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Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to pink

I like the simulation of worn edges. It makes the visuals more interesting than a brand new looking instrument.

However, to my eyes the coming through of bright mint woods like pine and maple through a darker varnish looks a bit cheap somehow in the same time.

My suggestion would be: When simulating wear to also give it the appearance of aged / some patina in the same time.
I would rub the blank spots with dirt dust. ( And maybe seal it with a thin layer of transparent finish.)

Having said that ... Maybe the darkening through oxidation will do. Only that it may take some years and exposure to daylight.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 31 2014 9:41:04
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to krichards

quote:

If you are not playing the guitar these days, maybe you could play flamenco violin?


Have you heard anything interesting flamenco with violin?
Its pretty modern to arrange flamenco with strings these days. I see it often in the telly. You have these classical string players sitting down with their score looking serious and playing with a big classical vibrato. IMHO, it sucks major and is just another bad taste add on that totally kills what i think flamenco is.
Maybe fiddle could be incorporated but i find it to be a very difficlut task, so I´ll prefer staying away from it. If i was to do some flamenco again, I would start singing.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 31 2014 10:15:30
 
Joan Maher

 

Posts: 179
Joined: Dec. 3 2013
 

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to Anders Eliasson

http://youtu.be/46EXY4oP1Do

I prefer a fiddle in this kind of folk music..

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Joan Josep Maher
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 31 2014 10:17:52
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to Ruphus

Ruphus, It doesnt surprise me what you write. You always write something like that. The dirt look will come by itself when all the imperfections start getting filled with dirt and rosin. The whole patina - no patina discussion is very old and you can find tons of internet discussions about the theme. But be carefull it is one of those subjects that often end up having a religious character.
My look at all this is different. I did what I did because I like it and thats it. Next one might me different. At least there´s a lot more space for having fun with the finishing when you build stringed instruments than when you build Spanish guitars. Its very close minded. one color and total shine.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 31 2014 10:20:49
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to Ruphus

I was trying to be constructive, not picky.

But I can understand your irk. It can be teasing to receive comments that skip considerations already made. My fault.

Cheers, like "always". |OD

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 31 2014 10:29:44
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to Ruphus

Its ok Ruphus. Its just that sometimes you are so focussed on esthetical issues that I wonder why. Yo also make impossible suggestions based on lack of knowledge. Not long ago, I posted pictures of a steelstring guitar and you wrote that you would have preferred that the neck didnt have a heel cap and that you prefered a heel cap resumed of the back. I didnt write anything back then, but traditional steelstring gitars are constructed very differently from spanish guitars and the neck is finished with a heel cap before being glued or bolted on the body.
Anyways, esthetics are important. But only for the eye and music is made for the ears. And in the end, a musical instrument is only a tool made for making sound (noise in some peoples ears)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 31 2014 12:43:34
 
krichards

Posts: 597
Joined: Jan. 14 2007
From: York, England

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to Anders Eliasson

quote:

Have you heard anything interesting flamenco with violin?


Well maybe 'interesting'. But nothing that I liked very much. I'm very traditional when it comes to flamenco; cante with guitar, baile, and palmas or perhaps cajon if I'm feeling adventurous.

The violin is great for any kind of Celtic music and many types of folk music I think.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 31 2014 13:41:25
 
tijeretamiel

 

Posts: 438
Joined: Jan. 6 2012
 

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to Anders Eliasson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson
I posted pictures of a steelstring guitar... but traditional steelstring gitars are constructed very differently from spanish guitars and the neck is finished with a heel cap before being glued or bolted on the body.
Anyways, esthetics are important. But only for the eye and music is made for the ears. And in the end, a musical instrument is only a tool made for making sound (noise in some peoples ears)


I'm in agreement about musical instruments being tools, instruments are there to be played! Aside from bagpipes...

How is the steel string guitar now Anders? When it come to European Spruce (well any Spruce really), I've found for acoustic guitars they take quite a long time to 'ripen' in terms of sound, more so than nylon strung guitars (maybe down to the bracing) to my ears anyway.

A bit of a random question but has anyone ever built a flamenco guitar with a Sitka Spruce top? Even in a lot of acoustic guitar circles it's quite a unfashionable choice, but for acoustic guitars anyway it's my favourite variant of spruce...

