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Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

Stepping Stones of Islamic Spain 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01lh96x

BBC Radio 4
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 5 2012 12:43:01
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Stepping Stones of Islamic Spain (in reply to Ron.M

Thanks Ron!! I was looking for this but didn't want to bug you.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 5 2012 14:05:52
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Stepping Stones of Islamic Spain (in reply to Ron.M

That was super fascinating! Thanks again for posting that, good flamenco spread through it. I like the British weather report. "Might see sun, probably mostly rain, maybe even thunder." Isn't that the weather out there everyday?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 5 2012 18:21:07
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3301
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Stepping Stones of Islamic Spain (in reply to Ron.M

Thanks, Ron!

For anyone interested in reading about the Islamic period in Spain, I think the best work I have come across is "The Ornament of the World," by Maria Rosa Menocal. This book chronicles the tolerant culture of Islamic Spain, particularly Al Andalus, where Christians, Jews, and Muslims lived together in comparative harmony. Al Andalus's tolerant culture set it apart from the intolerance one found in both Christian Europe and the Muslim Arab World. A great work of history and culture about a special time and place.

Cheers,

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 5 2012 18:22:22
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3324
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Stepping Stones of Islamic Spain (in reply to BarkellWH

quote:

I think the best work I have come across is "The Ornament of the World," by Maria Rosa Menocal. This book chronicles the tolerant culture of Islamic Spain, particularly Al Andalus


i enjoyed reading that book too. I think what is most interesting is her theories about the influence of Islamic Spain/Al Andalus on European culture across the porous and shifting frontiers during the long slow process of the Reconquista.

As for tolerance, it's not simply a case of Islamic Spain = tolerance. For sure in many respects Islamic Spain was more advanced than the rest of Europe, and in some ways more tolerant. But this varied through the different eras of Islamic rule, from the Caliphate to the Tarifa states and afterwards things got less tolerant. And there were still sometimes pogroms against Jews (eg.in Granada in the 11th Century), and both Jews and Christians were subject to higher taxes etc.

Have you also read Richard Fletcher's Moorish Spain?

And btw "Al Andalus" is not the same as modern Andalucia; it in fact meant the same thing as Islamic Spain, so at it's greatest extent "Al Andalus" covered almost the entire peninsula, and at the end it was just the province/kingdom of Granada.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 6 2012 13:44:29
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3301
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Stepping Stones of Islamic Spain (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

As for tolerance, it's not simply a case of Islamic Spain = tolerance. For sure in many respects Islamic Spain was more advanced than the rest of Europe, and in some ways more tolerant. But this varied through the different eras of Islamic rule, from the Caliphate to the Tarifa states and afterwards things got less tolerant. And there were still sometimes pogroms against Jews (eg.in Granada in the 11th Century), and both Jews and Christians were subject to higher taxes etc.

Have you also read Richard Fletcher's Moorish Spain?

And btw "Al Andalus" is not the same as modern Andalucia; it in fact meant the same thing as Islamic Spain, so at it's greatest extent "Al Andalus" covered almost the entire peninsula, and at the end it was just the province/kingdom of Granada.


Good points, Mark. I did not want to get too detailed, but to expand on your point about tolerance. During the period of the Islamic conquests, Christians and Jews were protected as "people of the book" and were known as "dhimmi." Nevertheless, they had to pay a special tax and were restricted from engaging in certain activities. They could not ride a horse, carry a sword, hold high office, etc. In other words, they were pretty much second class citizens. That, however, was a better fate than others received: either converting to Islam or being put to the sword. And, as you point out, that tolerance did not last as subsequent, more hard-line Islamists took over.

Nevertheless, while I think that Islamic tolerance in Al Andalus is sometimes over-rated, it was a pretty good bet, given the standards of the times.

Cheers,

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 6 2012 19:38:58
 
prd1

 

Posts: 206
Joined: Jul. 11 2007
 

RE: Stepping Stones of Islamic Spain (in reply to BarkellWH

30 mins of listening to portillo on a voluntary basis - please don't tell my dad!

_____________________________

Those who danced were thought to be quite insane by those who could not hear the music - Angela Monet
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 6 2012 20:34:56
 
kudo

Posts: 2064
Joined: Sep. 3 2009
 

RE: Stepping Stones of Islamic Spain (in reply to Ron.M

quote:

others received: either converting to Islam or being put to the sword. And, as you point out, that tolerance did not last as subsequent, more hard-line Islamists took over.

Where's your reference on this?? This is straight up obvious big lie that they fed into you !!

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 7 2012 1:19:09
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3301
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Stepping Stones of Islamic Spain (in reply to kudo

quote:

Where's your reference on this?? This is straight up obvious big lie that they fed into you !!


Read any history of the Muslim conquests, from the initial conquest of the Near East (where lands were taken from the Byzantine Empire), to the Muslim advance West and conquest of Egypt, Sicily, parts of Italy, North Africa, and Spain. The Dhimmi, or "People of the Book" (Arabic: Ahl al-Kitab) were treated with tolerance (although still treated as second class citizens), while those who were not "People of the Book" were dealt with harshly and given the choice of conversion or death. Of course, most converted in order to avoid the alternative (although in many cases it was a "conversion of convenience").

