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Since years I am keen to see ancient Kauri used for classical guitars ( and negras) and have been trying to attract luthiers´ attention for this material.
However, at first there was near zero info available, and the folks who have hands on logging these trunks from swamps in New Zealand ceased talking to me ( I was inquring for AG blanks ) after me critisized their making use of such unique material for plain furnitures, while to my understanding such should be used for instruments in the first place.
Anyway, every other time I make another search to check out actual info on the matter, and so did today after recalling this material while posting in Anders´violine thread.
The Ancient Kauri offers an unequaled look into time, well before the last ice age. Yet because it can be shaped and worked in ways that are comfortable and familiar, we get a connection to a time in a way not found anywhere else in the world today.
It is difficult to describe exactly what the subtleties of any wood are, as they change from piece to piece and grain to grain. Ancient Kauri can be cut, shaped, sanded, and finished with normal techniques. Although the wood is similar in density to Cherry, with textures similar to Basswood and Mahogany, the Ancient Kauri is an unmatched wood to work with.
Facts
These massive trees grew for approximately 2,000 years before falling into swamps. The earth has held these logs for over 50,000 years.
The Ancient Kauri is very wet when it leaves the ground and is kept wet for its journey to the US. Upon arrival at our facility in Northern Wisconsin, the wood is kiln-dried to a moisture content between 6 and 8 percent.
Ancient Kauri is not an oily wood.
Ancient Kauri is in no way petrified.
Standard glues and joining practices work great with Ancient Kauri.
Frequently Asked Questions
How will my Ancient Kauri bend?
As experienced luthiers know, patience is the best tool to use.
Here are some techniques from luthiers experienced with Ancient Kauri.
Stefan Nicholas, an innovative builder of classical guitars since the early 90’s, likes to use a veneer softener such as Better Bond Super Soft when working with Ancient Kauri. Stefan’s method includes using a liberal application of softener, then returning an hour later and replicating the process: letting the wood stand for another two to three hours. In the next step, Stefan places a few sheets of paper towel on each side of the board, pressing them flat with medium density fiberboard (MDF) and clamps; replacing the paper towel twice a day for four days. Once in the mold, Stefan leaves the wood until moisture is void -usually seven days.
Stefan states that a liberal application over a period of three to four days will make the sides very pliable in the mold. We have used this technique successfully as well.
John Grey, an experienced builder and innovative repair expert, reports that soaking the sides overnight before boiling them helps the pliability immensely. Should grain lifting occur, dilute the wood glue with one-third water (for better penetration) to stabilize lifted grain. A great tip from John is to use a wine cork for your clamping caul as it will provide even pressure on the curve.
Joshua Muntur, founder of Homeless Dog Custom Guitars, states that it is necessary to allow the sides to dry completely before removing them from the forms.
What does Ancient Kauri sound like?
We cautiously approach this subject, as tone is very subjective.
Jordan Grunow, owner of over forty electric guitars notes a present upper midrange attack supported by a well balanced and warm sustain in a solid body Kauri Telecaster. Builders of acoustic guitars have uniformly expressed satisfaction with their instruments:
The Kauri is just magnificent and the tone is awesome! Thanks again and I will be buying some more Kauri soon!
Do I need pore or grain sealer to finish Ancient Kauri?
Finishing Ancient Kauri does not require the use of a grain sealer.
What type of finish should I use?
Ancient Kauri will accept any of your favorite finishing methods. The wood does not have inherent properties that would prevent you from using one product over another.
We suggest customers use the techniques that are most successful in their shop. There is no reason to vary from your usual finishing methods.
We do suggest that you sand the Ancient Kauri to a very fine grit before finishing. Over 1000 grit is not uncommon.
What is the specific gravity of Ancient Kauri?
The Kauri tree grew as a softwood -a conifer. However, the characteristics of the Ancient Kauri are similar to hardwoods such as soft maple or cherry, or Mahogany
There are differences in the density of the Ancient Kauri from one piece to another, without significant changes in outward appearance. The changes seem to be related to its location underground for thousands of years. With no change in the color or outward appearance, the pieces that are lighter and less dense seem to have been buried near an underwater flowage of some sort. The pieces that are more dense seem to be from more stable ground.
There are accurate scientific measurements available for modern Kauri, but Ancient Kauri has endured changes while underground: within one tree there can be significant variation.
