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RE: Paco in Edinburgh
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JBASHORUN
Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005
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RE: Paco in Edinburgh (in reply to hubby)
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I went to see Paco's show in London recently, and it seems he played the exact same set, including Entre Dos Aguas as an encore (which he kept the crowd waiting for ages for), and had his daughter on stage clapping for the last song. I wasn't overwhelmed by his performance and he certainly looked very tired. But to be fair, he did at one point interact with the audience and say "Thank you London, It is always a pleasure" in English. Whether he actually meant that, I'm not sure. Obviously the crowd lapped it up. To be honest though I was just thankful to even get to see Paco play here, as he doesn't visit that often. Guajiras De Lucia would have been nice, but he obviously decided against it. He did play a re-working of Solo Quiero Caminar though (minus pepe). The Nunez concert in London was excellent, if you like jazzy Flamenco. But it is probably easier for Gerardo, as he is young and actually IN his prime, whereas Paco is fairly old and coming toward the end of his career. James PS: Didn't like Paco's bass player either- completely messed up his solo.
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Date Oct. 23 2005 22:37:59
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Romanza
Posts: 296
Joined: Oct. 24 2005
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RE: Paco in Edinburgh (in reply to hubby)
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I also saw Paco play in London the night before Edinburgh - for me the magic was definitely there. Of course, as has been noted, part of it is just seeing the man himself. I wasn't expecting to hear any of his old stuff, so I did go into raptures over Entre dos Aguas - the excitement of hearing something live that you've listened to over and over just can't be denied. I'd only listened to Cositas Beunas a couple of times before the concert, so that style of flamenco with the strong vocal emphasis as opposed to solo guitar was pretty new to me - but I did find it extremely powerful, so surprising how as soon as you've settled into a rhythm, it then changes with just a skip of a beat. To me, it was passionate and heartfelt, and each member of the band seemed to enjoy it. There were a couple of blips with the speakers, but other than that.. Yes £40 was expensive but worth it, in my opinion.
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Date Oct. 24 2005 13:15:27
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Ricardo
Posts: 14861
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Paco in Edinburgh (in reply to hubby)
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I agree with Ron about Nunez, great performer even though he is modern. But what we each get from a performance is very personal. If you get bored or distracted, you miss things in the music. Everytime I have ever seen Nunez (that is ALOT), he delivers 100%. One concert I saw last year was outstanding. But I have argued with people who feel Nunez is a cold player who diplays his technique and nothing more, even who saw the same performance has me! Too bad for them, but everyone looks for different things in a concert, or goes with preconcieved notions. But in regards to Paco, I don't know what you guys are going on and on about. I saw Paco perform in Feb 2004, many times before that, but this was his BEST I have ever seen. I have the DVD from Germany in May 2004, same music, but he made mistakes all over, not very inspired etc, so I think it really does have more to do with the way Paco plays than the music itself. I think Paco is getting burnt that is all. I mean, there is no jazz band in his Rondena, Minera, Fandangos, bulerias,Alegrias...right? So why were you not moved by those solo pieces Ron? Did you honestly expect him to play Celosa? So if he had an off night, is it fair to say the man will never play good again? I have collected lot's of bootleg concerts of Paco, and I can say when Paco is not in the mood, it is not good, but when he is on fire, it is not to be missed. Regardless of the date (60's-05). I am too lazy to go through and pull all quotes, but in response to this crap: "paco peeked creatively in the 70's/ no one up loads from Luzia or Cositas.../ Paco not good at jazz compared to the younger guys/ etc. Look, all this reveals is the tastes of the people making the statements. Paco's peak was in the 70's? Maybe his TECHNIQUE, but creativity? Come on guys. Just because you don't like the stuff since Fuente was recorded, does not mean that is the best he had to offer and went down hill ever since. Fanasia was brilliant, no doubt. But Duende was way more advanced musically. The falsetas in Punta del Faro were way ahead. The tremolo from Doblan companas, I am SURE he played in his last concert, maybe folks were sleeping. Ok, then came Fuente, which musically was not any different or advanced from Duende, same style just new falsetas. Everyone goes bonkers for this one because it is "pure" guitar, no orchestras or whatever. For me, this material and Duende could all be on the same disc. But Almoraima was a lot different, extremely creative and more advanced musically. But the biggest leap IMO was to Solo Quiero Caminar. He started useing dynamics, and his "group", so starting here, the "purists" can't handle it