(sorry for the rambling)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 31 2014 14:02:44
 
Wayne Brown

 

Posts: 124
Joined: Oct. 22 2012
From: Huntersville, North Carolina, USA

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to Anders Eliasson

Great looking fiddle, Anders!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 31 2014 14:04:19
 
Flamingrae

 

Posts: 218
Joined: May 19 2009
 

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to krichards

quote:

I'm very traditional when it comes to flamenco; cante with guitar, baile, and palmas


Yeh, me too and whilst it is great that people experiment, I'm not sure violin works with flamenco. With Tango, yes! with celtic and a load of other eastern european gypsy music, yes. I think the raw sound of fiddle is too much for flamenco as the singing usually provides the "guts" Now, I do think that the mellower sound of a viola could work depending upon the style used. Similar register to that of a guitar.......
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 31 2014 14:25:00
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to Anders Eliasson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

Anyways, esthetics are important. But only for the eye and music is made for the ears. And in the end, a musical instrument is only a tool made for making sound (noise in some peoples ears)


Of course.

I was an aesthete before I could even know why ( so floored by the wonderful calfs of our nurses in kindergarden, kid you not), and appreciate fine detail with all of senses.
Yet, priorities remain like you just mentioned.

There are different kinds of aesthetics that I enjoy each individually. From rat looks, over traditionally conform or tone sur tone to bling style. And then there is that attraction that can occure with the speciality of a material ( like the one with ancient woods).

Still, all second in row with performance. No question.
With my current favorite being a beaten up warhorse the better looking guitars stay in their cases, hidden from view anyway / with their visual clues now of little value.

Inserted / bolted necks despite the gap can resume the back still, can´t they. ( No deal breaker. Only if a guitar was built for me anyway I wouldn´t mind that item.)

My take is: If it is a fine guitar, it would be only complementary if visually thrilling as well, but no must.

Ruphus


PS:
The almost religious dispute about retro that you mention, I only experienced regarding architecture ( and from some motor vehicles and gadget designs).
Discussing with my architect brother in law who would disagree with my wish to see modern remakes of art nouveau or antique style with those solid walls, high sealings, windows, doors, plaster, etc.
He insisted on the basically alu & glass flash as modernity.

I think of retro / pseudo antique styling as fully legit, and for me coming in second as attraction after wooden structures.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 31 2014 14:40:08
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to tijeretamiel

quote:

How is the steel string guitar now Anders? When it come to European Spruce (well any Spruce really), I've found for acoustic guitars they take quite a long time to 'ripen' in terms of sound, more so than nylon strung guitars (maybe down to the bracing) to my ears anyway.

A bit of a random question but has anyone ever built a flamenco guitar with a Sitka Spruce top? Even in a lot of acoustic guitar circles it's quite a unfashionable choice, but for acoustic guitars anyway it's my favourite variant of spruce...


the steel string is doing really great, I dont play it much but it really sings.

I´ve made 2 flamencos with Sitka spruce and they both sounded VERY well. I have one, (number 4) with me. Its my swing around guitar and it looks like sh*t. Everyone loves that guitar and between the flamenco singers in the peñas of Huelva it was considered the best guitar I ever made (I dont agree, but its good)
I will make a 2A guitar with a master grade Sitka top within a few month.
Its also a very pretty piece of wood.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 31 2014 20:44:57
 
Flamingrae

 

Posts: 218
Joined: May 19 2009
 

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to tijeretamiel

quote:

A bit of a random question but has anyone ever built a flamenco guitar with a Sitka Spruce top?


Yup, my number 2 has a sitka top, rosewood back and sides - and it sings. Quite loud and still developing. I'm sure there may have been a debate a while back about using it for flamencos. I think the general consensus was yes, loud and darkened with time. Do it, it wont be bad.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 1 2014 14:26:57
 
estebanana

Posts: 8672
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to Ruphus

I like this rosette a lot, it's one of my "simple" ones, but it really has life.

Nice fiddle Anders, ah varnish type?

Sitka, yes. Good wood, many people have said it's not good for nylon, but that's not true at all. It might not fit everyones building style. I've used it two or three times with good results. The classical maker John Gilbert used it in at least a few dozen of this guitars.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 3 2014 9:09:51
 
Anders Eliasson

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RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to Ruphus

The varnish of the fiddle is oilvarnish (truoil) over a bit of shellack. I was adviced to do so by a dude that has made a lot more fiddle/violins than me and that had tried the more traditional varnishes on the market. I´m very happy with the result. But it dries slowly.
The whole violin varnish thing is a big religious myth.

