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RE: Fixing action on old guitar?   You are logged in as Guest
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estebanana

Posts: 9367
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Fixing action on old guitar? (in reply to britguy) 
I think you should figure out how the neck is incorrect first. Then plan a course of action. I agree with Ricardo, it is a nice old guitar, and its aged well. I bet it will sound good when fixed up.

You only need to gain between .5 and 1mm at the 12th fret to get you into flamenco action zone. That means lowering the saddle 1 mm to 2mm.

I think you really need to analyze the neck carefully to determine whether it's bending or moved forward. As I explained above the treatments for each kind of neck malady are different. If the neck is simply flexed into a curve it is very fixable with a carbon fiber interior stringer. I've done this on other guitars of this vintage with excellent results and I'm sure someone near you can do it too.

If it is in need of a neck reset, tricker more expensive, but still doable. The difficulty is in getting the back off the guitar. There are two basic ways to go about it. The brutal way is to use a router to remove the binding to the depth of the back plate around around the perimeter of the guitar and then slip a razor saw under the back plate and cut it free from the lining around the rim. Then you take a hot knife and work it under the heel to unpaste the back from the heel. Very difficult job.

The other neck reset which is preferable is to remove the binding by skill and patience. You find a way to get a drop of hot water and a thin blade under the binding and work it off little by little without breaking it. If the guitar is glued together with hide glue there is a good chance you'll get the binding off with some luthier tricks of the trade. After that you can work the back off the liners with damp sponges and hot knives.....

The take the back off method either way is expert level work. The carbon fiber is easier and cheaper. The carbon fiber would also leave the guitar looking proper without a fingerboard which is planed to slope to the nut. There is nothing wrong with that method of getting a good action, but it only puts a band aid on the real problem and does not fix it.

So I am just throwing this out there for all to see the difference in the type of neck issues. It pays to look carefully at which type of problem it is. Very often on older guitars some more flexible neck wood might have been used and if it has taken a set between nut and body it's not that big of a deal. Moving from the body forward, a whole different and bigger problem.

I would also say if it needs a real neck reset, planing the fingerboard to slope toward the nut would probably be an acceptable and realistic compromise. That guitar might not be worth taking the back off. It just depends on what it is worth to you.

There is also one more neck reset, but I don't like it as a solution to flamenco guitars. There were some steel string guitars made in the 1970's and 80's which were built with Spanish heels. One company made some really good one out of Brazilian rosewood. I had one come to the shop about 3 or 4 years ago which was a Dreadnaught model of Brazilian rosewood and it sounded great. Problem was some idiot did this neck reset called "slipping the heel"- This means you loosen the slipper foot part of the neck from the back and force the neck back into place and reglue the heel without taking the back off the guitar.

Slipping the heel almost always results in stressing the back into a compression bulge near the slipper foot on the back of the guitar. It is a really bad way to address the neck reset. Too bad on this Dread a shop ( quite famous too) on the other side of town hacked it up by doing this. I was never able to fix the damage done by the slipped heel, and the neck simply slumped forward again despite the efforts of said shop to fix this.

I did however cut the entire neck off the guitar right at the body and turn the neck into a bolt on neck. I epoxied threaded inserts into the neck root and drilled through the neck block and remounted the neck with fine thread Allen bolts. Then to reset the neck in the future you take the neck off and shim the neck back into place with micro scraps of rosewood and bolt it back on. So far the neck has been stable ever since. Too bad they slipped the heel~ I removed the WAY OVERSIZED and ostentatious repair tag they left in the guitar.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 9 2012 18:11:52
 
Morante

 

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RE: Fixing action on old guitar? (in reply to britguy) 
This guitar is really nice and well worth fixing. If you don't want it, sell it to me and I will restore it for myself
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 9 2012 18:32:29

C. Vega

 