anymore. But this was the BEGGINNING of the modern FLAMENCO guitar stuff. Paco still plays in a similar style to this record. Siroco was more of this style, but no band, just guitar. So again the "purists" can enjoy this more. Whenever you get into something, that time period sticks with you. For me, Paco's "peak" was in 1991 when he played Nino Curro, La barrossa, and the bulerias "Soniquete" from Zyrab. For ME that is the creative peak. But that is about the time I first heard him and started buying his albums. Luzia is an extentsion of this style, which I welcomed whole heartedly. But he did have a couple of things that moved forward, like the Rondena, Solea, Siguiriyas, very different, more modern. I don't like it as much, but I recognize it as creative and advancing foward. Just because I don't like it as much as Nino curro or whatever, does not mean it is not music evolving in a forward direction. So when Cositas came out I expected more of the same like Luzia, but was surprised by what I heard. I think that opening bulerias is really different for Paco, different phrasing style and rhythmic expression. Very fresh and insteresting, great playing. I listen to Fantasia all the time, but even more I listen to a few tracks on Cositas. Live he does a medly of the bulerias from Cositas, and for the sake of the singers tone, he altered it a bit. It loses something live IMO because of this, but that is the way it goes. I already noticed how he is changing the music from Cositas in his live show. But if you go to Paco's show expecting or hoping for "Guajiras de Lucia" or "Celosa", well, I don't know what to say to that... Paco's work expands not just a long time period, but very different stylistic periods. In his concert, it is impossible for him to please EVERY fan. So all I would ask is that he plays whatever he wants, and with feeling, because I already have the cds and videos from old. Flamenco is not supposed to be classical pieces, always the same. Ricardo
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Date Oct. 25 2005 17:05:51
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Mark2
Posts: 1877
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
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RE: Paco in Edinburgh (in reply to hubby)
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It's all personal taste and opinion. For me, Fuente IS modern flamenco! The inversions, the stretches at the end of the tarrantas, the swing in the tango, and CEPA! Falsetas starting on 10, the insane inversions and bars. The wicked triplet picados. These elements created a sound that was modern to me. And Almoraima had so many things that had never been on a flamenco guitar record, I'd certainly call it modern. The improv on the end of the solea, the choro in the cantinas, the sevillanas with different tunings. But if you think Caminar was the start because he has a group, well, ok. Who can even agree on what the elements of "modern" are anyway!? For me it has nothing to do with other instruments, it has to do with what's played on the guitar. For example, Sabicas recorded with jazz guitarist Joe Beck. Funny, I think Paco's technique did improve after Fuente, but for me THAT was his creative peak. Why? The compositions. The tarrantas, the bulerias, the tangos, to me, are all time classics, among the best examples of solos in those forms. BTW, I still really enjoy Siroco, Luzia, and Cositas, but I've got my favs like everyone else. I've seen exactly two Paco concerts -one maybe ten years ago and one last year. I liked last year better. Less group, more Paco. He was on fire in his bulerias.
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Date Oct. 25 2005 17:45:21
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XXX
Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
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RE: Paco in Edinburgh (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo But if you go to Paco's show expecting or hoping for "Guajiras de Lucia" or "Celosa", well, I don't know what to say to that... That would be so great, how can you say that?! Nino Curro, Barrosa, Guajiaras, Almoraima, Recuerdo a Patino, Chiquito... How could i not want to see the music that i love so much live? Paco knows that of course, but these are problems which every musican has, because the audience (understandebly) want to hear the songs they like. Ok maybe some people are also happy if he plays anything, but most people would be more happier if he plays the known songs.
_____________________________
Фламенко
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Date Oct. 25 2005 17:49:51
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JBASHORUN
Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005
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RE: Paco in Edinburgh (in reply to XXX)
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quote:
most people would be more happier if he plays the known songs. Known to who? I think many of the people at the Paco concert I went to were not "hardcore" Flamenco fans, and were happy with Paco's selection of songs. You can't please everyone, and according to some people, "Entre Dos Aguas" IS Paco's most famous song- which he did play. Personally, I wanted to hear "Punta Umbria", "Guajiras De Lucia" and "Rio Ancho" (yeah, I know, Rio Ancho is just a rumba!). He didn't play any of them, but I still don't regret going. I thought Nunez' choice of songs was perfect, but then he has only got 2 or 3 albums to choose from, whereas Paco has about 30.
