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RE: Soundport AFTER guitar made? (in reply to Jeff Highland)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jeff Highland
Deniz Al Caruth is definitely not against soundports and neither am I. Most of what Al says is not just theoretical based but confirmed by trial.
When I say that a frequency Analysis before modification is useful I am talking about a 5 minute test on the actual guitar.You then know whether raising the Air resonance is likely to give problems.
Overinterpretation - another phenomenon on internet forums I never said he was against soundports. Actually I dont care whether he likes them or not, or how much testing he has done. All im saying is you guys are theoretizing on a question that can be answered in 5 minutes using your ear. To bursche, ports cannot turn a bad guitar into a good one. Its more like an upgrade, an enhancement. But here i go again making the same over complicating mistake as you guys. Just take a f'ing soundport guitar and test it yourself if you want to have an educated opinion on it. You may like it, may not. Each his own.
And just for the record: there MIGHT be the possibility that the guitar is NOT a perfect instrument and it CAN be optimized further. If a hole at the side does lead to a better sound then this IS an optimization.
RE: Soundport AFTER guitar made? (in reply to XXX)
quote:
And just for the record: there MIGHT be the possibility that the guitar is NOT a perfect instrument and it CAN be optimized further. If a hole at the side does lead to a better sound then this IS an optimization.
... a hOLe on the SIDE ? you say ? good heavens man you must be mad
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Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Soundport AFTER guitar made? (in reply to HolyEvil)
don't do it.
If you want to hear more guitar from your vantage point (the only point of a soundport) when practicing, simply play closer to a door, wall, mirror, or other flat reflective surface. Or use a mic and headphones when practicing. If it is about hearing yourself when performing, use decent monitoring.
If you like they way they look, then decide if you may want to sell your guitar in the future or not first.
RE: Soundport AFTER guitar made? (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
quote:
I feel this is an ever so occuring phenomenon on internet forums, talking about something in a way that is over complicated, because you can only find out by trying yourself if its good for you, if you lke it or not. All these nerdy luthier topics might be interesting, might be not, at the end of the day i would simply ignore all of it and judge the sound with your ears.
Good point, as the guitar has its own delivery with its own voicing. Anything done that would change the physical properties, would have the tendency to change the voice to some degree.
What I hear in ported models is a fuller sound but does it improve the character of the voice. Some players might not care about this but, to me, the voice is important for the finished product. So, any designed ported guitar stands a better chance than a guitar with no ports, that is altered.
I have come to a place in the road that demands that my current guitars use the same string brand I tuned the guitar with. The finer-tuning demands the original string brand, otherwise there is a risk that an alternate string brand will pull the fine-tuning off center.
I just recently came to this conclusion with a good guitarist who bought my latest model.
RE: Soundport AFTER guitar made? (in reply to Tom Blackshear)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear I have come to a place in the road that demands that my current guitars use the same string brand I tuned the guitar with. The finer-tuning demands the original string brand, otherwise there is a risk that an alternate string brand will pull the fine-tuning off center.
I bet you would be hard pressed for anyone to tell the difference.
RE: Soundport AFTER guitar made? (in reply to tri7/5)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dyingsea
quote:
ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear I have come to a place in the road that demands that my current guitars use the same string brand I tuned the guitar with. The finer-tuning demands the original string brand, otherwise there is a risk that an alternate string brand will pull the fine-tuning off center.
I bet you would be hard pressed for anyone to tell the difference.
If you had checked out my front page you might have understood my reason for doing this. I now have to put a warning on my website for this reason:
To whom it may concern...change string brands at your own risk.
Currently, my tuning concept for voicing guitar tops has become so fine that it is critical to use the original string brand to sustain ongoing guitar voicing and performance.
The name of the string brand is D'Addario Pro-Arte EJ46 hard tension, "Silver plated Wound, clear Nylon classical guitar strings".
The need for this specific string became apparent to me when a very fine guitarist recently bought my latest classical guitar and changed the strings to another well recognized brand. He said that the voice was not as good and things were not operating as they should.
I quickly urged him to take off the strings and replace them with the D'Addario brand. He did and everything went back to its original fine tuned mode.
I explained to him that it was highly risky to change to other string brands, especially when the new top is trying to join with its original string tension, under finely tuned conditions.
