Foro Flamenco


Posts Since Last Visit | Advanced Search | Home | Register | Login

Today's Posts | Inbox | Profile | Our Rules | Contact Admin | Log Out



Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.

This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.

We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.

Update cookies preferences




Another "Artist Model" Adam Del Monte Model   You are logged in as Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >>Discussions >>General >> Page: [1] 2    >   >>
Login
Message<< Newer Topic  Older Topic >>
 
HolyEvil

Posts: 1240
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia

Another "Artist Model" Ada... 

After Paco, Tomatito, Jeronimo Maya now it's Adam Del Monte

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 4 2012 8:46:21
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: Another "Artist Model"... (in reply to HolyEvil

Rafael Cortes has also his sig guitar made by Sanchis Lopez brothers.

_____________________________

Фламенко
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 4 2012 12:23:22
 
Don Dionisio

 

Posts: 360
Joined: Feb. 16 2011
From: Durham, NC

RE: Another "Artist Model"... (in reply to HolyEvil

Thanks for sharing this information. For me, he articulated
very well his ideas and what he expects from a great flamenco guitar.
His examples of string tension, effortless rasgueos, balance
and a punchy, masculine tone were great. I'd would like to try
one of these guitars!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 4 2012 12:25:19
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Another "Artist Model"... (in reply to HolyEvil

Woohoo orgullo Los Angeles! Candelas is great, I've always just been to poor to buy one, as well I love Adams playing, live more so then his CD's. Im gunna try to see if they have one ready to play and I'll go down there this weekend to check it out. Thomas seems to be a cool dude about stuff like that.

_____________________________

\m/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 4 2012 12:59:44
 
britguy

Posts: 712
Joined: Dec. 26 2010
From: Ontario, Canada

RE: Another "Artist Model"... (in reply to Leñador

quote:

I've always just been to poor to buy one,


Just curious.

How much does he charge for his guitars? And what is he asking for these "signature" models.

_____________________________

Fruit farmer, Ontario, Canada
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 4 2012 13:49:38
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Another "Artist Model"... (in reply to HolyEvil

Last time I checked I believe it was around 4K for the blanca I wanted. Not ridiculous just more then I could spend at the time. I don't know what he's asking for these ones, he doesn't put prices on his website.

As a side note, candelas is very popular among the mariachis, rancheras, and norteno musicians here in LA. I actually heard of them from a bajo sexto player I worked with a while back. He makes nearly anything with pluckable strings. Helps that he's in east LA.

_____________________________

\m/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 4 2012 14:11:53
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Another "Artist Model"... (in reply to HolyEvil

So just curious:

How do you guys think this work?

1* Artist need a guitar and ask luthier to make one. Luthier makes it cheaper or free and uses the name of artist.

2* Luthier and artist get together and make a deal. Luthier uses the name, Artist gets a guitar and both expect to earn some money.

3* something else

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 4 2012 15:18:43
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Another "Artist Model"... (in reply to HolyEvil

My guess would be that it's not formulaic. If it's a big name player and a relatively unknown luthier, the luthier is shelling out big bucks I'm sure. In this case it's interesting I'm willing to bet it began just started as a conversation in passing, I saw them both at a Vicente Amigo concert a few months ago. At the "Farruco's show" tonight he's giving 1/2 hour private (by appointment) demo's with it before the show at the venue so I get the feeling maybe he gets a cut of each instrument sold if he's that proactive about it's promotion......nobody does anything that's not somehow beneficial for themselves. (Which is fine not greedy!)

_____________________________

\m/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 4 2012 15:39:08
 
orsonw

Posts: 2018
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Another "Artist Model"... (in reply to Anders Eliasson

quote:

3* something else




The guitarist loves playing flamenco guitars.
The luthier loves building flamenco guitars.
They think it would be great to collaborate, share their perspectives and build a great flamenco guitar. They just love flamenco guitars!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 4 2012 15:53:57
 
Escribano

Posts: 6440
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Another "Artist Model"... (in reply to Anders Eliasson

quote:

2* Luthier and artist get together and make a deal. Luthier uses the name, Artist gets a guitar and both expect to earn some money.


_____________________________

Foro Flamenco founder and Admin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 4 2012 17:33:10
 
rogeliocan

Posts: 811
Joined: Nov. 23 2009
From: Canada

RE: Another "Artist Model"... (in reply to HolyEvil

Funny he spends time talking about tension because as he brought it up saying 'extensive detail getting the tension right' I was wondering what he was talking about.... .as if he fell from the moon, well maybe not.