Spain under Islam, particularly under the Caliphate of Cordoba, was the most tolerant of all. The period of tolerance in Spain (Al Andalus) has been referred to as the "convivencia." That changed under the rise of the Almohades, who imposed an extremely harsh version of Islam on Al Andalus. Under the Almohades, there were even massacres of "People of the Book." For example, in December 1066, there was a massacre of 4,000 Jews in Granada, an event that the historian Walter Laqueur has called a pogrom. It apparently was precipitated by an ode that referred to Jews as "apes," a reference to the Qur'anic verse that allegedly refers to Jews as "apes" and "pigs."

For references on Arab and Islamic history, I suggest Bernard Lewis, Walter Laqueur, and Albert Hourani, but there are many other fine historians from which to choose.

Cheers,

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 7 2012 3:12:39
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3324
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Stepping Stones of Islamic Spain (in reply to BarkellWH

quote:

while I think that Islamic tolerance in Al Andalus is sometimes over-rated, it was a pretty good bet, given the standards of the times.


yeah, agreed.

i think people who don't know much about it pick up on the tolerance thing and just sort of run with it - very simplified as you obviously know well.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 7 2012 13:28:57
 
terry70

 

Posts: 26
Joined: Mar. 28 2005
 

RE: Stepping Stones of Islamic Spain (in reply to kudo

Kudo,
Tell us about this lie, because I think these ideas of the level of tolerance in Islamic Spain which are being discussed here are well known and documented by anyone who studies this history.

...or maybe you are joking
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 7 2012 14:52:33
 
kudo

 

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Joined: Sep. 3 2009
 

[Deleted] 

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Aug. 8 2012 19:26:51
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 8 2012 8:16:47
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3301
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Stepping Stones of Islamic Spain (in reply to kudo

It is impossible to have a serious discussion in the face of such a shrill, unhinged diatribe. You reveal a lot about yourself in paragraph 2, when you refer to all who do not accept Islam, "especially Christians and Jews," as "unbelievers" (infidels). Unfortunately, those who are biased against Islam, and know little about it, will have their belief further confirmed by your shrill rant. Infidels indeed!

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 8 2012 8:54:13
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: Stepping Stones of Islamic Spain (in reply to BarkellWH

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
Unfortunately, those who are biased against Islam, and know little about it, will have their belief further confirmed by your shrill rant. Infidels indeed!


This sentence is wrong since those who are "biased against islam" in the first place can pick whatever arbitrary aspect they want as a so called confirmation. Besides being wrong it is also mean to blame the victims of being targeted by whatever biased theory. If anything then the producers of such theory are to blame. Combining this with your assumption in another thread that poor people would have be to blamed themselves for their poverty, i come to the conclusion that what you aspire to be a "serious discussion" is nothing but cynicism on your part.

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Фламенко
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 8 2012 12:19:33
 
Munin

 

Posts: 595
Joined: Sep. 30 2008
From: Hong Kong

RE: Stepping Stones of Islamic Spain (in reply to Ron.M

Can't we just all agree that religion is **** no matter what name you put on it?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 8 2012 12:34:31
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: Stepping Stones of Islamic Spain (in reply to Munin

More importantly to agree on an opinion would be to agree on the reasons as to why this or that opinion is right. On a more detailed look it would reveal very divergent reasons why people think "religion is ****" and among those wrong ones.

_____________________________

Фламенко
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 8 2012 13:17:42
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Stepping Stones of Islamic Spain (in reply to Ron.M

Thank god I'm an atheist!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 8 2012 13:32:03
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13292
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Stepping Stones of Islamic Spain (in reply to kudo

quote:

ofcourse whatever I say, and write will never be accepted! I WILL NOT respond to any reply to my post! you can say whatever you want! call me whatever you want!


darn You win then. Man, every christian knows the crusades were fuked up. Mulims, Christians, all the rest have done the most fuked up **** in the name of "god". What a mess. Which set of "lies" you want to believe is your choice. Let go of your hate or you will suffer.

Ricardo

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 8 2012 15:00:47
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3301
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Stepping Stones of Islamic Spain (in reply to XXX

quote:

This sentence is wrong since those who are "biased against islam" in the first place can pick whatever arbitrary aspect they want as a so called confirmation. Besides being wrong it is also mean to blame the victims of being targeted by whatever biased theory. If anything then the producers of such theory are to blame. Combining this with your assumption in another thread that poor people would have be to blamed themselves for their poverty, i come to the conclusion that what you aspire to be a "serious discussion" is nothing but cynicism on your part.


As usual, Deniz, you get it wrong again. Those who are biased against Islam may be able to"pick whatever arbitrary aspect they want as a so-called confirmation," but Kudo's disgusting, shrill rant against "Christians and Jews" and "unbelievers" will provide them with one more point of confirmation in their belief.