The idea that top wood wants to comply with its original strings, has some merit, and I have come to believe that with my fine tuning it is even more critical to stay with the D'Addario.
It takes time for a new top to come into unison and be synergistically one with its strings, especially with my fine tuning.
It will always take a certain amount of age to settle the guitar top into a more mature performance, and changing to other string brands on my guitars will cause a significant amount of distortion along with confusion in the top's ability to communicate with its original string tension and characteristics.
Since I've become accustomed to using EJ46 D'Addario classical guitar strings for many years, I recommend them for all of my guitars.
RE: Soundport AFTER guitar made? (in reply to XXX)
Wow everyone is all over this one.
Florian, I was not meaning my comment to be condescending towards you for opening a port in your guitar, or anyone else. What I was saying is that I am happy none of the folks who have my guitars want to change them. If they want a port I ask them to discuss it and decide before I make the guitar. Truth be told these days I find myself making them less. I have a policy that I ask them three times during our talks if they want a port, I don't try to sell it up. And I saw all the edits you did blaspheming me, you owe me a beer for that.
If I make guitar with a port I do certain things I would not do if it was without a port. I used to think I would make a guitar and later a port cold be opened in it an I would be ok with that, but I've since learned more and I no longer hold that view. I think we should all be able to change our minds and change them back as we learn. You know a PhD spends two years writing a dissertation and the rest of his life defending it. I'm just not willing to be that stubborn.
That said I'm not against the port, but I want to make sure they understand it and not want it to be trendy or as a gimmick. The reason I don't want the port opened up later is that I've learned more about the placement and size of how the port works on the plantilla and body depths, etc. I use. I also have learned more about how it works with the main soundhole.
I have strong proprietary love for my work, when you spend a 150 hours making something with focused conviction you really don't want someone else who can't get in your head to mess up your work. But in end the guitar belongs to the owner, I can only hope I am lucky enough to continue to be engaged to build guitars for those who respect and trust my intentions.
There is another thing, I personally don't want this sound port concept to be construed as a fix all for a guitar owner who gets itchy to change something to get more performance. I feel it's a bad thing to promote because it could get out of control and some really fine guitars could be ruined. You may scoff at this and see it as a negative attitude, but this has happened before when a trend hits and people start being able to make easy money by doing modifications. The trend to shave the braces on vintage Martin guitars has led to many difficulties in repair and restoration work on those instruments if not the total failure of bracing resulting in a wrecked vintage guitar. I would hate to see sound port modification end up as something we look back at and regret.
And to make a long boring post longer and more boringer, I listen to guitarists ideas and how they hear the port and what it does for them. Or what it does not do. Ricardo and Jason have different ideas about how they respond to it and I take both accounts seriously. The last time the port conversation reared its ugly hole in the head I had to think for several months on what Ricardo was saying about his experiences.
RE: Soundport AFTER guitar made? (in reply to Tom Blackshear)
quote:
To whom it may concern...change string brands at your own risk.
Can I quote you on that?
You really should write book about your tuning methods and sell it. You could include those little packages of salt you get for picnic lunches with the booklet.
I'd buy a book if you wrote one. I might not follow your advice, but I would give you money for the book.
RE: Soundport AFTER guitar made? (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
quote:
To whom it may concern...change string brands at your own risk.
Can I quote you on that?
You really should write book about your tuning methods and sell it. You could include those little packages of salt you get for picnic lunches with the booklet.
I'd buy a book if you wrote one. I might not follow your advice, but I would give you money for the book.
Picnic (Iodised) salt will not do Steven. We're talking the finest NOS salt pre-1951 only.
RE: Soundport AFTER guitar made? (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
And I saw all the edits you did blaspheming me, you owe me a beer for that.
, I am sorry, i ran my mouth first...then stooped ...looked back at what you said, considered the possibility that i misread it...decided to delete it..sorry you saw it before i had a chance too..i owe you 3 beers
quote:
I personally don't want this sound port concept to be construed as a fix all for a guitar owner who gets itchy to change something to get more performance. I feel it's a bad thing to promote because it could get out of control and some really fine guitars could be ruined. You may scoff at this and see it as a negative attitude, but this has happened before when a trend hits and people start being able to make easy money by doing modifications.
ok part of me sees your point...but the other also sees mine, i am not promoting as far as i am concerned, i got this done on mine, i love it, trend or not, i am telling those that ask about it, about my experience with it... its a happy one...if you see that as promoting fine... but i see it as passing on some information i was only too happy to receive myself when i didn't know about it.....i have no invested interest , i dont get a share from sound ports made or have a guitar alteration shop.....
Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston
RE: Soundport AFTER guitar made? (in reply to Tom Blackshear)
gee, a discussion, a good one at that, about ports and now we have to deal with salt...oops, excuse me, sandpaper and string specific guitars. oh crap.
back to the subject--i think the point estebanana is making, one that al, i believe made, is that when doing something as an aftermarket one runs the risk of changing the characteristic of a guitar and the effect could be negative. florian, did you have your guitar ported by a luthier? if so i wonder if that luthier did some diagnostic work pre and post porting.
RE: Soundport AFTER guitar made? (in reply to Florian)
quote:
, I am sorry, i ran my mouth first...then stooped ...looked back at what you said, considered the possibility that i misread it...decided to delete it..sorry you saw it before i had a chance too..i owe you 3 beers
I was flattered you think enough of me to call me an assoundhole. I accept the three beers. YUM!
And as I listened to Ricardo's issues and Jason's and thought about them I hear you too, as Bill Clinton said I feel your soundhole pain.
RE: Soundport AFTER guitar made? (in reply to keith)
quote:
florian, did you have your guitar ported by a luthier? if so i wonder if that luthier did some diagnostic work pre and post porting.
i had it done by a guitar shop, i dont know if he makes them but he fixes them (same guy that fixed a crack i had put in it years later) ...he did not do diagnostic work ...i told him the approx size of the hole Anders recommended and he did it....next day went i went over to the shop to pick it up we both tried it and both liked it and agreed it was an improvement
quote:
I was flattered you think enough of me to call me an assoundhole.
again i feel badly about that, put my foot in it ...my only excuse ..i thought you were trying to be insulting and jumped the gun before i double checked the context
quote:
quote:
I am very lucky in that people who buy my work are very bright folks and don't do that kind of thing.
but on the plus side ...all this misunderstanding and reacting and my soundport ...i think i just helped you prove your point
RE: Soundport AFTER guitar made? (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
quote:
To whom it may concern...change string brands at your own risk.
Can I quote you on that?
You really should write book about your tuning methods and sell it. You could include those little packages of salt you get for picnic lunches with the booklet.
I'd buy a book if you wrote one. I might not follow your advice, but I would give you money for the book.
FYI, I did that technique on one guitar, with the salt, and Chaconne Klavarenga owns it. I have found that the current #400 self stick sandpaper works better.
But getting back to sound ports, my guitars would suffer from the alteration due to issues with fine-tuning.
I have seen some alterations done by repairmen to recognized builders guitars and I, for one, think its disrespectful. If a player doesn't like his guitar, sell it and get another one.
Especially if the original maker is not known to put sound ports in his guitars. That would constitute an interesting scenario when it came to re-sell.
RE: Soundport AFTER guitar made? (in reply to Florian)
quote:
again i feel badly about that, put my foot in it ...my only excuse ..i thought you were trying to be insulting and jumped the gun before i double checked the context
Please Florian, don't feel bad my friend. Next time Jason goes to Australia I will come too and we can have better insults in person.
RE: Soundport AFTER guitar made? (in reply to estebanana)
i am lucky, i forget whos making whose guitars ...i was just about to throw ...Jason says soundholes are good !! who are you to tell me otherwise...forgetting ...you make his guitars ...now that would have been humiliating
RE: Soundport AFTER guitar made? (in reply to Florian)
And don't forget Glenn Canin, he's made more for Jason. Right now I am starting a Maple /spruce for Jason. I have two to finish before I can go full time on his, but the wood is sitting here talking at me.
I showed Jason my first guitar with a sound port and then he asked Glenn to build him one. Jason also likes cutaways and his toque is set for when he accompanies he needs access to high bass notes. Were it not for that he would have grabbed a few other of my guitars without cutaways. His new guitar will likely have a sound port, but I'll make the main sound hole smaller and few other things to bring the main air down a notch. .
RE: Soundport AFTER guitar made? (in reply to XXX)
This is a very entertaining thread.
Mr. Blackshear, I particuarly enjoyed hearing about how your guitars only work with one brand of string.