Your rosette is a variation of what sometimes is called boquilla sevillana, which is just veneer circles. I can imagine it will look good on a natural finish or a slightly aged finish.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 4 2014 7:56:01
 
estebanana

Posts: 8672
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to Ruphus

Yeah, I've known for long time it's a Sevilla style to have a broken outside border with circles. I learned the concentric circles from Gene Clark, but several of the older players I know who went to Spain in the 50's 60's said that it was Sevilla style when I began doing it. Only I invented it without knowing that because I orginally took that exact broken border from a rosette on a 19th century oud.

The concentric rings are old as the hills, you see it on 100 year old guitars. I've never cared for intricate rosettes although I can do them, the problem with them is that the more intricate they are the less they read as good solid design. Super intricate rosettes begin to look like the trim and filigree on dollar bills or stamps. That os fine if you want to look at them with a magnifier an enjoy the skill of the engraver, but for guitars I think too much detail has diminishing returns.

___________

I've been working on my violin varnish, I hit on using varnish made by Joe Robson, he makes a pine balsam ground and a cooked resin linseed oil varnish. In the past I had used a spirit varnish, the one called "1704" made with shellac, elemy and sandrac, but I think the resin varnish with the balsam ground is much better.

This is the balsam ground with one layer of resin oil varnish on top- the second has two layers, in different light, still showing the ground on the side.

I never liked orange guitars- The orange finish on guitars is nothing close to good violin varnish, which it always seemed to me it is trying to emulate. I'm pretty happy with Robson's varnish, it is the best stuff I have seen, but it ain't cheap.





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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 4 2014 11:16:16
 
tijeretamiel

 

Posts: 438
Joined: Jan. 6 2012
 

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to Anders Eliasson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

the steel string is doing really great, I dont play it much but it really sings.

I´ve made 2 flamencos with Sitka spruce and they both sounded VERY well. I have one, (number 4) with me. Its my swing around guitar and it looks like sh*t. Everyone loves that guitar and between the flamenco singers in the peñas of Huelva it was considered the best guitar I ever made (I dont agree, but its good)
I will make a 2A guitar with a master grade Sitka top within a few month.
Its also a very pretty piece of wood.


Good to hear about the steel string. Do you have any inclination to make any more steel strung guitars? If you do make a 12 string! I really love them, a nightmare to play though!

Guitar no.4 sounds good. I have a lot of love for guitars that don't have much in favour for their looks but do for their sounds - guitars for playing! Maybe they think it's one of the better guitars you made as the sound developed - I imagine most of the guitars you have made, you've not managed to hear when they have been 'broken in'?

I look forward to seeing the build for your 2A with a mastergrade Sitka Soundboard. Out of curiosity, how do you grade soundboards? When it comes to Spruce tops anyway, I often think there's an obsession over 'perfect' visual appearances with the lines being uniformly close together, but I've played some amazing guitars where there has not been a uniform distance between the lines.

I really like Sitka as a soundboard for material for steel strings, and it's easily my favourite over the more often more revered but more expensive Adirondack, Englemann and European spruces, as Sitka to my ears sounds warmer. One thing about Sitka spruce soundboards, is they don't look that nice as they age but that's not a very important thing.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 4 2014 11:22:05
 
Andy Culpepper

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Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to Ruphus

It's a classical guitar but this one came out rather delicious I think...





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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 4 2014 23:24:48
 
Andy Culpepper

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RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to Ruphus

back



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 4 2014 23:26:13
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
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RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to tijeretamiel

quote:


Good to hear about the steel string. Do you have any inclination to make any more steel strung guitars? If you do make a 12 string! I really love them, a nightmare to play though!

Guitar no.4 sounds good. I have a lot of love for guitars that don't have much in favour for their looks but do for their sounds - guitars for playing! Maybe they think it's one of the better guitars you made as the sound developed - I imagine most of the guitars you have made, you've not managed to hear when they have been 'broken in'?

I look forward to seeing the build for your 2A with a mastergrade Sitka Soundboard. Out of curiosity, how do you grade soundboards? When it comes to Spruce tops anyway, I often think there's an obsession over 'perfect' visual appearances with the lines being uniformly close together, but I've played some amazing guitars where there has not been a uniform distance between the lines.