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RE: Fixing action on old guitar? (in reply to estebanana) 
Bruno (C. Bruno and Co.) was a big Chicago-based importer, wholesaler and distributor, not a guitar manufacturer. "Ventura" was just one of their numerous house brand names. This guitar was made in a Japanese factory and unlikely to have been constructed in the Spanish fashion. It's most likely a dovetail neck-to-body joint or possibly even a doweled butt joint.
At this point the break angle over the saddle appears to be woefully inadequate. Removing some wood from the inner lip of the saddle block so that the strings clear it and drilling the tie block with six more holes and using a different system of tying the strings (or using those goofy looking beads) will help a little.
Personally, I wouldn't put much time, effort or money into such an instrument but if you just want to play around with it yourself, by all means have fun. If it doesn't work out it can still serve as a wall hanger. Older Japanese factory guitars like these usually weren't built with flamenco geometry, no matter what the ad copy may have said. Most often they were built exactly the same as the classical models but made with different veneers on the outside of the plywood backs and sides and maybe a little change in decoration. The bridges and action were way too high and the neck angles incorrect even when they were new and years of settling in, necks pulling up or warping from tension, etc. haven't helped much.
Should you or anyone else attempt to remove the neck, be forewarned that some of those Asian glues can be very tenacious. It may even be attached with epoxy. I'd also suggest going to Frank Ford's excellent website www.frets.com and read his photo-illustrated articles on neck resetting and straightening.
Attempting to straighten the neck with weights isn't going to do a damn thing, at least not anything that will last more than a few minutes once the strings are brought up to tension.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 9 2012 20:09:49
 
Sr. Martins

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RE: Fixing action on old guitar? (in reply to estebanana) 
@estebanana

From the bridge pic, even if he doesnt lower the saddle, he has to remove wood from the back of the saddle slot, right? The strings are sitting on it..
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 9 2012 20:33:25

C. Vega

 

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[Deleted] 
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 9 2012 20:38:07
 
Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005
 

RE: Fixing action on old guitar? (in reply to britguy) 
quote:

No wonder I hid the thing away in a closet for forty years. . .


hahhaaa That was a really good one. =D

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 9 2012 21:37:36
 
jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
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RE: Fixing action on old guitar? (in reply to estebanana) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

There are two basic ways to go about it. The brutal way is to use a router to remove the binding to the depth of the back plate around around the perimeter of the guitar and then slip a razor saw under the back plate and cut it free from the lining around the rim. Then you take a hot knife and work it under the heel to unpaste the back from the heel. Very difficult job.


No, the "brutal way" to remove a back is with a hammer. I've done that too.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 9 2012 22:39:29
 
estebanana

Posts: 9367
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RE: Fixing action on old guitar? (in reply to Sr. Martins) 
quote:

From the bridge pic, even if he doesnt lower the saddle, he has to remove wood from the back of the saddle slot, right? The strings are sitting on it..


Yeah likely. Easy job. Sharp chisel.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 9 2012 22:53:43
 
Sr. Martins

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RE: Fixing action on old guitar? (in reply to estebanana) 
Btw, one more question for you estebanana...

On a tie block where the holes are high because of wearing, can I remove wood from the top of the tie block until I see all six holes and then glue a piece of bone?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 9 2012 22:56:19
 
estebanana

Posts: 9367
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RE: Fixing action on old guitar? (in reply to C. Vega) 
quote:

It's most likely a dovetail neck-to-body joint or possibly even a doweled butt joint.


Perhaps perhaps not, the Nagoya guitar makers often did straight ahead Spanish construction. But if it is a dove tail it's resettable. If the neck was butt jointed it would have popped off by now.

And a dovetail would be preferable to a Spanish heel for doing a neck reset. Cheaper too.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 9 2012 22:57:53

C. Vega

 

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RE: Fixing action on old guitar? (in reply to estebanana) 
I agree wholeheartedly that a dovetailed joint would be much easier to reset...if you can get that Japanese glue to let go.

You have to be careful when trying to determine how necks are joined to bodies on Japanese production line classical and flamenco guitars. They may have a visible foot on the inside but it's usually not integral with the neck and heel as in Spanish construction. Even some of the higher end manufacturers like Asturias make their guitars with an internal block with a foot but the neck and heel are separate and attached to it with a doweled butt joint. Done properly and with the right adhesive they are remarkably strong.
Don't automatically assume that just because you see a foot inside that it's a real Spanish-style neck.
I know one highly respected American maker, whose name I won't mention, who has been butt-joining his necks for years with no joint reinforcement of any kind. No dowels, no splines, no nothing except a damn good fit and glue. He has yet to have a neck detach.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 9 2012 23:41:10
 
estebanana

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RE: Fixing action on old guitar? (in reply to C. Vega) 
quote:

No dowels, no splines, no nothing except a damn good fit and glue. He has yet to have a neck detach.