If I had spent a substantial amount of money on a luthier guitar and decided, after changing strings (without noticing that the string change was the culprit) that it sounded or played bad enough to take it back to the maker, I would want to be hypnotized into thinking the string thing was the fix. In fact, I'd probably feel like killing myself if I'd spent a bundle then it sounded like a dud.
Lucky you were there to change the strings for the guy.
How come it took you so long to notice this effect?
I like slippery strings myself.
I have read many threads on strings but never get them. As long as they're in tune and slippery I'm fine. Truth be told, all this forensic 'string quality' stuff is over my head so you can imagine my surprise when I hear that 10,000 dollar guitars can fall from heaven to hell for the price of a set of strings. Blow me down.
As for holes in the guitar. I'm an old fart. One hole is enough for me. If I want to hear myself better I'll get my neck ring thing going until I can plant my head in front of the sound hole to hear what's going on.
The original poster had a legitimate point. He's itching for another hole in his guitar, takes it to a luthier who tells him he'll do it but please don't come back here with an axe once you realise what you've done to your guitar. (The only recourse then is to contact other members of the Church of the Soundport or similar support groups.)
Each to his own but those things are butt ugly. Much better just to make sure you have the most perfect marriage of guitar and string, no?
(Please don't take offence Mr. Blackshear, I can see you are a true craftsman, your guitars are beautiful... but steady on old chap.)
Posts: 1240
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia
RE: Soundport AFTER guitar made? (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
His new guitar will likely have a sound port, but I'll make the main sound hole smaller and few other things to bring the main air down a notch. .
this is what the luthier said to me, it's better to have a soundport added to a guitar when it's being built so the maker would alter other aspects of the guitar to balance what the soundport would bring. Like my original post, he also explains what the soundport can add/alter to my guitar. He's great in this aspect, anyone can just do it and get money for it, he usually explains to me what and why he is doing something.
I'll get a cutaway negra with soundport if I even am good enough to commission a guitar.
and to those who think I'm thinking of doing it because I'm not happy with my guitar, I actually REALLY like my guitar, just that when I played Jason M's and Nigel's Canin(s), I really like the sound effect that the soundport brings, it's more in your face/head and I wanted to get that for my guitar.
Posts: 1240
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia
RE: Soundport AFTER guitar made? (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
don't do it.
If you want to hear more guitar from your vantage point (the only point of a soundport) when practicing, simply play closer to a door, wall, mirror, or other flat reflective surface.
If you like they way they look, then decide if you may want to sell your guitar in the future or not first.
this was suggested to me by the luthier. Bathroom, wall, close my doors etc.
and i actually dislike the look of a soundport prior to playing one with it. Now I don't mind it.
and why did you say 'don't do it', have you had a bad experience with it? please share!!
RE: Soundport AFTER guitar made? (in reply to HolyEvil)
quote:
I really like the sound effect that the soundport brings, it's more in your face/head and I wanted to get that for my guitar.
should have told me you played one ...wouldn't have invested so much energy trying to explain something you have already experienced for yourself...it had you at "hello" right ?
Posts: 1240
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia
RE: Soundport AFTER guitar made? (in reply to Florian)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Florian
should have told me you played one ...wouldn't have invested so much energy trying to explain something you have already experienced for yourself...it had you at hello right ?
then this wouldn't turn into such an interesting discussion would it? and yes, it did had me at hello.. ... it had me at hello...
RE: Soundport AFTER guitar made? (in reply to XXX)
Yes, I know. I'm a noob and have no right. But It's late and I can't help myself.
You asked Ricardo if he'd had any 'bad experiences' but surely you need to broaden your research on the matter? I've had a few bad experiences with sound ports I can tell you. How was I to know I shouldn't eat peanuts when I play? It took months to get them out. There's another health warning to go with Mr. Blackshear's 'inappropriate string theory'
And I got addicted to shouting obscenities down the hole.
I know that any 'bad experiences' that Ricardo may have had carry a lot more weight than mine, but hell I'm human too.
And you want to be careful about those holes if you ever have a stint in a Polar Science station. Those sound ports can be temptresses, believe me.
What I find odd is that here the concept of a cutaway is lumped in with the sound port, as if they're in some way related.
A sound port offers the prospect of... what was it Florian said? 'Even if its not real... just an illusion... give me the illusion of having a sound and I'll take it every day.'