Luthiers may answer this. My first thoughts after hearing this were that if you tie a string to an A 440 between a distance that is constant, for the same strings, how can tension change? So with fixed length and same string, what is there that can be adjusted to modify the tension? saddle height? And by 'modify' I imagine we can only increase or decrease tension, nothing else?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 4 2012 18:42:13
 
rogeliocan

Posts: 811
Joined: Nov. 23 2009
From: Canada

RE: Another "Artist Model"... (in reply to Anders Eliasson

quote:

How do you guys think this work?


To me it is a marketing method to sell more guitars. You first need to have a player that people care about, in my opinion, more so than the name of the maker. I imagine the sum of both (big brand and big name) would up the price even more.

And I would think it is your 2nd option. I make you sell more guitars and I get a cut off each one. They even went in to market segmentation with 2 models. Nothing wrong with that, you don't want to cut some of the available money pool out.

It would help if he looked me in the eye when he dishes out his spiel.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 4 2012 18:50:37

C. Vega

 

Posts: 379
Joined: Jan. 16 2004
 

RE: Another "Artist Model"... (in reply to rogeliocan

Yes, it's a marketing gimmick but hardly anything new. The steel string makers, from individual luthiers to big factories, have been doing it for decades. And it often works. Make a few minor changes (often only cosmetic), hang the name of some "guitar hero" on it and charge a lot more for it.
Personally, I find it to be rather tacky and even a celebrity endorsement of almost any product is usually enough to keep me from buying it but there are apparently enough people out there who are obsessed with or actually care about things like names, logos and labels to make this a seemingly viable option for some makers. I guess it depends on their target market. But far be it for me to criticize. It's not my money so they can spend it however they choose.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 4 2012 19:09:07
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Another "Artist Model"... (in reply to rogeliocan

quote:

Funny he spends time talking about tension because as he brought it up saying 'extensive detail getting the tension right' I was wondering what he was talking about.... .as if he fell from the moon, well maybe not.

Luthiers may answer this. My first thoughts after hearing this were that if you tie a string to an A 440 between a distance that is constant, for the same strings, how can tension change? So with fixed length and same string, what is there that can be adjusted to modify the tension? saddle height? And by 'modify' I imagine we can only increase or decrease tension, nothing else?


He talks about the tension or stiffness of the guitar, which affects the feel when you play. Its extremely important to get it right. And its also personal. Some want a stiffer guitar than others.

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 4 2012 19:27:06
 
britguy

Posts: 712
Joined: Dec. 26 2010
From: Ontario, Canada

RE: Another "Artist Model"... (in reply to Leñador

quote:

I don't know what he's asking for these ones, he doesn't put prices on his website.


No, you're right. No prices on the site.

So I emailed him regarding the peghead:

$7,500!

(4-6 months wait).

_____________________________

Fruit farmer, Ontario, Canada
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 4 2012 19:27:26
 
rogeliocan

Posts: 811
Joined: Nov. 23 2009
From: Canada

RE: Another "Artist Model"... (in reply to Anders Eliasson

quote:

He talks about the tension or stiffness of the guitar, which affects the feel when you play. Its extremely important to get it right. And its also personal. Some want a stiffer guitar than others.


Thanks for the answer. And searching on stiffness I see that braces, and wood are things that affect it. I will read up on it.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 4 2012 19:38:23
 
beno

Posts: 881
Joined: Nov. 3 2006
From: Hungary

RE: Another "Artist Model"... (in reply to HolyEvil

Anybody ever tried their strings?
http://www.candelas.com/strings.php
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 4 2012 20:02:38
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Another "Artist Model"... (in reply to beno

Strings??? I didn't know they had strings and I've been there several times.....I'll check 'em out. I'll record a d'adarrio vs candela just cus I use d'adarrio now.

_____________________________

\m/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 4 2012 20:24:33
 
z6

 

Posts: 225
Joined: Mar. 1 2011
 

RE: Another "Artist Model"... (in reply to HolyEvil

He mentioned his other two guitars. A deliberate reference in order that prospective customers might make the association but he did not say whether his new guitar would be his 'daily' instrument.

In a (my) perfect world this is how it would be:

Say I'm a renowned musician (i wish), I make a living, I have a couple of great guitars. I happen upon one of Anders' guitars and think 'this is almost perfect but I need x, y and z'. I talk to Anders. He builds one for me. I pay him. If I like it as much or better than my other guitars, I use it... it's my guitar.

Everyone will find out what guitar I'm using, as I use it. I may even go on youtube and tell people that I own great guitars and I now own an Anders.

If we want to make a little extra I say 'how about we design a fantastic student guitar? I put my name on it and I trust you to take care of the quality. We get them built cheaply and in great numbers? Everyone gains. But I'm only doing it because it is all real. All of it. We're helping learners get a good action and setup but maybe not the utimate quality or finish. It's a factory guitar, but a good one (like a Conde or a Yamaha, maybe great maybe not, but pretty good at least).

