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RE: When is it...not Flamenco??
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Ricardo
Posts: 14828
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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 RE: When is it...not Flamenco?? (in reply to larone)
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quote:
Defining puro flamenco is not a matter of taste it is a matter of respect to the art and tha artists.
quote:
there are many discussions of the puro way of playing or singing whatever palo. I have often heard the artists debating in the minutest detail what makes something 'puro' even down to the delivery.
I think this shows a condradiction. The point being that it is a matter of taste and personal preference. Who keeps claiming that flamenco puro is dying? The young people doing new things, or the old people who sing the same stuff? Paco made it clear that there was a way to keep flamenco "pure" without playing or singing the same old stuff. It really caught on, because so many recognized that as pure, but of course there are many who disagree. To some, only the traditional is pure. Flamenco is not meant to be "classical" IMO, it is meant to accept change. But there is nothing wrong with just playing or singing the classics. It will ALWAYS be there, no danger of "dying". Since Shoenberg, no one is afraid Bach will dissappear, LOL! Likewise, a lot of old flamenco has been presereved in excellent recordings. I have seen plenty of young people in Spain playing and singing old stuff. You have to be really advanced and have a taste for modern stuff like Canizares or Duquende. But is one more PURE than the other just because it was created at a certain time?
If the level of purity is not a matter of taste, than WHO is it that makes the defenition? I have had a rare opportunity to accompany a Solea for Diego Agujetas in a bar in Sanlucar a few years ago. Does that give ME more of a right than ToddK at defining "puro" flamenco guitar? If you think so than, I am sorry, you don't play guitar.
Ricardo
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Date Sep. 15 2005 17:42:49
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Mark2
Posts: 1872
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
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RE: When is it...not Flamenco?? (in reply to Ron.M)
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quote:
Yeah Mark...but that's impossible for a lot of Flamenco guitar enthusiasts around the world.
So in a way I don't think that's a fair benchmark for most amateurs who frequent the flamenco forums.
I think that (especially in solo style) one can, with a lot of work, acquire enough knowledge and technique to play a perfectly respectable and competent piece of music which would be judged as good by anyone from the flamenco community, even in Andalucia.
cheers
Ron
I agree Ron, and there are people who post their work on this forum who have proved your point. But, they were not the example you first wrote about-you wrote about a fictional guy who claims to play flamenco without really understanding it. And my point was that this hypothetical player may be able to fool an audience, but not a flamenco singer or dancer.
And I have to agree with Kate as well, in her distinction between people who love flamenco, and those she calls "flamencos"
My passion is surfing, and believe me, it's not fair. In many cases, less skilled surfers, or those who simply live in a different town, are not allowed equal access to the waves. Flamenco is not fair either. Non gypsy, non Spanish, non Spanish speaking, etc. are not given equal access.
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Date Sep. 15 2005 18:39:55
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Ricardo
Posts: 14828
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: When is it...not Flamenco?? (in reply to Florian)
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quote:
I think that (especially in solo style) one can, with a lot of work, acquire enough knowledge and technique to play a perfectly respectable and competent piece of music which would be judged as good by anyone from the flamenco community, even in Andalucia.
Ok, respectable, competent, good,.....but pure? Eventually you guys will have to admit that a flamenco guitar solo could never be considered "pure flamenco" since it's role must be for accomp only. Or only a great accompanist could deliver a "pure" guitar solo. I say that is BS. Cante solo, footwork solo, guitar solo, cajon solo, whatever, can be flamenco puro depending on the tastes and knowleadge of performer and audience.
Ricardo
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Date Sep. 15 2005 19:04:23
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Mark2
Posts: 1872
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
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RE: When is it...not Flamenco?? (in reply to Florian)
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Simon saying that i have to come to Spain to learn how to be a flamenco is like saying that i have to go into church to find god :-)
No man, it's not like that. God is everywhere, but flamenco is in Spain. As much as you love it, you owe it to yourself to go there, and stay for as long as humanly possible. It's all about the atmosphere, the food, the people, etc. You love flamenco, and you should see where it was born. And, hell, bring that girl-she sounds, uh, understanding. 