There it is, from the world's most ardent fan. Know what you're getting before you grab that drill.
On the other hand, a cutaway is not an illusion. Luthiers do not have to 'ask three times' whether you want easy access to the higher frets.
I'd also like to hear of anyone else who had 'bad experiences'. Maybe a support group is in order after all?
(Sorry. it is very late here and sound ports are so silly. Is it okay to think that or will someone be offended?)
I know, proper players who can actually play use them so they can't be silly. They've already been cited! But don't forget that those guys can offload those things onto people such as yourself. On the other hand, if/when you sell your guitar you might be miffed at prospective customers who notice the 'hole' and want a hefty discount (whether they 'feel' the surround sound or not).
I say go for it! Upload pics after the operation and join the converted.
In seriousness... order a new one from a luthier and beg him to be honest. The overwhelming impression I have is that these things indeed do 'offer' the player something for nothing. One could almost guarantee that if these holes become fully accepted a floor salesman, all other things being equal, would be able to shift them above the old fashioned, outdated models with but a solitary, sad, lonely little hole in the front of the guitar that only spewed out noise... frontways.
And you want to be careful about those holes if you ever have a stint in a Polar Science station. Those sound ports can be temptresses, believe me.
You mean like this hot little mama?
This is the sound port that launched a thousand ships. I made this in 2006 and showed it Jason. He in turn showed it to Glenn Canin and then the sound port games began. Prior to this I had never seen a flamenco guitar with a sound port.
Antonio Moya played this guitar and he wanted it. However I needed to sell it. He took a big whiff and said the inside smelled like canela. I was dating this hot Peruvian woman at the time and when Moya told me I would go on to make guitars as good as the best flamenco makers in Spain and command good fees my girlfriend said to him "How long will it be before his guitars cost 7000.00 dollars each? Moya turned to me and said "This is not the woman for you." And he was right. But I oh I loved her, but she was really mean to me so I left.
This guitar now has a happy home in San Francisco.
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RE: Soundport AFTER guitar made? (in reply to XXX)
Estebanana....
What can I say? I take everything back.
Man, that really cracked me up. One thing for sure... if one has to have a soundport, this is the one to have. You are an artist.
This is not the big, stupid, gaping, open-mouthed thing I had in mind when I tried to add a little balance to the soundport love-in that seemed, to me, to threaten to pull someone into a deal that might one day seem... a bit thick.
Your inspired work notwithstanding, there is one other point that could be addressed, vis-a-vis a soundport for an 'underdeveloped' player:
Just as established, mature, musicians can make up their own minds on such things, and always be able to unload for a good price if they get fed up, it's worth bearing in mind that the guitar/player relationship is, among other things, a feedback loop.
Advanced players know what they're doing whether they're banging an orange box in a bar or they're routed through a box of electronic spice that can shape the sound any way they please. But a learner might just get to lovin' their sound a bit too much and thus fail to delve into the deeper layers of their potential.
Just a thought.
But if I ever 'feel the need', you are the soundport master Estebanana, no question. It's 4 am here and you have pasted a smile to my face. Thanks.
RE: Soundport AFTER guitar made? (in reply to XXX)
You're welcome. I thought your posts were pretty funny too. Did you go to Mc Murdoe Station? In Antarctica ?
So that rib cracked while I was building the guitar. It cracked right where the sound port is. So I cleated the crack at top and bottom and simply made the hole wide. I used some of the left over rosette material to edge it. And there is my first sound port. It was actually an accident gone good.
There is a school of thought about sound ports that they are seductive under the players ear and don't push the player to put forth a big sound out front because they are mesmerized by the envelope of sound around them. That was one of the first detracting things I heard players say.
For recording however the sound port can be mic'ed on a separate track and it adds a dimension of space to the recording. You can mic the finger board and sound port at the same time... So there is that to explore if you record.
The other plus is in noisy gig situations where people are clinking glasses and forks you can cock your ear into your sound port and stay focused when the noise around you is knocking you off balance. I used to play that guitar above with dancers and singers in restaurant and I can say it works.
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, I am sorry, i ran my mouth first...then stooped ...looked back at what you said, considered the possibility that i misread it...decided to delete it..sorry you saw it before i had a chance too..i owe you 3 beers 
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