Buying a 'concert' guitar for $7,500 because it has the name of a guitarist on it is lame but buying a guitar because a concert guitarist uses it, as a matter of genuine preference, makes some sense. It is probably at least a good guitar and it may hold its value. We can get all arty about it but knowing it'll hold value is not a bad thing.

Luthier-built guitars, in my opinion, are works of art. And we get to make music on them, for years, which is great.

Only one name is required... the name of the builder.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 4 2012 21:23:49
 
z6

 

Posts: 225
Joined: Mar. 1 2011
 

RE: Another "Artist Model"... (in reply to HolyEvil

I would add that by 'factory' I mean sub $1,000. If there is a gap in the market, that's where I see it. So much crap to wade through at that price while we know that decent guitars 'can' be built for that price, in a factory, if quality control is earnestly applied.

I think the other, practical, problem this luthier is setting himself is his choice of name. Maybe his guitars are well worth $7,500 but not with Del Monte written on them. Very few people spend that much on a guitar and those that do tend to frown on such things.

In fact, I expect many would feel slightly embarrassed "really, I know it sounds lame but it's a great guitar, in spite of this stupid name on it."

Doesn't sound like good business, for the luthier, to me. He's the one taking all the risk. If he built a great Guitar for Del Monte then Del Monte should just thank the guy by paying him and giving him a hand to reach a wider market.

Unfortunately, as we can all observe, the Spanish economy is tanking. The Germans will do everything they can to keep them in the euro (as the euro was always just a way for the Germans to keep their currency low and thus benefit in the export market, and they like the power, of course).

But when Greece, then Spain and Portugal, Ireland and others exit the euro, there will be super-cheap guitars galore. This will take some time but it will happen. American builders had better get creative because Spanish guitars will go for a song (in hard currency; Just like they used to.)

This not something I relish, by the way. Just stating it.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 4 2012 21:53:22
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Another "Artist Model"... (in reply to HolyEvil

quote:

Buying a 'concert' guitar for $7,500 because it has the name of a guitarist on it is lame


Agreed, in this particular case though Thomas's instruments easily run that price without the name. Britguy asked for the "1A" models price. When I wanted one I asked him what the cheapest one in the store was and got 4K as a response. He builds every one himself hence the waiting list. It's noticeable though, he's a 3rd generation luthier and his instruments are top quality craftsmanship. I'm willing to bet Adam will play his when he feels like, every time I've seen him live it's a different guitar so I don't think he marries instruments like that, or a tuning for that matter.

_____________________________

\m/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 4 2012 21:56:17
 
bursche

Posts: 1182
Joined: Jul. 19 2007
From: Frankfurt, Germany

RE: Another "Artist Model"... (in reply to orsonw

quote:

The guitarist loves playing flamenco guitars.
The luthier loves building flamenco guitars.
They think it would be great to collaborate, share their perspectives and build a great flamenco guitar. They just love flamenco guitars!


Oh what a romantic world do we live in!

_____________________________

Visit me on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRaGz6Lf-Uz0HxUv-dGQFLQ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 4 2012 22:53:10
 
britguy

Posts: 712
Joined: Dec. 26 2010
From: Ontario, Canada

RE: Another "Artist Model"... (in reply to Anders Eliasson

quote:

He talks about the tension or stiffness of the guitar, which affects the feel when you play. Its extremely important to get it right. And its also personal. Some want a stiffer guitar than others.


This may be a bit off the thread, but Anders, can you quantify this 'stiffness'? What is it that gives a particular guitar this characteristic? Is it something to do with the internal bracing, thickness of the soundboard, or what? And how much control does the luthier have over it?

I'm really curious as to exactly what constitues a 'stiff' guitar, from a 'lower tension ' guitar. I've heard the expression several times but never really knew what it meant.

(Maybe this should be posted in the Luthier Forum?)

_____________________________

Fruit farmer, Ontario, Canada
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 4 2012 22:55:35
 
z6

 

Posts: 225
Joined: Mar. 1 2011
 

RE: Another "Artist Model"... (in reply to Leñador

Then (Lenador) I can't figure why the luthier would do such a thing.

There's nothing at all wrong with a guitarist helping a luthier but why would they think his name on the guitar would help?

It doesn't make any sense. This is a 'low-end' strategy. I can't see how this wouldn't hurt a sale at the high end. I may be overly self-conscious but If I tried a guitar, and liked it, then saw it was a 'Paco' model, my heart would sink.

Anyway, I hope it works out for both of them. It's a hard business.

Strangely, your remark that del Monte uses a lot of instruments puts me in mind of what I'd like to see, or 'rather' see. Guitarists making a point about all the great guitars current builders are producing. There's far too much weight given to 'old' or famous names. People end up with fixed ideas (man, if I had a..... my life would be complete).