It is important to note that the following data refers to research on the more modern growth Kauri, harvested using traditional logging methods. It is quoted from Forest Products Lab Center for Wood Anatomy Research Fact Sheet on Kauri. Due to the changes present in this 50,000 year old wood, we do not believe this data is always accurate for the Ancient Kauri. Since we lack any other specific scientific data, we make this available.
Weight: Basic specific gravity (oven-dry weight/green volume) 0.41 to 0.47; air- dry density 30 to 36 pcf.
M echanical Properties: (First two sets of data based on the 2-in. standard, the third set on the 2- cm standard.)
Moisture content (%)
Green (34) 12%
Bending strength (Psi)
6,600 11,750
Modulus of elasticity (1,000 psi)
1,330 1,650
Maximum crushing strength (Psi)
2,840 5,900
Green (15) 12%
7,790 13,070
1,570 1,890
3,370 5,600
Green (35) 12%
Side hardness 480 to 760 lb for green material and 700 to 870 lb at 12% moisture content.
8,570 13,600
1,400 1,600
4,040 6,900
Drying and Shrinkage: The timber is reported to season well with little or no degrade. Kiln schedule T7-B3 is suggested for 4/4 stock (A. alba) and kiln schedule T10-D5S for 4/4 stock (A. australis and A. vitiensis). Shrinkage green to ovendry: radial 4.2%; tangential 6.0% (A. alba).
Working Properties: The timber works easily with hand and machine tools, finishes with a clean smooth surface; good nailing and screwing properties; good veneer peeling characteristics; paints and polishes well; easy to glue.
Other Tips
Plan to spend extra time sanding the Ancient Kauri. While sanding to 600 grit will suffice, the most intense color, depth, grain, and iridescent qualities come through with very fine sanding - up to 1200 grit. Extra effort gives extra rewards, and once you have passed 320 grit, sanding becomes more like polishing and you can move through the grits quickly.
Ruphus
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Agathis Australis. The species is endemic to New Zealand, and belong to the Araucariaceae plant family. .. The logs are below the surface of what are usually farm fields and ranch lands. When a site is identified, permission is secured and expert operators of heavy equipment carefully expose and lift the logs out of the prehistoric bogs. They are immense, and raising the logs to the surface is just part of the job: moving them to a location to begin the milling process, and the milling itself, has necessitated some innovative equipment designs and plain old lumber man's ingenuity. It can be worked with normal woodworking tools, in the same ways you are used to working with other species. One notable difference: when finishing Ancient Kauri, special rewards await the woodworker who sands Ancient Kauri to 600 grit and higher. The wood grains and textures seem to come alive when polished to these levels. Radio carbon dating places the age of the Ancient Kauri trees that are being excavated from the northland of New Zealand at 50,000 years old. This is the maximum limit of radio carbon dating, it is probable that this wood is even older.
Kauri is a warm wood with tonal qualities similar to Mahogany. It often exhibits spectacular "flash" under reflected light. *
Who has been talking of "magic" in performing aspects? ( Though it seems to function rather pretty well.) Do you want to say that this wood is not beautiful to your eyes, or is it just about pissing on a parade that isn´t there in the first place?
Very earthy colours in those back and side pictures. Reminds me of outback Australia. I think your eagle rosette would go well with this timber. It's interesting to see a guitar made out of something different anyway. Thanks for sharing!
This popped up in a thread once about Blanca woods. I think John Shelton liked it, he used its other name though, Damar Minyak.
I don't agree with the so called experts about boiling the wood, or soaking it for days in veneer softener; this seems like a bad idea for any wood in my opinion. No wonder the grain is falling apart on them.
I dont get what the peroblem is when it comes to bending. Are people having difficulties with bending it? Figured or splintery woods, I bend in my sidebender, packed in wet paper and aluminium foil, but I dont leave it to soak or boil it first.
This popped up in a thread once about Blanca woods. I think John Shelton liked it, he used its other name though, Damar Minyak.
You're correct, I used it as a substitute for cypress. The color is similar, it mills beautifully and is very stable. The smell is more like pine than cypress. I bought it from a hardwood supplier who had a huge stack of it in big dimensions. When I went back to buy more it had all been sold to a manufacturer of high school bleachers. I never ran across it again at any local venders. Of course the wood I used wasn't ancient. I don't recall how many guitars I built out of it but it was quite a few. Another really nice substitute for cypress is Kavaula although it's a little more yellow in color.
Absolutey, light-blue like with the eagle, or bright turquoise seem the ideal counter for reddish / golden wood!
Years ago when still thinking I could build a wooden house, I was envisioning reddish wood and small turquoise dots of accessoirs.