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Date Oct. 25 2005 18:27:33
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Ricardo
Posts: 14861
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Paco in Edinburgh (in reply to hubby)
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quote:
CEPA! Falsetas starting on 10, the insane inversions and bars. The wicked triplet picados. What about El Tempul, Plazuela, and Punta del Faro? Similar things going on musically, contra tiempos etc. He did triplet picados back then. Even Impetu has falsetas starting on 10 etc...Cepa is great no doubt, but stylistically I don't see it as VERY different or better, more advanced than the two records before. Really compare granaina here to the one on Fantasia. Ever notice the minera on Fantasia has the same falseta as in Barrio la Vina? The music here was certainly evolving, but not so much that the falsetas could not replace each other live. quote:
The improv on the end of the solea, the choro in the cantinas, the sevillanas with different tunings. The idea to improvise would have been interesting in solea, but he plays the same "improv" on Castro Marin. Those are more like falsetas of solea por bulerias, just played over a repeating chord progression. Yeah, a unique idea. Tiritirtran tran, I don't think of as modern flamenco, chorus or not. The sevillanas is an idea of Sabicas where he played in different tonalities (stop tape to change key) with overdubbed guitars. The only tuning difference was Rondena. The most modern idea for me was the opening bulerias where he had oud, drums and bass, but still, his guitar style was a little different too. Listen to the rasgueado remates, the off beat triplet everytime. But still the dynamics and such, the playing, is not far off from Fuente. I consider his creativity to have gone up from Fuente though. quote:
But if you think Caminar was the start because he has a group, well, ok. Who can even agree on what the elements of "modern" are anyway!? For me it has nothing to do with other instruments, it has to do with what's played on the guitar. Well that is just it, it is not ME claiming this because of the band, but because of his playing style. His dynamics and phrasing, rhythmic ideas, rasgueados, etc. Aficionados over look this BECAUSE of his band. His playing today is very different than Fuente and Almoraima, but not really much different than Caminar. (IMO- if I must type it again). So if you hate stuff from Caminar to present, why torchure yourself by going to his concert? Ricardo
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Date Oct. 25 2005 18:41:54
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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RE: Paco in Edinburgh (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
I mean, there is no jazz band in his Rondena, Minera, Fandangos, bulerias,Alegrias...right? Not at this concert Ricardo.. He started with a solo Rondeñas...it was OK, but I was a bit surprised at the sound. Pretty sloppy thumb work for someone like Paco! (unlike Gerardo who started with the same, with crystal-clear playing and built up the mood into some extreme guitar playing!). The other solo was (I think) a Mineras, but it was played in the same key and basically sounded like a repeat of the Rondeñas. The rest was basically done with the Jazz Band and the girls except for a few moments when they had to be quiet, so Paco could play a few subdued and muffled jazzy moments himself. Paco was and still is a hero of mine, but as time catches up on me and I find myself now, at well over 50, I have less and less time for hero worship like I did when I was in my 20's...and basically just go with the performance itself now. That's why the Gerardo concert will stick with me. cheers Ron
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Date Oct. 25 2005 21:48:49
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Ricardo
Posts: 14861
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Paco in Edinburgh (in reply to hubby)
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quote:
Granted , Punta had a lot of the same technique as Cepa-I just like the music from Cepa more, and maybe that's why that record hit me harder. And I think Cepa steps up the energy level a lot. Yep, exactly what I was trying to point out, you like it more, it makes a difference, and also, if it is simply played with the extra energy or whatever, it grabs you more, if you are ready to recieve! Not all my comments about Paco's group and recordings are directed towards you Mark2, more to the general tone of comments in this thread, and aficionados' views in general. quote:
The other solo was (I think) a Mineras, but it was played in the same key and basically sounded like a repeat of the Rondeñas. Well Ron ol buddy, I am pretty familiar with these pieces and with all due respect, I think a lot of beautiful things went over your head. And I am sure he played bulerias and alegrias with just cajon and palmas, and morphed the minera into the Fandangos "Montino", etc. I think I am just more of a complete Paco FREAK than you! Anyway, sorry he did not live up to your expectations amigo. Glad Gerardo blew you away! Ricardo
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Date Oct. 26 2005 20:23:09
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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RE: Paco in Edinburgh (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
And I am sure he played bulerias and alegrias with just cajon and palmas He did? I don't understand how you know these things?.... Were you at the concert in Edinburgh? Ricardo...I think secretly you are an International spy, pretending you were out on the West Coast of the USA, when in fact you sent your double there to cover for you, so that you could smuggle yourself into Scotland in an attempt to reach Sir Sean himself, to thwart the excesses of Bush/Blair administration, which you now know is in fact a long-term plan and evil scheme of S*M*E*R*S*H..... Otherwise, how would you have known what Paco played on that night? "Marlow, he said...the name's Marlow..", taking a cigarette from an engraved gold cigarette case, tapping it twice before lighting it.... The Countess, taken aback by his his immediate impudence and lack of deference, reacted in a way that was both angry but captivating... The croupier said "Last bets now please, the wheel is spinning, last bets now..." Marlow, loosening the collar around his neck in his resplendant Saville Row tuxedo and sipping an iced Martini, simply said " Everything on 12....I'm sure this beautiful lady will bring me luck...." LOL! (Bit of an "in joke" there...Those of you who don't understand that....Richard and I have known each other a while from the old FT Forum.. ) cheers Ron
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Date Oct. 26 2005 21:23:24
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