I really like Sitka as a soundboard for material for steel strings, and it's easily my favourite over the more often more revered but more expensive Adirondack, Englemann and European spruces, as Sitka to my ears sounds warmer. One thing about Sitka spruce soundboards, is they don't look that nice as they age but that's not a very important thing.


Time will show if i will make more steelstring guitars. Its all about time and energy and right now, besides building Spanish guitars, the violin is what I´m most interested in.
The number 4 is what Ricardo described a Gerundino guitar, a rasgueado and pulgar guitar. (I liked that description) That it does really well, but picado and especially arpeggios up the fingerboard is not its force.
I dont really grade soundboards and when i say mastergrade, its becase it was bought as a mastergrade. Soundboard grading is there in order to make money, so that one piece of very good soundboard is 20,-€ while another with some different characteristics but not better sounding costs 80,-€. When I choose wood for a 1A guitar, its sound first and then looks. Some of these picture perfect soundboards, all white, hardly any contrast can be to sloppy in their cross grain stiffness. Then its better with some contrast even though some think it looks wrong. The contrast is the hard and stiff part of the wood. To much wintergrain and it gets to heavy. Its all a compromise.
I wont continue to build with Sitka spruce for simple reason that I´m in Europe and I can get Euro spruce cheaper and its what most clients want.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 5 2014 14:49:13
 
tijeretamiel

 

Posts: 438
Joined: Jan. 6 2012
 

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to Anders Eliasson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

Time will show if i will make more steelstring guitars. Its all about time and energy and right now, besides building Spanish guitars, the violin is what I´m most interested in.
The number 4 is what Ricardo described a Gerundino guitar, a rasgueado and pulgar guitar. (I liked that description) That it does really well, but picado and especially arpeggios up the fingerboard is not its force.
I dont really grade soundboards and when i say mastergrade, its becase it was bought as a mastergrade. Soundboard grading is there in order to make money, so that one piece of very good soundboard is 20,-€ while another with some different characteristics but not better sounding costs 80,-€. When I choose wood for a 1A guitar, its sound first and then looks. Some of these picture perfect soundboards, all white, hardly any contrast can be to sloppy in their cross grain stiffness. Then its better with some contrast even though some think it looks wrong. The contrast is the hard and stiff part of the wood. To much wintergrain and it gets to heavy. Its all a compromise.
I wont continue to build with Sitka spruce for simple reason that I´m in Europe and I can get Euro spruce cheaper and its what most clients want.


Thanks for the reply Anders. That made a lot of sense.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 5 2014 15:20:48
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to Ruphus

3 guitars ready to be French Polished. From right to left:
#113, a 2A Blanca
#114, a 1A negra
#115, a 1A Blanca





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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2014 20:06:30
 
n85ae

 

Posts: 876
Joined: Sep. 7 2006
 

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to Ruphus

Yep if I could just convince my wife that I needed to spend some money for a
guitar ... I know where it would be going! :)

Nice guitars!

Jeff
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2014 20:52:36
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to Ruphus

comes a time.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 11 2014 7:59:17
 
gerundino63

Posts: 1711
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to Ruphus

As always Anders, they look very nice!
I know all your guitars plays the same as they look....

Also the 2a guitar roset I like a lot "symple" but very tasty.
I am sure they find soon a new owner.

All the best,
Peter.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 11 2014 8:57:02
 
El Polaco

Posts: 155
Joined: Sep. 29 2005
From: Singer Island - Florida

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to Andy Culpepper

New rosette with candy cane borders. My first real attempt at the diagonal stuff.
It's harder than I realized!



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Jorge

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 11 2014 14:52:19
 
Don Dionisio

 

Posts: 360
Joined: Feb. 16 2011
From: Durham, NC

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to El Polaco

Very nice-looks like a pastel drawing!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 11 2014 15:35:03
 
tijeretamiel

 

Posts: 438
Joined: Jan. 6 2012
 

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to Ruphus

Does the Negra in the middle have different frets?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 11 2014 15:57:05
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to gerundino63

quote:

Also the 2a guitar roset I like a lot "symple" but very tasty.


Yes, Peter, simple can be very good. Often the best. I like that rosette a lot myself. I will take a close up when its finished.

The frets are the same on all 3 guitars. What is happening on the photo is that the negra is standing with a slightly different angle, so it gets the refections from the window in another way

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 11 2014 19:25:42
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to Ruphus

So here´s that 2A rosette Padauk, cedar and ebony.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 3 2014 21:12:25
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