recordings made in paris was spear headed by the parents of Rodrigo de Zayas, family friends that helped montoya travel to france. It seems Zaya's dad wanted Montoya to gain respect by recording solos on new 12 inch discs as had already done the classical greats. No mention of segovia is made but it was discussed that Montoyas music was "living" music...for sure there below the surface the implications are clear.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 21 2013 17:01:51

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 21 2013 17:08:49

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

Again we need specifics, but it should be understood flamenco players don't use capo ever for sake of stretches as if playing a wide spread falseta,

As I have said before I have never seen a video of Amigo without a capo at the first fret and I have downloaded some of his more well known compositions and they all called for capo at the first fret. To me Amigo is exceptional in his beautiful tone but as I see it there can be no other reason for the capo but to shorten the scale. But no disgrace in that at all. My point was as he was performing his own compositions he had the freedom to adjust the scope.

quote:

Like I pointed out, he had "andalusian hand jive" regarding fingering to do essentially what flamencos do when they compose..

That's interesting as he rarely would play a composition by a non-guitarist composer without having the opportunity to revise and adapt it as would be noted on the score. But that's not to say they were easy by any means!

quote:

The main problem I and other flamencos have is why he refused to acknowledge both the technical skill of his contemporary flamencos, and belittle their compositional ability too.

I am only aware of this comment regarding rescuing the guitar from the flamencos and have never read anything of his disparaging their technique.. But I did see a program on the History Channel on Manuel de Falla which included a segment on the de Falla crusade to revive the cante jondo which included a road trip by him, Segovia, de Lorca and de Falla's sister who was interviewed and expressed her horror at the taverns where they had to go to ferret out the singers. So from the evidence the status of the guitar was at an all time low and as an upwardly mobile
ambitious musician Segovia was trying to distance himself from the gypsies. He tried to reinvent himself as to his upbringing and much of his earlier descriptions of his origins were bogus. Think Jay Gatsby.

Are you speaking of Carlos or Ramon Montoya? From what I remember Carlos rode the guitar craze while it lasted on the college circuit which paid well but was not considered an outstanding example of the genre. Bream wrote of a visit with Segovia where he got a chance to play Segovia's Hauser. He thought it was incredible in every way but it's action was higher than most players could handle.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 21 2013 19:28:55

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

But I see a connection between AS and him as far as teaching styles.

Welcome to the real world. Most will think you'r a bum and a few if you'r lucky will see something worthwhile in you. I had a teacher who was in the master/pupil frame of mind and I just quit and carried on on my own as I had no higher ambitions. I described my experience on other forums without mentioning his name but others knew who I was talking about PM'd me and told me how he had treated them as if they were worthless and he could'd be bothered. I had 3 teachers and never learned a thing from any of them. To me giving lessons and not being able to deliver worthwhile information is stealing.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 21 2013 19:46:50

BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to aeolus)

quote:

From what I remember Carlos rode the guitar craze while it lasted on the college circuit which paid well but was not considered an outstanding example of the genre.

There are many critics of Carlos Montoya, and his playing has been critiqued here on the Foro on several occasions. I would only say that, however one considers Carlos Montoya's interpretation of flamenco, he did much more than just play the college circuit. I saw one of his performances in Phoenix, Arizona in 1960, and it was sold out. I also attended a performance by him at the Kennedy Center's Concert Hall in Washington, DC in 1982, and it, too, was sold out. He cast the net out to a wide audience and, in turn, got a huge response. Those were the days when a flamenco guitar performance consisted of just the solo flamenco guitarist. I would like to see more of that today.

Cheers,

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 21 2013 19:53:19

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

Those were the days when a flamenco guitar performance consisted of just the solo flamenco guitarist.

Was he really able to capture your attention for what at least and hour and a half. I don't think I could listen to a solo flamenco guitarist for that long. Yes, as part of a dance troupe with a full panoply of gypsy performance. Fantastic! But a solo flamenco recital? But there were touring troupes in the states in the 50s and 60s such as El Greco who surprisingly was an Italian who grew up in Brooklyn! Small world! It has been reported that Rose Augustine had invited members of the troupe to her home and they performed to the accompaniment of Segovia as he was living in her home at the time.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 21 2013 20:27:23

BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to aeolus)

quote:

Was he really able to capture your attention for what at least and hour and a half. I don't think I could listen to a solo flamenco guitarist for that long. Yes, as part of a dance troupe with a full panoply of gypsy performance. Fantastic! But a solo flamenco recital? But there were touring troupes in the states in the 50s and 60s such as El Greco who surprisingly was an Italian who grew up in Brooklyn! Small world! It has been reported that Rose Augustine had invited members of the troupe to her home and they performed to the accompaniment of Segovia as he was living in her home at the time.

I could easily listen to an hour-and-a-half flamenco guitar recital then, and I could do it now. Back then, Carlos Montoya, Sabicas, Manitas de Plata and others just performed solo. I remember seeing Jose Greco's dance troupe. Paco de Lucia played guitar with Jose Greco's group as a very young man.

