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RE: Segovia and flamenco
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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 RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to guitarbuddha)
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Nothing about flamenco in it, but last night I finished reading Alfredo Escande's "Don Andres and Paquita: the Life of Segovia in Montevideo" translated into English by Charles and Marisa Postlewate.
http://tinyurl.com/c235m2p
It is an interesting account of an otherwise undocumented period. Segovia's second wife was Paquita Madriguera, the favorite pupil of Granados. She was a child prodigy, concert pianist and composer. They fled Barcelona at the beginning of the Spanish Civil War, and ended up in Montevideo, where Madriguera had been the wife of a prominent lawyer, several years her senior.
One of Madriguera's daughters, regarded by Segovia as a step-daughter, and showered with affection and gifts of money until Segovia's death, had an illuminating comment.
"I don't think Andres had a life. I think he had several different fractions of a life--three wives, four children by different women..."
Segovia was no saint. But at my own age, if I spent time repenting all the things I have done wrong, I wouldn't have time to do anything right.
RNJ
quote:
by Mark Twain:
A great benefaction conferred with your whole heart upon an ungrateful man -- with what immortal persistence and never-cooling energy do you repent of that! Repentance of a sin is a pale, poor, perishable thing compared with it.
I am quite sure that the average man is built just as I am; otherwise I should not be making this revelation of my inside. I say the average man and stop there; for I am quite certain that there are people who do not repent of their good deeds when the return they get for them is treachery and ingratitude. I think that these few ought to be in heaven; they are in the way here.
In my time I have committed several millions of sins. Many of them I probably repented of -- I do not remember now; others I was partly minded to repent of, but it did not seem worthwhile; all of them but the recent ones and a few scattering former ones I have forgotten. In my time I have done eleven good deeds. I remember all of them, four of them with crystal clearness. These four I repent of whenever I think of them -- and it is not seldomer than fifty-two times a year. I repent of them in the same old original furious way, undiminished, always. If I wake up away in the night, they are there, waiting and ready; and they keep me company till the morning. I have not committed any sin that has lasted me like this save one; and have not repented of any sin with the unmodifying earnestness and sincerity with which I have repented of these four gracious and beautiful good deeds.
Possibly you who are reading these paragraphs are of those few who have got mislaid and ought to be in heaven. In that case you will not understand what I have been saying and will have no sympathy with it; but your neighbor will, if he is fifty years old.
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Date Mar. 19 2013 16:04:38
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Kevin
Posts: 294
Joined: Sep. 7 2008
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RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
quote:
Mystery man: how did he fool all those composers and fans into thinking he was a superior artist.
Simple. Talk smack about (or pretend they don't exist) those that were frighteningly close to his technical level on guitar, and bad mouth other genres, so it was clear who is superior and what separates high art from low art.
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My whole point was not to judge the man (even though I made it clear what it is that I think about him).
I had two points in the original post. First, I believe the guitar would be close to what it is today without Segovia. Did he give us some great works through his collaborations? Sure? Did he make some good transcriptions? Sure. However, most of the serious repertoire was transcribed and Williams' lute suites stand out for that. Also, Williams transcribed much of the Spanish repertoire himself. I for one am certain that the guitar would still be very similar to what it is today without the man. People seem to forget that Williams was already an advanced guitarist when Segovia made his ridiculous and now famous claim about god laying a finger on Williams' brow.
Anyway, my other point that I did not make very clear is that based on how Segovia treated Barrios, how he feared or worried about Montoya's international recording and concert career, how he treated the UCLA masterclass people when they did not adhere to his fingerings, and how he derided flamenco all point to insecurity.
Some people gloss over his flaws by claiming that we are all flawed. Certainly this is true but it's a platitude. It communicates nothing. If you look at Segovia's generosity vs. his critical attitude you will see that the critical attitude is always directed at anyone that poses a threat to him in some way; Barrios by smoking him on the guitar, Montoya (and later Paco) for having careers and being great players, the UCLA masterclass for undermining his authority, and flamenco in general for advancing its language so much. Meanwhile his generosity is directed at those that can help him.
