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OK, I know Paco, Gerardo, Tomatito, Manolo Sanlucar etc. all make up a big part of the modern guitar vocabulary, but it seems since the Release of Diego's album that on many albums i hear especially regarding Solea and Bulerias I hear reflection of Diego's unique style in these toques for instance the newest from Nino Josele, Juan Carlos Romero and Dani de Moron. What's yours guy's view on this?
Posts: 15725
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Is Diego Del Morao the most infl... (in reply to tburke)
quote:
ORIGINAL: tburke
OK, I know Paco, Gerardo, Tomatito, Manolo Sanlucar etc. all make up a big part of the modern guitar vocabulary, but it seems since the Release of Diego's album that on many albums i hear especially regarding Solea and Bulerias I hear reflection of Diego's unique style in these toques for instance the newest from Nino Josele, Juan Carlos Romero and Dani de Moron. What's yours guy's view on this?
There will always be trends...and they dont' always point to one individual. Many times the mix of influences results it nearly identical final products. I can't tell you how many times I came up with something of my own that was influenced by Paco, Tomatito, vicente etc....then I hear say Chicuelo play almost the EXACT same thing I made up!
RE: Is Diego Del Morao the most infl... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
quote:
ORIGINAL: tburke
OK, I know Paco, Gerardo, Tomatito, Manolo Sanlucar etc. all make up a big part of the modern guitar vocabulary, but it seems since the Release of Diego's album that on many albums i hear especially regarding Solea and Bulerias I hear reflection of Diego's unique style in these toques for instance the newest from Nino Josele, Juan Carlos Romero and Dani de Moron. What's yours guy's view on this?
There will always be trends...and they dont' always point to one individual. Many times the mix of influences results it nearly identical final products. I can't tell you how many times I came up with something of my own that was influenced by Paco, Tomatito, vicente etc....then I hear say Chicuelo play almost the EXACT same thing I made up!
Yea that's a good point maybe should be more specific and say the influence of Diego's legato technique and weird rhythmic way he does it, seems to be cropping up in a lot of buleria and especially Solea
RE: Is Diego Del Morao the most infl... (in reply to tburke)
I've got Diego's, Paquete's and Dani's albums on my phone and when I'm not looking I can't even tell them apart sometimes. I just think it's more a general development that this kind of understated, heavily syncopated playing utilizing non-standard keys or tunings is getting more and more traction. Though when I hear one of Diego's endlessly meandering syncopated ligado motifs I just can't help but roll my eyes at times. Unpopular opinion, I know.
I can't click with it personally (maybe that will come at some point in the future), but I think these guys are the most cutting-edge guitarists there are right now, in terms of technique and what they're trying to do with their compositions.
Posts: 2008
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: Is Diego Del Morao the most infl... (in reply to tburke)
Well, I've listened to his cd about fifty times in the last month or two, and I have a guitar sitting in my living room tuned to the tuning of Pago de la Serrana so yeah, I'm loving the stuff he plays.
As far as his influence in professional flamenco circles, I don't know.
RE: Is Diego Del Morao the most infl... (in reply to tburke)
quote:
myrddin
honestly..I doubt that he influences anybody. He is not flamenco IMO. And weird. Really good but too weird. The compositions I saw are not about feelings..they are about technique..but a limited rangeof techniques. Doing as many arpegios and ligados as possible connected with pretty ugly compas shrumming where..... really,.. not even one stroke has a meaning. I don´t get his music at all..but its fun to watch...for 5min. Well,..maybe it´s just me. Personal taste problem though. And I think Diego plays a role..but not a superior role. Paquetes last album is significant. And also Dani de morons and Anton Jimenez work as well as Antonio Rey. Not to mention the oldies like Tomatito and nowadays also Nino Josele who goes more Jazzy.
RE: Is Diego Del Morao the most infl... (in reply to Doitsujin)
I hear what you're saying about myrddin doitsujin. I personally like his style, but yes it gets tiresome after a few pieces. It's not puro, but flamenco describes it more than any other word. I think of him as 'baroque flamenco'. On a similar note - I'm not sure how flamenco Dani de Moron would sound to someone from the '50s.
You can't say that he didn't influence ANYBODY, because bulerias2005 wrote a piece dedicated to and inspired by Myrddin.
So there.
Also - Paco de Lucia is amazing! Listening to him right now!
RE: Is Diego Del Morao the most infl... (in reply to tburke)
I'm totally unmoved by the albums that have been released in the past year or so, particularly Dani's CD. The playing is technically incredible and very adventurous, but compositionally it's very...meandering, for lack of a better word. I don't know. I realize that it's incredibly complex music, and I love that as much as the next guy, but I personally can see a clear line between "complex yet beautiful" and "complex for the sake of complexity". An example of the former is Antonio Rey's first CD. Ground-breaking, compositionally dense, harmonically interesting, and melodic. Truly incredible work. Nunez's new CD, technique limitations aside, was also in the same vein (although less so compared to the younger guys). I'm hoping that this compositional noodling is just a trend that will pass soon. I know that this is probably not a very popular opinion, but just my two cents. :)
P.S. Thanks for the shout-out chester. :) I have definitely been influenced by Myrddin's playing, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. Some may actually argue that his style is meandering, but I don't think that's a very fair assessment since he borrows a lot from baroque/renaissance music, which is inherently melodically complex.