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Date Sep. 15 2005 19:41:04
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Florian
Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia
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RE: When is it...not Flamenco?? (in reply to Mark2)
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Mark I would love to go to Spain when i can afford it :-) i know is not like that , i know is where flamenco comes from, and i am familiar with the food and the atmosphere and the pple since theres Spanish pple here :-)
Is just that telling a guy whos whole life is flamenco thats all he does and loves (regardless of weather you think he plays well or not) ofcourse he will stand up and respond the way I did :-)
I dont care if you Paco de Lucia , you dont get to tell me if I am flamenco enough of not, I am not saying that Simon said that I am just speaking general, i know how much i put into it and i know how much i love it so anyone that attempts to tell me that what i have is not the real thing, is just a pretend, i will argue with :-)
there is flamenco singers here born in spain , theres dancers and guitarists here that go to spain every year to better themselfs and bring ideas back etc, and finaly theres even Spanish pple here that make Tortilla and Paella, so even tho i have not been to Spain myself what goes on here is just as much real as what goes on there, at a different level ofcourse but still just as real :-)
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Date Sep. 15 2005 19:58:31
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Escribano
Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy
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RE: When is it...not Flamenco?? A SP... (in reply to Florian)
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quote:
saying that i have to come to Spain to learn how to be a flamenco is like saying that i have to go into church to find god
No, it's like saying, if you want to learn Spanish, go to a Spanish-speaking country, like Spain (it can only help).
quote:
give me an example of something they can experiance there that i cant experiance here or wherever i happen to be
There is no competition but remember this drunken Saturday evening in Jerez? http://www.foroflamenco.com/jerez2004/images/Moneo%202.wmv
We won't find this in Granada anywhere near as easily but you have the offer to stay at my place for free (bring a paintbrush), the bus to Granada stops just outside my house (2 Euros). I'll even pay your airfare, one-way (you find the cheapest to Madrid, or London then Monarch or RyanAir for Granada).
You'll have to find work for beer and food, though I might give you a discount for some lessons from you. Should be able to stay for 3 months on an Aussie passport. Best time would be for Jerez festival next year, but I'm easy.
I'm serious.
Call it the first foroflamenco scholarship. Be warned, in my valley, your solea will get lots of polishing.
p.s. bring the girl, I feel like some cajon 
_____________________________
Foro Flamenco founder and Admin
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Date Sep. 15 2005 20:09:10
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gerundino63
Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands
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RE: When is it...not Flamenco?? (in reply to Florian)
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In My oppinion this is a silly discusion.
Can anybody clarify pure for me?
I know pure chocalate, pure gold, it means mixed with nothing.
Are we talking the same thing here?
When got the guitar involved wit the singing?, was it pure before the guitar was involved?
I red in an article a few years ago where a gipsy lady told, that flamenco is impossible on a stage.
so, is it not pure if it is performed on a stage?
If that is so, is it not Pure on a record?
When I play my guitar, I play flamenco. the only thing I can do on a guitar, I play from the heart, mean and feel what I play, the best I can do on that perticular moment, it feels pure for me, but is it?
I do not know, so, can anybody tell me what is pure?
Peter
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Date Sep. 15 2005 20:10:59
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Escribano
Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy
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RE: When is it...not Flamenco?? (in reply to gerundino63)
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quote:
I do not know, so, can anybody tell me what is pure?
As I expected, this brings a long, heated discussion. The thread has deviated from the question: "What is (or is not) flamenco?"
I assume punk is not flamenco, so we are working within fairly tight parameters; in which case, it's is like asking "what is love?"
For me it's a canteor/ora, guitar and palmas, in a small venue like a peña or parlour, the odd jaleo, the sweet smoke of Ducados...
... and a beautiful girl. When she looks at me, I see a different, happy life stretch before me. Like a sunny path down through the trees, to the river. Of course. she is not my girl. She's married to the philandering lemonade seller and I just passed her on the mule path.
It's not transcribing or technique. It's an evocation, a lifestyle, aspirations, hopes, dreams, love, loss, death. The song of the disposessed. It's romance, dammit! Oh, and compás. .
Sorry, got all poetic there for a moment. Back to practising then.