I challenge you to point out my quote that "poor people woould have to be blamed themselves for their poverty." You will be unable to meet that challenge, because I never said such nonsense. I stated that many people's financial and economic condition is due to their own irresponsible choices and actions; they don't save for today in order to have more tomorrow; they want instant gratification. I did not say "most" people, and I did not say all "poor people" have themselves to blame for their condition.

You obviously think you cannot win a debate without falsifying statements others have made in order to appear as if you are making the rational argument. You have been called out on your falsification of my previous statements. I suggest that if you want to be taken seriously, you cease setting up false "straw men" and meet the challenge of debate based on the merits of your own arguments.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 8 2012 19:21:29
 
Arash

Posts: 4462
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Stepping Stones of Islamic Spain (in reply to Ron.M

at the end of the day,we all sh!t brown and bleed red.
so let go of the hatred and intolerance (be it towards muslims, christians, atheists, or flamencologists). people shouldn't care about anything others do, as long as no harm is done to others.

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 8 2012 21:29:13
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Stepping Stones of Islamic Spain (in reply to Ron.M

I sh!t red and bleed brown, should I see a doctor?

_____________________________

\m/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 8 2012 22:00:42
 
Arash

Posts: 4462
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Stepping Stones of Islamic Spain (in reply to Leñador

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lenador

I sh!t red and bleed brown, should I see a doctor?


hahaha, you crack me up Lenador with your comments, your so funny

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 8 2012 22:05:05
 
Doitsujin

Posts: 5063
Joined: Apr. 10 2005
 

RE: Stepping Stones of Islamic Spain (in reply to Ron.M

Boring thread. Religion..... always ends up in word fights. It doesnt make any sense to talk about religion at all. That means I'm out of conversation.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 8 2012 22:11:29
 
Arash

Posts: 4462
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Stepping Stones of Islamic Spain (in reply to Doitsujin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Doitsujin

Boring thread. Religion..... always ends up in word fights.


Yep, have seen some better fights here :D
We need to throw some world politics a la gaza, israel, syria, US imperialism , in the mix and then we can have some real fun incl. popcorn.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 8 2012 22:50:26
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Stepping Stones of Islamic Spain (in reply to Ron.M

quote:

hahaha, you crack me up Lenador with your comments, your so funny


Mucho garcias! If your not pretty you gotta be funny.

_____________________________

\m/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 8 2012 23:11:02
 
chester

Posts: 842
Joined: Oct. 29 2010
 

RE: Stepping Stones of Islamic Spain (in reply to Ron.M

Wait!! What about the war on Christmas? Who won?

Islam may be a religion of peace, unfortunately we are a species of war....
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 9 2012 0:44:31
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3301
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Stepping Stones of Islamic Spain (in reply to Doitsujin

Actually, this thread was a reasonable discussion of how Al-Andalus was a relatively tolerant society under Islam for much of its history (given the standards of the time), although that did change. The thread then took a rather violent turn for the worse when a Foro member detonated a rhetorical bomb, blaming everyone from Christians, Jews, and "Unbelievers" to Historians, past and present, for every perceived slight and insult, real or imagined, he apparently thinks has occurred. I note, however, that he has since deleted his post and it has been moved to the Recycle Bin, where such bile and hate-filled rhetoric belongs.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 9 2012 2:00:29
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Stepping Stones of Islamic Spain (in reply to Ron.M

I think the thread was about the BBC4 thing on Al-Andalus and it's affects on modern day Andalusia. I listened to it, it was mostly about the architecture. I don't remember anything about caliph policies and what not. I guess as all threads seem to do it took it's own direction which is fine by me but it does seem to have ruffled feathers so I felt some immature comments were due to lighten it up. I'd post more but I gotta go drop a deuce.

_____________________________

\m/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 9 2012 3:12:04
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3301
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Stepping Stones of Islamic Spain (in reply to Leñador

quote:

I guess as all threads seem to do it took it's own direction


Threads often go off in directions not anticipated at the beginning. But that is what makes for an interesting conversation. One thing leads to another, and someone has a thought that sends it off in another direction, which brings in others with ideas. Just as in face-to-face conversations and discussions, threads should reflect rational, reasonable temperments, even when there are disagreements. Participants should not take disagreements personally, and they certainly should not get wrapped around the axle and start detonating rhetorical bombs with hate-filled shrapnel flying in all directions.

Cheers,

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 9 2012 3:53:43
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3206
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Stepping Stones of Islamic Spain (in reply to BarkellWH

In the Foro I have lamented the passing of my grandfather's era when gentlemen did not discuss politics or religion with strangers.

I heard a few stories from him and from my great-uncles of such talk leading to duels, and in a couple of cases, fatalities. All these men were at least 18 years old by the end of the 19th century, a couple of them were born before the beginning of the Civil War in 1860.

Nowadays people can safely say things on the internet that could well have gotten them killed in 1890. Emotions still can be utterly uncontrollable on these subjects. Politics and religion still kill people, though usually in a less personal context than in 19th century American duels.

This says something about human behavior, and about both politics and religion.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 9 2012 5:23:40
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