Yet tinkering with rosette design, trying to find out what could be best for a desert island guitar; and could be things to end up with just a pale ( ton sur ton) image. ( Only showing that I havn´t yet wettened my toes in the flood of potential options.) But colourful options are still in the game.
Sean,
That is an interesting hint there, about Kauri possibly fitting for blancas. I have always thought of it as hardwood-like, because of its long term soak and storage, which I imagenined as procedures nearing it to hard wood characteristics.
Hearing from you about it as a blanca option seems to make sense, seeing how the tree is actually a connifer species and even described as soft to work on ( the latter which I read of today first time). That´s rather good news to me, as blancas are my first thought regarding nylon guitars.
Anders,
If I may wildly gather: Could it be the methods described to be occasionally engaged in the acoustic steel string making for heavier builds, when it is aimed for thicker sides without laminating? >just speculating<
Meh, Kauri is is just another kind of Gum tree. Granted it gets big and grows for up to 2000 years. But it's wood is a lot like various Eucalyptus.
In San Francisco there are many turn of the century houses (19th to 20th century) that have built in dining room cabinets made of Kauri, and interior doors and trim work. The wood was brought from New Zealand in ships while they were deforesting New Zealand of Kauri between the 1880s and 1920's. They usually varnished it and later when clear finishes were out of style they panted over it. Once in a while you can see a house with Kauri wood trim under varnish.
To replace Kauri in historical restorations, which I have done, carpenters select local Eucalyptus that was imported here in the 19th century and grows like weeds. It is a treeweed. Then one can take a sample of the existing trim and give it to a mill, not very many of these around any longer (Thanks Ikea!) and have the trim pattern matched on a shaper cutter head. Then hundreds of lineal feet of Gum wood can be dimensioned and shaped to match the Kauri trim. A bit of stain and you get a match.
That is if the Yuppies who own the house don't paint over the 100 year old Ancient Kauri with Martha Stewart's flat interior latex 'Ultraviolet Mauve'...."Honey, honey! * stamps feet* You know I don't like plain wood, lets paint it.." She/he whined.
BTW "Ancient Kauri" is a trade name in the lumber business. It is the same type of blanket over trade name like "Ipe'" which is a whole bunch of species of Amazonian Basin Ironwoods packaged under one name so those who can't parse out different species don't get confused.
Ancient Kauri is just a marketers way of saying : Agricultural and waste salvaged timber. Not as sexy is it?
Ah, but will it make a guitar? Yes it will make guitar. And if you get one made of Ancient Kauri you can get a huge erection showing it to all the other guys and saying it Ancient Kauri.
Because that is what rare wood is all about, one guy getting a "special" wood species so he can show it to other guys and they can all draw in a deep breath and say "Oh my God, my pants are so tight right now!"
Meanwhile the plainest wood makes great guitars.
Schwing! Party on Garth.
So in conclusion having one made with "Ancient Kauri" TM will be the same as buying thirty packages of Viagra.
Steven, I think you are confusing Karri with Kauri Karri is the eucalypt from Western Australia Kauri is the connifer from New Zealand and also some other areas including Australia The ancient variety is recovered from being burried underground for long periods and hence has richer coloration
It's Kauri wood, and when we have to replace it the Agricultural salvage Eucalyptus matches the 100 year old Kauri. After the 1906 earth quake New Zealand imported Kauri wood to rebuild San Francisico. Sometimes ships made of Kauri that were of New Zealand origin were salvaged here and sold as timber. Old slab cut Kauri looks a lot like eucalyptus.
You can research the lumber trade mags of the early 1900's if you find them on micro film, an read about the kauri trade with San Francisco.
That photo of the guitar up thread looks exactly like the varnished woods you can still find in the dining rooms of old SF Victorians. And the Eucalyptus that grows in the hills here matches it.
You are probably right about it being Kauri in SF old buildings and eucalpts being used to replace it but they would be a very different material.
Kauri is an agathis, a softwood with closed pores not a hardwood like eucalyptus
It is quite ironic that there in california you end up with Kauri from NZ as a building material where we in Australia ended up with a lot of US douglas fir and californian redwood.
Meh, Kauri is is just another kind of Gum tree. Granted it gets big and grows for up to 2000 years. But it's wood is a lot like various Eucalyptus.
In San Francisco there are many turn of the century houses (19th to 20th century) that have built in dining room cabinets made of Kauri, and interior doors and trim work. The wood was brought from New Zealand in ships while they were deforesting New Zealand of Kauri between the 1880s and 1920's. They usually varnished it and later when clear finishes were out of style they panted over it. Once in a while you can see a house with Kauri wood trim under varnish.