_____________________________
Foro Flamenco founder and Admin
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Date Sep. 15 2005 20:31:44
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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RE: When is it...not Flamenco?? (in reply to Escribano)
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quote:
It's an evocation, a lifestyle, aspirations, hopes, dreams, love, loss, death. The song of the disposessed. It's romance, dammit! Oh, and compás. .
Sí,
.....and the Evil Thumb!
Ron
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Date Sep. 15 2005 21:36:35
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Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
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RE: When is it...not Flamenco?? (in reply to Florian)
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Wow, I step away for a day and foroflamenco has woken up! I like it!
Kate,
I can understand how all the people in your community would agree on the style of music they have grown up loving and performing. It seems to me that when they say "puro" they are talking about a specific way of performing the music which is open to gypsies and people who were born in Granada (or Jerez, or whatever). Those who are from this area and follow the traditions are puro. Anyone else is a pretender. While I can sympathize with their point of view, I don't agree, anymore that I agree that all jazz which is played by non-New Orleans residents (well there aren't any anymore) is not "puro" jazz.
What we are really taking about is an exclusionary and racist set of standards. I love this type of music too and I agree it should be nurtured and not allowed to fall by the wayside, pushed away by the "le le le's", but I still reject this snobby terminology and mentality. Disagreement aside, surely you know that I applaud your work in this area and hope you can continue it as long as you wish.
Florian,
go to Spain! You will learn so much and you will love it. You really should do anything in your power to get over there. No lip from you, young man, just go!
Everyone else,
it seems to me that the essence of this argument is the same old generation gap, old vs. new, roots vs. growth kind of thing. It's very natural, and the only salve is tolerance. You may think that your kind of flamenco is "authentic" or "puro", but just a little knowledge of the history of flamenco (not merely of your town, but the big picture) shows you that flamenco is by nature an amalgamation of Gypsy, Sephardic, and Arabic musics. The guitar technique is a folk technique with many significant additions from the classical masters of Spain. What many call a pure and ancient thing is not really that old at all, and those who decry its commercialization don't seem to know or acknowledge that the professionals have created most of its features.
Nothing stands still and kids always have to go further than what was before. Old folks curse the modern football players who have their own dances, or badmouth the incredible athletes who play basketball for their flashy styles. But the young'uns are just going to roll their eyes at them, because "they don't get it." But is either of them right? Is it more pure to shoot a layup than a rim-rattling dunk? Give me a break...anyways they both count for 2 points.
I don't like the new forms of flamenco half as much as older stuff, but I wouldn't insult the artists of a livign art for their experimentations and innovations by telling them that their art is not pure. It reflects very poorly on those who do and shows a lack of perspective. Unless you want to play bulerias all day, it might help to reflect on the many beautiful palos of flamenco and remember that they came about by evolution, not a single clap of inspiration from a "puro" Gipsy family in Jerez!
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Date Sep. 15 2005 21:43:30
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Ricardo
Posts: 14828
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: When is it...not Flamenco?? (in reply to Florian)
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quote:
I'm with up until the "whatever". I was going to say cajon, but then I thought about a cajon guy playing a solo over palmas and thought, yeah, ok. But I don't know about "whatever". Violin or cello, for example. I don't know that I will ever consider those instruments capable of producing on their own what "I" consider "pure" flamenco.
See, that's my point. You and I have a similar place to draw the line. It is taste and opinion. That is why I said "whatever". There are many who draw the line at "Cante solo". Imagine if I had said "cajon solo" before 1981. People would be like "how is that flamenco at all?". Flamenco is very open to change, and it is all about where we each draw the line personally. I saw cajon doing flamenco puro in Sanlucar many years ago, and my opinion about it changed overnight. I am open to something new in my "whatever" category to change my mind again. Some pianists know their stuff, but have not convinced me. Could be I have yet to discover something very great and "pure". Oh, there is a young kid in a bar in Sanlucar playing flamenco Clarinet. You would be surprised!
Florian, I am with you on your attitude, but if you have yet to go....I wish I had argued with Simon. Take him up on the offer NOW! Plenty of hot ass to tap bulerias on...did I say that out loud?
Ricardo
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Date Sep. 15 2005 22:13:54
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as i do when I disagree with Ron , but is almost become a fun game with him, I kind of do it just for the sake of disagreeing :-) but thats just between you and me 
I am like the punk son hes always never known he wanted.