P.S. I hope this thread dies soon. 
_____________________________
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Date Mar. 19 2013 18:22:28
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to aeolus)
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quote:
And I have probably every book in English written about AS but I don't in anyway consider myself an expert. I haven't read any posts on this thread to convince me that there are ANY experts on Segovia here.
You probably are correct that there are no real experts on Segovia here, Aeolus. Nevertheless, there are lots of opinions on Segovia, as you can tell by reading this thread. And there are lots of opinions on those who voice opinions on Segovia, as you also may have noted. They range from questioning how much one has read and understands about Segovia, his life, his mode of teaching, his relationships, and his attitude toward flamenco; to one post that labeled as "idiots" those who teach that classical guitar is the only kind of guitar worth studying. (Strong language!) Nevertheless, whether one appreciates Segovia (as I do) or considers him an elitist with few redeeming qualities, I would suggest it is not worth getting wrapped around the axle either way.
By the way, I have read many of Nietzche's works. Nietzche probably would have praised Segovia as a giant among the common mob, as he (Nietzche) would have termed Segovia an example of the "Ubermensch," which is sometimes translated into English as "Superman," but which really has the connotation (as Nietzche used it in German) of transcending ordinary human limitations. Many times he wrote in aphorisms. One of my favorites comes from his book "The Joyful Science." He calls it "Laughable": "Look, look, he runs away from men. They follow him, however, because he runs before them. They are a gregarious lot!"
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Mar. 19 2013 18:35:29
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to aeolus)
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quote:
Barrios stripped to the waist in native garb was bound to fail in this milieu.
In that respect, Barrios was a bit of a fraud. He took the name "Mangore," after a 16th century Paraguayan Indian Cacique. And he performed using the name Nitsuga Mangore, supposedly as a tribute to the Indian heritage of Paraguay. I think he allowed the myth to percolate that he was part Guarani Indian, yet, there does not appear to be any evidence that Barrios had indigenous Indian blood. I appreciate his compositions, but I would have found the theatrical "Guarani" persona he adopted off-putting.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Mar. 19 2013 19:34:24
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to estebanana)
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I still haven't gotten around to ordering the Gilardino biography, and I'm giving Segovia a break for a while after reading Escande.
While Poveda's Spanish "biography" is openly worshipful, with many remarks based upon his personal friendship with Segovia, Escande's editorial stance is, overtly at least, neutral. He seldom comes out with opinions, confining himself mostly to quotations of other people, press accounts and reviews. He quotes a number of glowing reviews of Madriguera as performer and composer, and at least one complete hatchet job.
The quoted press reviews of Segovia are unanimously enthusiastic. There is documented evidence for the high esteem he was held in by Heifetz, Toscanini, Rubinstein and other greater and lesser musicians and composers, who invited him to their homes, and socialized with him during concert tours.
I note that these three were not universally admired as individuals, but there has not been a reaction against them personally in the conducting, violin or piano worlds. Indeed, Heifetz is still seen as something of a demigod by such a virtuoso as Perlman.
On Segovia's New York affair with Olga Coelho, which led to the breakup of his marriage with Madriguera, Escande does not hesitate to quote the outraged, even venomous remarks of those who took Paquita's side.
Escande concludes with a chapter on Segovia's daughter by Madriguera, Beatriz. He details her unhappy childhood. Madriguera's three daughters by Puig spent much of their early lives in boarding schools as well, but Beatriz was inconsolable upon her separation from Montevideo when, after the divorce, her mother moved to Buenos Aires, taking Beatriz with her, but boarding her out so Madriguera could pursue her renewed artistic career..