To replace Kauri in historical restorations, which I have done, carpenters select local Eucalyptus that was imported here in the 19th century and grows like weeds. It is a treeweed. Then one can take a sample of the existing trim and give it to a mill, not very many of these around any longer (Thanks Ikea!) and have the trim pattern matched on a shaper cutter head. Then hundreds of lineal feet of Gum wood can be dimensioned and shaped to match the Kauri trim. A bit of stain and you get a match.
That is if the Yuppies who own the house don't paint over the 100 year old Ancient Kauri with Martha Stewart's flat interior latex 'Ultraviolet Mauve'...."Honey, honey! * stamps feet* You know I don't like plain wood, lets paint it.." She/he whined.
BTW "Ancient Kauri" is a trade name in the lumber business. It is the same type of blanket over trade name like "Ipe'" which is a whole bunch of species of Amazonian Basin Ironwoods packaged under one name so those who can't parse out different species don't get confused.
Ancient Kauri is just a marketers way of saying : Agricultural and waste salvaged timber. Not as sexy is it?
Ah, but will it make a guitar? Yes it will make guitar. And if you get one made of Ancient Kauri you can get a huge erection showing it to all the other guys and saying it Ancient Kauri.
Because that is what rare wood is all about, one guy getting a "special" wood species so he can show it to other guys and they can all draw in a deep breath and say "Oh my God, my pants are so tight right now!"
Meanwhile the plainest wood makes great guitars.
Schwing! Party on Garth.
So in conclusion having one made with "Ancient Kauri" TM will be the same as buying thirty packages of Viagra.
Further questions?
No questions, but a statement.
You are apparently suffering under inferiourity complex and material envy.
To picture me as wanting Kauri for status symbol and for showing off, only displays your observating disability. People who became close acquaintance over the course of my life would laugh about your triviality. Including those whose ways parted in discord. I can state with confidence to have if anything been understating in life. So much that it has more often than not been to my disadvantage.
The point is, jelous Stephen, that I do not need engaging on such pity level. I can mingle with yet the most trendy cliques who commonly will glance at folks from head to toe, scanning for fashion or no-no, dressing worn out jeans and nameless sneakers and be appreciated and respected despite. I will be treated like a gentleman in lofty ambience despite my worn 4 decades old fringe coat, and people like talking to me independently from their education.
What else ... Girls? Lesser since I moved to Near East, as I go out much lesser now. But until five years ago, you would never believe me anyway, and lesser even about guys who had all the status symbols way above some 200 bucks for Kauri only to burst with envy as the lads could care less.
Have you ever been among the rich that you are talking about? I have, and how would I be trying to impress with what couldn´t impress me. -
I find kauri attractive for the precise reasons listed in my post above. One of them being the same that makes me stand for little ages before vitrines of prehistorical artifacts. A completely other world than of your sparse imagination.
And as you claim to like books, a special selection about ancient kauri:
“Kauri Timber Days” by John Diamond & Bruce W Hayward. The Bush Press, 1990 “Kauri Past and Present” by Gordon Ell. The Bush Press, 1994 “The Figs and the Vines” by The Dalmatian Pioneer Trust, 1997 “Foote Prints Among the Kauri” by Bill Haigh. Bill Haigh, “The Kauri Museum – Matakohe” by Gordon Ell. The Bush Press, 2005 “The Kauri Gumdiggers – The Story of Kauri Gum” by Sir Alfred Reed. Bush Press, 2006 “Kauri Witness to a Nation” – by Joanna Orwin. Auckland University Press 2005
Better try looking at the world beyound your personal perspective.
It is quite ironic that there in california you end up with Kauri from NZ as a building material where we in Australia ended up with a lot of US douglas fir and californian redwood.
I've never been able to figure this out. Much of SF is built with mix of old growth Redwood and Doug Fir, but there is a lot of Gum wood trims work and Kauri structural work an trim work. Some "craftsman" style houses have a lot of Oak trim work.
SF has always been an odd city. To get lumber here from the North it was railroaded to a place called Tiburon across the bay and loaded onto barges which were taken to SF city an d Oakland. Tiburon still has the remains of the termination of the rail line preserved a a monument. It may have been cheap to ship it from New Zealand which had to export internationally to make money. There's also talk of ships that burned in earthquake being salvaged. I don't know the full story.
What really concerns me if we will get a tsunami of Maori warriors pulling up in huge canoes not so politely asking for their forest back.