I haven't tried all the guitars in the world but when I used to try a lot of guitars I found most of them okay to very nice. I was seldom bowled over. But I have a feeling that luthiers are better now than they were. Why wouldn't they be? But we hold onto the 'legends' because there is no way to 'prove' anything. (In fact, I've seen people waxing lyrical over old planks because of the name on them... the builder's name.)

I used to be fixated on Fletas cause I tried two that were better than my wonderful Fleeson (years ago). But the guitar I have now I am sure is better than the Fletas I tried.

But I used a cheap guitar (£200) for 20 years and it was fine. I've tried guitars that cost huge amounts that were not markedly better than my old beater.

But the name of a guitarist on a guitar is, I would have thought, more likely to repel the high end than attract them.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 4 2012 23:12:41
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Another "Artist Model"... (in reply to z6

quote:

Then (Lenador) I can't figure why the luthier would do such a thing.


As I had mentioned before I believe he makes most of his sales building vihuelas, bajo sextos, guitarrons etc.. he may want a bump in his flamenco clients. As well, I had never heard of Candelas being mentioned outside of LA until today in this forum so I think it may have worked. As for Adam, who wouldn't want their own signature guitar? It's like another line on a resume.

I'm from the same school of opinion as you when it comes to purchasing a guitar. I play 'em, if I like 'em, I like 'em. I thought tomatito's guitar didn't compare to the used Raimundo I ended up purchasing. BUT, I know a lot of people who I consider collectors more then musicians who spend crazy amounts of money on guitars and toys just to have them. Signature models are big for these people. I have clients at work that own all kinds of crazy instruments that run 10K plus and can't play a thing. Half the time I laugh at the money they spent cus when you play it, it's not worth it, they bought the name. In short, real muscians don't make up the entire instrument economy, fortunately for the luthiers, cus most of us is broke sumuma bi*ches.

_____________________________

\m/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 4 2012 23:37:49
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Another "Artist Model"... (in reply to britguy

quote:

This may be a bit off the thread, but Anders, can you quantify this 'stiffness'? What is it that gives a particular guitar this characteristic? Is it something to do with the internal bracing, thickness of the soundboard, or what? And how much control does the luthier have over it?

I'm really curious as to exactly what constitues a 'stiff' guitar, from a 'lower tension ' guitar. I've heard the expression several times but never really knew what it meant.

(Maybe this should be posted in the Luthier Forum?)


Britguy, this has been discussed 100 times at least. I´m sorry, but I´m not really up to it now. I think you should search. Pulsation would be a good word or make a thread in the luthiers section.

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 5 2012 8:04:02
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: Another "Artist Model"... (in reply to orsonw

quote:

ORIGINAL: orsonw

quote:

3* something else


The guitarist loves playing flamenco guitars.
The luthier loves building flamenco guitars.
They think it would be great to collaborate, share their perspectives and build a great flamenco guitar. They just love flamenco guitars!


Unfortunately the currency in which the guitars are sold is not love for flamenco guitars. And surely these products, like all others too, will be discontinued if the sales figures drop enough. You can do anything for whatever reason you feel free to choose, but the economic rules will ultimately not only determine the outcome but also your actions. The point about market segmentation which somebody made above is also a valid observation.

_____________________________

Фламенко
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 5 2012 9:16:10
 
Escribano

Posts: 6440
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Another "Artist Model"... (in reply to britguy

quote:

This may be a bit off the thread, but Anders, can you quantify this 'stiffness'? What is it that gives a particular guitar this characteristic? Is it something to do with the internal bracing, thickness of the soundboard, or what? And how much control does the luthier have over it?


http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=135815&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=pulsation&tmode=&smode=&s=#135815

_____________________________

Foro Flamenco founder and Admin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 5 2012 9:22:47
 
orsonw

Posts: 2018
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Another "Artist Model"... (in reply to XXX

quote:

Unfortunately the currency in which the guitars are sold is not love for flamenco guitars.


Yes, unfortunately not! (I was joking in my earlier post)
But I do think that charging money and having passion for one's art need not be mutually exclusive.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 5 2012 12:34:07
 
britguy

Posts: 712
Joined: Dec. 26 2010
From: Ontario, Canada

RE: Another "Artist Model"... (in reply to Anders Eliasson

quote:

make a thread in the luthiers section.


You're right.

I should have researched it more before asking in here. It does not belong in this thread.

If I can't find satisfactory answer in the " Foro search", I'll repost in the LUthier section.

Enjoy the weekend.

_____________________________

Fruit farmer, Ontario, Canada
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 5 2012 13:02:55
Page:   [1] 2    >   >>
All Forums >>Discussions >>General >> Page: [1] 2    >   >>
Jump to:

New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET

0.09375 secs.