As a young teenager, and a young adult, Segovia took Beatriz to Europe on concert tours and spent months with her. Still, Escande quotes Maria Rosa, Madriguera's daughter to whom Segovia remained attached throughout his life, showering her with affection and gifts of money. Maria Rosa tells the story of Beatriz's suicide at age 24, attributed by many to a "romantic disillusionment." But Maria Rosa says the cause was deeper and went back to childhood, when Segovia was "an absent father."
Maria Rosa and the other two Puig Madriguera daughters remained good friends with Segovia as long as he lived. long after they had made good marriages to wealthy men and were no longer dependent upon him for partial support.
My own father was absent during the entirety of WW II, a couple of years of the Occupation of Japan, two years during the Berlin airlift, and the first year of a three year tour of duty in Alaska before we could join him. It had its effects. I still wish I could have had a closer relationship with him. But my brother and I have survived into old age, self supporting and relatively successful.
It's hard to think Segovia, or anyone else could foresee Beatriz's suicide as a consequence of his itinerant lifestyle as a performing artist. Of course, absent fathers were routine in military life, and an anomaly in the highly conventional upper class milieu of Montevideo.
Escande remains scrupulously neutral. There is a thick section of documentation at the back of the book, which I haven't perused in any detail.
It is in fact a platitude that we are all flawed, but just because it's boring doesn't make it unimportant. That's why I thought to quote Twain's witty skewering of those who live in glass houses, but still throw stones.
RNJ
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Date Mar. 20 2013 0:54:48
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Ricardo
Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to Kevin)
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quote:
P.S. I hope this thread dies soon.
Sure...that's why you stirred it up AGAIN.
But not to repeat but I disagree with most of your points. He paved a road for Solo concert guitar, even for flamencos. Perhaps his arrogance helped that happen. It is not fair to simply guess that it would have been paved without him...you have to acknowledge that it very well might NOT have happened. Paving a road makes all the rest possible but someone has to pave it. Today dirt roads still exist. Not saying you are wrong, just that it's not a 100% certainty concert solo guitar would have ever been so popular and inspired. Even today we have aficionados that are not fans of solo guitar as long as cante exists.
Fingers I talked much about, not insecurity but rather he could have been annoyed at students not getting the point of his fingerings that he was quite serious about. Let em miss the point and do it their own way, and what is there left to learn really? THere are surely special cases as I tried to point out, but if you want to generalize about it sure, he seems unreasonable.
About Montoya and Barrios, yes you do have a point there. Although we know quite well how people like to use "personal taste" to either glorify or belittle music they love or hate. It could very well be how he felt and not a sinister plot to stay on top...such as some in the art world of course are guilty of, but normally of their OWN genre. Even today many aficionados are not montoya fans etc...too many notes. Segovia DID like Manolo de Huelva who was a great artist too. I have to draw the line at PDL though who broke into the big concert stage in Spain with solo guitar, essentially championing the guitar as Segovia had done, only, with flamenco. I don't think he needed to state PDL had no technique, vs his own classical students. It would have been different if he simply did not like PDL musical direction. But I must admit thanks to Segovia and popularity of guitar and it's acceptance on the same stage as other concert instruments, PDL was able to do that thing. I think it would have been A LOT harder or impossible otherwise.
quote:
There is a slight hesitation in this recording but making a big deal of it is silly
Silly of course, unless RHYTHM is your thing.... well, then it's ALL ABOUT that.
You called my assessment of segovia (coloring him for both good points and faults) shallow but don't want to accept my specific points...even I used YOUR example. It's all silly, and so it was for you to make a big deal about a single foro member liking my comments on the topic. Lets move on.
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Mar. 20 2013 12:29:55
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Ricardo
Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to aeolus)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: aeolus
It's about a nano second lost. And do you think what you wrote is the finest assessment ever?