Cheers,

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 21 2013 20:36:56

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

I remember seeing Jose Greco's dance troupe. Paco de Lucia played guitar with Jose Greco's group as a very young man.

I remember on several occasions seeing the troupe in San Antonio and their guitarist was given one solo number which received the most applause and it was clear the audience wanted an encore but the program moved on. i like to think it was a young PDL.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 21 2013 21:05:20

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to aeolus)

There was a guitarist based in San Antonio named Miguel Rodriguez who is quite good, and he also happened to do a tour in Jose Greco's outfit. Miguel also plays some classical and bossa nova (unfortunately--I would rather hear his awesome flamenco than his Baden Powell and Jobim). Miguel relocated to Phoenix perhaps in the 80s and still gigs here regularly.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 21 2013 21:46:31

Erik van Goch

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to aeolus)

quote:

ORIGINAL: aeolus

As I have said before I have never seen a video of Amigo without a capo at the first fret

this one was posted on the foro quite recently.

http://www.elperiodico.com/es/noticias/ocio-y-cultura/vicente-amigo-hace-celta-2343179

in case you doubt above recording check these ones...no capo at 1

but i must admit those are indeed rare exceptions to his "capo on 1" rule :-)

PDL on the other hand never stops to amaze me. It seems the normal limitations like playing above 12th position or using a capo to fit the chosen key don't count for him. When he uses a capo it's not to ease the left hand but because he prefers the sound of it and he quite often uses/needs the complete guitar without capo to cover his (multi keyed) ideas.

You're partly right about the benefits of playing self composed material over playing other ones compositions. Every mind/set of hands is different and if you enjoy creative freedom you can avoid your weak spots and exploit your strong points if you want. But it all depends on your skills and ambitions. I don't think the big guys let playability dictate there musical ideas, they are just more ambitious to get it out of there guitar (not all ideas are dictated by your hands and sometimes you have to do almost impossible things to realize a conceptual idea that popped up in your mind). I don't think PDL did start composing because he could not play existing material :-)

Personally i hardly ever use a capo at home and the big stretches just force me to use my left hand as economical as possible. My own compositions are equally difficult to play as material i work out from others (and equally ambitious).

This new video of John Walsh clearly shows that a capo on 1 and playing self composed material allows one to avoid left hand gripping that doesn't come easy :-)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 21 2013 21:46:48

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 22 2013 0:57:59

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

This new video of John Walsh clearly shows that a capo on 1 and playing self composed material allows one to avoid left hand gripping that doesn't come easy :-)

Yes Walsh keeps his fingers in tight. Nice playing. You may have seen this one, a favorite of mine. No capo and some stretches too.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 22 2013 11:25:51

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

Man, I guess you are really used to getting abused by classical teachers. The teacher I mentioned had that attitude when teaching but changed his attitude completely when separated from the lesson. That's why I bring it up, because it's more to do with the teaching style than their opinion on their students. And even though he exhibited that method with me, I have always been quick on my feet so it didn't affect me so much as my brother. He liked that about me but I always felt bad because even though my brother has always been slower at learning than me he is as smart or smarter than me and with some patience could have really gotten there. So my point was more about the "old mentality" rather than exposing the "real world".

I met one guy who was turned down as a student because his hands were too big. He was told he would never be able to learn. The guy was still angry calling him an SOB with some vehemence My problem was I had been playing too long and could never correct my bad habits. He said he would help me with repertory . He asked me to bring in my music and I had quite a pile: he went through it an gave me a sizable number and asked me to make copies for him. But what turned me off was he was taking tickets for a concert the Society had sponsored (John Williams) and when I arrived with my wife he looked straight trough me without a glimmer of recognition. I called the guitar store the next morning and cancelled my lessons. He was right of course as I was to set in my ways. In his defense at this time he had a high-school kid as a pupil who is now a true monster player (classical) so I guess it was a chore to try to teach klutzes.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 22 2013 13:26:02

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

There was a guitarist based in San Antonio named Miguel Rodriguez

That could have been him...he plays with a lot of energy!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 22 2013 17:59:25

Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to aeolus)

quote:

Are you speaking of Carlos or Ramon Montoya?

Always and forever RAMON!!!!!!!! por favor.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 22 2013 19:20:51

Erik van Goch

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to aeolus)

quote:

ORIGINAL: aeolus

quote:

This new video of John Walsh clearly shows that a capo on 1 and playing self composed material allows one to avoid left hand gripping that doesn't come easy :-)

Yes Walsh keeps his fingers in tight. Nice playing.

Actually i mend it cynical, but in above quote both views are indeed correct .... there are indeed lots of tight and relative "hand friendly" moves, but there are also some pretty demanding parts that must have taken him a lot of time and effort to master and although everything looks playable in HIS hands he most certainly did not compose this music to please his hands :-).

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 23 2013 0:06:49