Just keep waiting.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 10 2012 0:40:09
 
britguy

Posts: 712
Joined: Dec. 26 2010
From: Ontario, Canada

RE: Fixing action on old guitar? (in reply to estebanana) 
quote:

First check the neck relief locally between first and 12 frets before you write it off. Hold the string down at the first fret with left hand index finger and then put right pinky on string at 12th fret. Reach with your right index to the middle of the fret board and tap the top of the string you are holding down.


Stephen:

I'm not entirely clear on the tapping part of this procedure. Why do I need to "tap" the top of the string. Can I not just sight the clearance (' a playing card thickness').

And regarding the 'heel' on this guitar. It appears to be a square block of wood about 4 inches wide by about an inch thick, with the corners chamfered off. Does that give you any indication as to how the neck is mated to the body?

I have neither the skills nor ambition to do some of the things you have suggested, but I may cast around to see if I can find some local luthier who may be capable of doing them.

As Vega pointed out; the guitar is probably not worth the trouble and expense. But I've had it for a long time, and the sound is pretty good. So if I can find the right craftsman I may just want to give it a go.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 12 2012 13:40:36

C. Vega

 

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RE: Fixing action on old guitar? (in reply to estebanana) 
The "heel" is on the outside of the guitar....the curved and somewhat pointy part that's attached to the neck shaft. It's occasionally made from the same piece of wood as the neck but usually not. What you're referring to is called the neck block and although the shape may vary a little it's typical of Asian production line instruments. It's really impossible to tell just by looking but my guess is that it's a doweled butt joint attaching the neck and heel to the guitar body which was pretty common during the period your guitar was built.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 12 2012 19:28:03

C. Vega

 

Posts: 379
Joined: Jan. 16 2004
 

RE: Fixing action on old guitar? (in reply to estebanana) 
If the neck is indeed bowed forward, one possibility for repair would be to refret it with fret wire that has an oversized tang (the part that's imbedded in the fingerboard) which would force the neck into a straighter plane.
It might be possible to get away with just a partial refret, like perhaps frets 3-9, if you can find wire with the same crown height as the original wire. Using the oversized tang wire on the whole fingerboard might force the neck back too far creating a reverse bow so some fret slots mat need to be widened slightly to compensate. Using the oversized wire on the section of the fingerboard that's over the top would not make any difference in the warp.
Getting the warp out will at least get you started in the right direction.

Have fun.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 13 2012 21:49:23
 
britguy

Posts: 712
Joined: Dec. 26 2010
From: Ontario, Canada

RE: Fixing action on old guitar? (in reply to C. Vega) 
quote:

refret it with fret wire that has an oversized tang


Thanks Vega. I believe one of the other professional luthiers suggested this earlier. Dont remember who, but I recall it was included with other advice.

Unless I can find a competent local luthier to take look at the guitar, I think I may just leave it as it is and try to adjust my playing to suit the higher action.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 13 2012 22:08:31
 
estebanana

Posts: 9367
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RE: Fixing action on old guitar? (in reply to estebanana) 
I mentioned compression fretting the neck. I tap on the strings sometimes over the fingerboard just to make sure I have clearance. I like to work tactile as well as purely visual. Just habits.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 13 2012 22:44:24
 
tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012
 

RE: Fixing action on old guitar? (in reply to estebanana) 
I have run into a similar issue. What would be the method to see if the neck has moved forward due to string tension? Is there a standard height when one lays a straightedge on the frets and looks at the gap between the straightedge and the top?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 17 2012 14:25:54
 
estebanana

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RE: Fixing action on old guitar? (in reply to estebanana) 
Read back through the posts on the first page.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 17 2012 17:56:12
 
tele

Posts: 1464
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RE: Fixing action on old guitar? (in reply to estebanana) 
Estebana: Yes I've read all the posts but I didn't see any mention of proper method to seeing if the complete neck has been moved forward by the string tension.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 17 2012 18:04:25
 
Sr. Martins

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RE: Fixing action on old guitar? (in reply to tele) 
quote:

proper method to seeing if the complete neck has been moved forward by the string tension.