At 150 bpm it is longer than a 16th, maybe two (32nds at 75bpm) if you slow it down, it's very significant. All throughout there are nano second adjustments. Those adjustments are not ALWAYS deliberate, most sound and feel as hick ups of the right hand to make up for the left to catch up. Couple of them are to emphasize the bass note, but for sure there is not a groove all the time, and in the trickiest spot it's made super obvious why the rhythm is broken. This section Bach clearly sets up a groove, and segovia even tells the girl to accent the top notes, it is like the snare in a drum groove. I praised Segovia's chaconne OVERALL as a beautiful story telling performance in the face of critics of it (usually bowed instrument players or keyboardists). In other pieces these type of hick ups interupt the flow and this way to play is a general trend of segovia's style. I dont' think it fair to pretend that his use of rubato is always deliberate and artistic mastery of elasticity when it is clear to us players that it happens in spots it shouldn't because of the difficulty of the passage. Nano seconds is what it is all about, and in his quote "the delicate lack of respect for the rhythm we define the good or the bad artist".
THe challenge for flamenco players is to maintain the right hand at all cost...miss the chord or note it is ok, but not the groove when it is supposed to because of the feeling expressed by maintaining the groove and accents. Flamenco players also tend to speed up the challenging parts rather than slow down for sake of difficulty, but that too is a generalization. As we look at specifics we always find exception. But the vast majority of classical players follow his lead and allow the left hand to force the right hand to hesitate (your word) for sake of the clear note, and is like a knife in the heart to anyone that is deeply into rhythmic feel and expression.
Anyway, my perspective is what it is. I play flamenco but grew up in a house hold where I heard about segovia all the time, and grew up to view him as a god. Studied his recordings closer in college as I was also discovering flamenco. My assessment is as objective as I can be, no more no less and if other's find it the greatest thing ever or worst shyte ever written, it's not my problem. If they don't understand why I said what I did, I am happy to try to clarify. I know we ALL get annoyed when someone speaks negatively about our favorite players, but it is simply up to US to either not care, or try to bring new light on the subject in hopes others will catch on to WHY we like something or not.
Ricardo
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Mar. 20 2013 13:26:49
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Ramon Amira
Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City
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RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to aeolus)
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In the world of the arts their has always been this tension and division between personal character and artistic persona. Some people can divorce the two and consider them separately, others insist that the two are integrated, and if you reject one part you must reject the whole. Wagner was acknowledged as a great composer, but no one would play his music in Israel because he was a noted anti-semite, until Daniel Barenboim conducted an all Wagner concert.
I personally acknowledge Segovia’s great contribution to the world of classical guitar, and probably by extension to guitar in general and consequently to flamenco guitar. But as a man, my own personal experiences with Segovia left me with distaste if not disgust.
In my days as a critic I reviewed Segovia several times, and on numerous occasions I met him in private circumstances. I never once saw him smile. He was simply a cold and dour person. Perhaps the vicissitudes of life as discussed above affected his personality to make him so, but there it was.
What turned me off the most though was his demeanor at his master classes, and the way he treated the students. I attended several, not as a student but as an observer. Like any professional I know all too well the work, blood, sweat, and tears that go into reaching a certain level of proficiency, and I knew what those students had gone through to prepare for Segovia’s master class, and the apprehension they felt.
Segovia himself surely also knew all that, but instead of trying to put them at ease, and allow them to relax so they could perform at their best and true level, he would sit there stone-faced and unsmiling, with what could almost be described as a menacing demeanor. It was painful to watch, and even heart-breaking. You could see the fear on the students’ faces, and invariably it was reflected in their playing, which for the most part because of the circumstances came out far below their true capabilities. Does anybody think that these students learned anything.
By contrast, I also attended master classes as a guest of Pepe Romero. What a difference! Pepe would mingle with the students, smiling, kidding around, and put them entirely at ease. As might be expected, they consequently were relaxed and played at the top of their form. Pepe would make keen but encouraging comments. Every student came away feeling great and that he or she had learned a lot.
Ramon
_____________________________
Classical and flamenco guitars from Spain Ramon Amira Guitars
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Date Mar. 20 2013 14:25:20
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