RE: Is Diego Del Morao the most infl... (in reply to Bulerias2005)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bulerias2005
I'm totally unmoved by the albums that have been released in the past year or so, particularly Dani's CD. The playing is technically incredible and very adventurous, but compositionally it's very...meandering, for lack of a better word. I don't know. I realize that it's incredibly complex music, and I love that as much as the next guy, but I personally can see a clear line between "complex yet beautiful" and "complex for the sake of complexity". An example of the former is Antonio Rey's first CD. Ground-breaking, compositionally dense, harmonically interesting, and melodic. Truly incredible work. Nunez's new CD, technique limitations aside, was also in the same vein (although less so compared to the younger guys). I'm hoping that this compositional noodling is just a trend that will pass soon. I know that this is probably not a very popular opinion, but just my two cents. :)
P.S. Thanks for the shout-out chester. :) I have definitely been influenced by Myrddin's playing, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. Some may actually argue that his style is meandering, but I don't think that's a very fair assessment since he borrows a lot from baroque/renaissance music, which is inherently melodically complex.
Fully agreed. I hope that these guys are just testing their limits at this point and will mature compositionally on the albums that follow.
RE: Is Diego Del Morao the most infl... (in reply to Munin)
As far as accompanying el cante, the most influential are Diego del Gastor, Melchor y Moraito.
I heard Diego de Morao trying to accompany Mercé por soleá and he was mal. José had to pisar on the guitarra to sing because Diego never give him a llamada.
RE: Is Diego Del Morao the most infl... (in reply to kudo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: kudo
quote:
I hope that these guys are just testing their limits at this point and will mature compositionally on the albums that follow.
just because you dont click with it, doesnt mean their compositions are immature and that they are testing their limits. lets see what your limits are and your mature compositions...if you can, that is
Well, that's the thing. Personally speaking -- having explored Russian, Brazilian, Spanish, French, jazz and who knows what other type of music -- I can usually identify compositional influences correctly. Listening to these modern cats, it is pretty obvious that they grew up on Paco de Lucia and developed their own music in a very flamenco-centric bubble. The hallmark of "modern flamenco" is the amalgamation of traditional flamenco and other genres (primarily jazz, classical, and Brazilian music). This new wave of flamenco is obviously influenced by their immediate predecessors such as Paco de Lucia, Gerardo Nunez, Vicente Amigo, Tomatito, etc, but it is obvious that these younger guys also have a very fleeting and superficial knowledge of the aforementioned non-flamenco genres, **unlike** their predecessors. This leads to a very homogeneous, self-contained, and ultimately compositionally-meandering style, which is what I believe Munin was alluding to. And I agree 100%. I can't tell these guys apart in terms of their compositions.
With a guy like Myrddin, I immediately identified that his influences were baroque/classical/renaissance music. So it was hardly a surprise to me when I saw all of his Bach videos on YouTube. He has studied such composers in an in-depth manner, and it is reflected in his compositions. This is what these new guys lack, in my opinion.
RE: Is Diego Del Morao the most infl... (in reply to Doitsujin)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Doitsujin
quote:
myrddin
honestly..I doubt that he influences anybody. He is not flamenco IMO. And weird. Really good but too weird. The compositions I saw are not about feelings..they are about technique..but a limited rangeof techniques. Doing as many arpegios and ligados as possible connected with pretty ugly compas shrumming where..... really,.. not even one stroke has a meaning. I don´t get his music at all..but its fun to watch...for 5min. Well,..maybe it´s just me. Personal taste problem though. And I think Diego plays a role..but not a superior role. Paquetes last album is significant. And also Dani de morons and Anton Jimenez work as well as Antonio Rey. Not to mention the oldies like Tomatito and nowadays also Nino Josele who goes more Jazzy.
try this video
i think its at least a little bit more classically buleria like than some of his compositions although he does insert what you don't like in some of it
Posts: 15725
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Is Diego Del Morao the most infl... (in reply to Morante)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Morante
As far as accompanying el cante, the most influential are Diego del Gastor, Melchor y Moraito.
I heard Diego de Morao trying to accompany Mercé por soleá and he was mal. José had to pisar on the guitarra to sing because Diego never give him a llamada.
I would have said Niño Ricardo, yes Marchena, and Paco Cepero....and even Paco de Lucia (thanks to his large body of work with Camaron and others) as more influencial as far as copy cats of today and others over the years. Diego el Gastor seems to only have influenced the Moron school of players. Moraito tends to play more like PDL than his Uncle for example...but its a generalization and I am talking about how to do compas for the singers. In terms of falsetas yes many people I saw in spain doing note for note Moraito, but also lots of Tomatito and Paco very influential. And of course in Jerez Moraito has become a blue print standard for toque all around.