How would that happen? Arent you thinking about electric guitars?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 17 2012 18:23:55
 
tele

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RE: Fixing action on old guitar? (in reply to Sr. Martins) 
The guitar i'm asking about has cracks along the fretboard on both sides on the guitar top. I wonder if this could cause some movement in the neck, even when there is a brace underneath...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 17 2012 19:17:12
 
Sr. Martins

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RE: Fixing action on old guitar? (in reply to tele) 
Is the wood really cracked or just the finish? Put your fingers inside and feel if there are real wood cracks.

If so, there might have been an accident with that guitar. That part you're refering to is not even neck anymore, only fingerboard.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 17 2012 19:49:37
 
tele

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RE: Fixing action on old guitar? (in reply to Sr. Martins) 
Do you think it can be caused by accident?

It's like this on both sides and it goes through the wood(web picture):


The cracks have been there for several years even without repair and basically the fingerboard is supported by the brace.

I was thinking it was a cause of too dry weather combined with the pull of strings?

If it would be due to accident shouldn't the heel of the neck also have cracks?

Is there a method to see if it's caused by accident or dry weather?

It's a guitar I would like to buy but if it is due to accident I really don't know.

Please advice as I don't want to waste money I don't have.

THANKS!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 17 2012 20:11:14
 
estebanana

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RE: Fixing action on old guitar? (in reply to estebanana) 
Is that a guitar? or something else?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 17 2012 20:15:57
 
tele

Posts: 1464
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RE: Fixing action on old guitar? (in reply to estebanana) 
sorry the picture is from the web just to demonstrate the location and nature of the crack(s). It's antonio raya pardo flamenco negra guitar.
Here's better example what the cracks are like(sorry no pics of the guitar in question):
http://www.12fret.com/wordpress/wp-content/gallery/ramirez-2a-pro-flamenco-blanca-1977/ramirez-2a-pro-flamenco-blanca-1977-heel-1.jpg


I guess it isn't the worst possible not fixable problem, but how can I check that it doesn't effect the action of the guitar and if it's due to accident or dryness?

The guitar has cracks sized like in the picture above but the cracks are not straight lines like in the pic but more like several short lines not in perfect line

One sign of the guitar having experienced dryness is one crack in the braz rosewood back, but it still doesn't let me know if the top cracks are due to accident or dryness...

If I decide to buy the guitar what would be the best way to fix the problem? I was thinking couple of square cleats on both sides and some superglue on top?

I'm sure it's nothing that can't be fixed but I would like to make sure that it hasn't affected the neck angle or anything else thats difficult to repair, so what would be the best method to check?


thanks!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 17 2012 20:25:19
 
Jeff Highland

 

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From: Caves Beach Australia

RE: Fixing action on old guitar? (in reply to estebanana) 
You can generally tell if there has been movement if the rosette, soundhole edge or binding show an abrupt step.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 17 2012 20:53:42
 
Sr. Martins

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RE: Fixing action on old guitar? (in reply to tele) 
Sometimes what seems like a crack on the wood is just at the finish level with a thin layer of wood but the wood itself isnt cracked.

Anyway, I wouldnt buy an instrument whose integrity would concern me forever.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 17 2012 21:14:49
 
tele

Posts: 1464
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RE: Fixing action on old guitar? (in reply to Jeff Highland) 
quote:


You can generally tell if there has been movement if the rosette, soundhole edge or binding show an abrupt step.


What do you mean by abrupt step?

There's no crack on soundhole edge or binding, but
The bottom side crack goes to the rosette and obviously as the rosette can't crack in straight line it goes along the little wooden pieces of the rosette.

"Anyway, I wouldnt buy an instrument whose integrity would concern me forever."

I agree but isn't the integrity restored by appropriate repair?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 17 2012 21:23:01
 
Jeff Highland

 

Posts: 401
Joined: Mar. 5 2010
From: Caves Beach Australia

RE: Fixing action on old guitar? (in reply to estebanana) 
The soundhole and rosette are round. if the neck had moved along the crack line , the the neck will be displaced into the soundhole and you will see a step or discontinuity there or in the rosette or binding
For a really bad example
http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Luthier/Technique/Guitar/Structural/Cracks/D45FBTopCrack/d45fbtopcrack.html
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 17 2012 22:28:51
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