And suppose that todays Kauri won´t shimmer in such ways like with the ancient, right? Do you have pictures for us to look at, please?
Those guitars were built before the advent of digital cameras for the common folk like me so the only pictures I might have would be in Susan's old photo albums. I doesn't look any different from any of the photos you have seen of cypress blancas so a picture would be pretty much superfluous anyway. One thing I always admired about Damar Minyak was the sparkle in the grain but the stuff I used had no curls at all.
Stephen, I am quite familiar with sweet gum wood and Damar Minyak (Mauri) is not Eucalytus whether it resembles it in texture and color or not. Damar Minyak is a conifer and in my opinion exhibits many of the characteristics of mediterranean cypress. I wouldn't consider sweet gum a tonewood.
John, Sweetgum is a liquidamber, Steven is talking here about eucalptus gum trees, most of which I would not touch as tonewood either. But then the Kauri also produces a very sought after gum.
Three different trees and the variety within eucalypts is huge
So Gum tree is a pretty meaningless term for identifying wood
Damar Minyak is a conifer and in my opinion exhibits many of the characteristics of mediterranean cypress. I wouldn't consider sweet gum a tonewood.
John, I would not consider Gum tone wood either, but as a wood to restore the Kauri extant in SF buildings it works quite well. I did not suggest it as a tone wood. I suggested it works to restore Kauri. Often the Kauri and Gums are mixed together in SF woodwork.
And if you know some types of Eucalyptus that grow here in the Bay Area, they can have amber yellowish to creamy off white coloration cut on slab. With varnish they can really look a lot like a creamy Spanish Cypress. The Eucalyptus can be greenish in cast, but some do have a warm color. When you mill it and lightly stain is it looks like a really close match.
I suppose no one needs to believe me, but I worked as a carpenter for a long time and saw this stuff meself. I suppose I could go knock on doors a take pictures of work I did ten years ago.
This is the type of Eucalyptus we have here. This very tree is one of the largest from the oldest from one of the first and oldest groves of these trees in California. It is located in Big Sur at Molera State Beach. I know this tree well. I even know its Elvish name, which if I told you you would not understand.
Ha ha
This grove is where the Monarch Butterflies rest while on their flyway up and down the coast from Mexico. In November they fill the trees so full they branches groan and bow down with the weight of butterflies.
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Meh, Kauri is is just another kind of Gum tree. Granted it gets big and grows for up to 2000 years. But it's wood is a lot like various Eucalyptus
Just because you can substitute one timber for another and achieve a similar appearance does not make it the same. It's like saying spruce and maple are the same because they are both white
Wow, amazing! The guys has tools ( and friends with some)! I appreciate handwork, specially when it is supposed to consider woods individual sound properties. But I dig special tools too like in this shop. Must be great to have that convenience. Like when sawing out the heel. Why not, instead of rasping it all. ( To my experience it won´t really take that long to rasp such a quantity, but when about pro work / daily work I´d in case certainly prefer the power tools. - At least for the blank from, before final shaping.)
The braces look mighty bold, but I think this was the first time that I saw a steeler from inside anyway. These braces are shaped just perfectly even, as if meant for external use.
And the inlay ... acoustic guitar players are just allowed more kitsch ... I sure like the tight precision, and there is something to it. Adornment of a loved instrument. What irritates me however is the nacked soundhole. My eyes aren´t used to such and just wished there was at least prior to the inlay inserted a rim.
I really love seeing such perfect working environment, and the result of it. However, where would with such a predefined production routine be the individual response to the woods properties ( varying masses according to density / resonation )? Will it allow for optimal construction?
Christian has a different sense of aesthetic to me but I posted that link to show you the timbers. Using Kauri and paua shell is considered quite patriotic in NZ
Meh, Kauri is is just another kind of Gum tree. Granted it gets big and grows for up to 2000 years. But it's wood is a lot like various Eucalyptus
Just because you can substitute one timber for another and achieve a similar appearance does not make it the same. It's like saying spruce and maple are the same because they are both white
Yes, yes Jeff, but the point is if I act like a know it all assshole, you'll get the commission because by contrast you will look stellar. That is how half the other guitar makers here get business. I act out like a jerk and alienate customers who then go to John, Andy etc.
See there is a special hell in Dante's Inferno they never tell you about until you make guitars for a long time. It's called in Italian 'Il Inferno di Liutai' The Luthiers Hell. It's right between the third and forth levels, AKA as Tire Kickers Hell.