Foro Flamenco


Posts Since Last Visit | Advanced Search | Home | Register | Login

Today's Posts | Inbox | Profile | Our Rules | Contact Admin | Log Out



Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.

This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.

We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.

Update cookies preferences




Question about Diego del Morao falsetta   You are logged in as Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >>Discussions >>General >> Page: [1] 2    >   >>
Login
Message<< Newer Topic  Older Topic >>
 
turnermoran

Posts: 391
Joined: Feb. 6 2010
 

Question about Diego del Morao falsetta 

Hey guys - can someone confirm my suspicions or set me straight regarding a Diego falsetta?

Here's the YouTube link:




It's at 5:16

It appears to me that it starts on either the 1/2 beat following 12, or on 1, and it's a "bulerias in 6" falsetta, loaded with contra accents. I can't feel the normal "12" compas. And it feels like it has an extra 6 if you count it in 12.

I'm trying to transcribe it and it's killing me.

Any help would be appreciated.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 2 2012 0:43:42
 
Ricardo

Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Question about Diego del Morao f... (in reply to turnermoran

Couple things, for the singer he resolves on 9 then does not quite a full compas ends on 7. The falseta starts with a chord strummed AFTER 12 (between 12 and 1) but the acending bass line phrase is cut off a couple notes so that the two chords that move are between 4/5 and 5/6 so that the next bass line starts earlier after 7. So the chords lead the down beats (6, 12, the the last is leading 6) and the bass melody starts either 1.5 or 7.5....the fasleta WOULD BE cuadrao if he did a rasgueado remate instead of simply repeating the whole thing starting bass line from 7.5.

If you PRETEND he did one (7,8,9,10 rasgueado then lead the beat 12 with the SAME chord he did leading 6 in the actual falseta) or simply add it yourself, then it all works out in 12 cuz the repeat of the entire phrase culminates with the actual type of rasgueado I was talking about. If you must use this falseta and make it cuadrao that is in fact what you would have to do....although there are alternatives to filling that half compas other than just rasgueado.

Hope that helps.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 2 2012 13:11:19
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1790
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Question about Diego del Morao f... (in reply to turnermoran

Note that the second chord progression has 2 extra strokes:

first set of chords syncopic to 5 and 6 (between 4/5 and 5/6)
second set of chords syncopic to 11 (between 10/11) and on 12 with for AND after beat (and 12 and) (chord change at 12)

When you play the 3th base line for the second time, don't forget to add the extra base note to extent the melody to 6th beat.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 2 2012 19:05:04
 
Kevin

 

Posts: 294
Joined: Sep. 7 2008
 

RE: Question about Diego del Morao f... (in reply to turnermoran

Wow. Diego has gotten so good.

He taught this falseta in 2000 when he was just getting started in his career and it sat totally differently in the compas.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 2 2012 20:25:00
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1790
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Question about Diego del Morao f... (in reply to Kevin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kevin

Wow. Diego has gotten so good.

He taught this falseta in 2000 when he was just getting started in his career and it sat totally differently in the compas.



Do you have a recording of that alternative version, or a transcription or a reliable memory?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 2 2012 20:37:16
 
turnermoran

Posts: 391
Joined: Feb. 6 2010
 

RE: Question about Diego del Morao f... (in reply to Ricardo

Thanks guys! this is super helpful.

I took Diego's WS here in SF in March, and he taught the falsetta too. He didn't indicate compas, and there are no palmeros, so the reference to beats isn't there, but I'll upload that soon.

I also want to confirm that it sits in the same way as in the video I provided. He plays some compas after the falsetta, so one could figure it all out by working backwards
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 2 2012 21:39:13
 
turnermoran

Posts: 391
Joined: Feb. 6 2010
 

RE: Question about Diego del Morao f... (in reply to Ricardo

Ricardo - this makes me wonder a couple questions:

1) Diego and Cigala work together all the time. Would you guess that Cigala (and co.) have heard this enough that they just provide a pulse (palmas/percussion), let Diego play it, then they come in once he reestablishes the compas, not feeling a need to know the in's and out's of it as you described? Or do you think artists of this calibre understand exactly where all those hits are, and the fact that it's not cuadrado, and it has a half-compas in it, because Diego either broke it down for them at some point, or they just hear and understand it that quick with no explanation necessary?

2) to make it cuadrado, is that just practical advise for the average gringo? And average flamenco situations, where if you play it as is, people are going to get screwed up because that level of complication is something that requires a breakdown or rehearsal to be practically applied? especially here in the US?

Thanks!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 2 2012 21:46:03
 
turnermoran

Posts: 391
Joined: Feb. 6 2010
 

RE: Question about Diego del Morao f... (in reply to Erik van Goch

i uploaded something in the Audio/Uploads section.

This is Diego doing the falsetta slow in a workshop. I need to figure it out still if it's in the compas same as in the other example. (can you guys tell?)

There's also another upload of him playing the same thing from a 3rd performance
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 2 2012 22:25:51
 
Ricardo

Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Question about Diego del Morao f... (in reply to turnermoran

quote:

ORIGINAL: turnermoran

Ricardo - this makes me wonder a couple questions:

1) Diego and Cigala work together all the time. Would you guess that Cigala (and co.) have heard this enough that they just provide a pulse (palmas/percussion), let Diego play it, then they come in once he reestablishes the compas, not feeling a need to know the in's and out's of it as you described? Or do you think artists of this calibre understand exactly where all those hits are, and the fact that it's not cuadrado, and it has a half-compas in it, because Diego either broke it down for them at some point, or they just hear and understand it that quick with no explanation necessary?

2) to make it cuadrado, is that just practical advise for the average gringo? And average flamenco situations, where if you play it as is, people are going to get screwed up because that level of complication is something that requires a breakdown or rehearsal to be practically applied? especially here in the US?

Thanks!


1. Doesn't matter. Palmas just keeps 6 always unless remates happen. There is no way to tell from palmas alone the difference between beat 1 or beat 7..unless you are doing palmas wrong. Percussion is different and can be crossed and it all still works out as symmetry of 6's allows the superimposing of the "other" half compas feeling laid on top of the other. It's not about the country you live in or modern vs old style, but how well you understand compas of buleria period.

2. No. One needs to understand that it CAN be done or not, it is simply a matter of choice of phrasing. If I get a sense that the dancers/palmeros/cajon or whomever is not so experienced with compas, I might deliberately toss out some half compases to "educate" them quickly. The more common problem is bad tempo, getting lost when the guitar goes contra tiempo. If they catch on then everything gets less stiff and peformance or practice becomes more comfortable. It's not a big deal really. Some folks are so boxed in they CANT learn or catch half compases on the fly and this is a problem hopefully remedied sooner than later. Squaring off what were once half compas phrases simply demonstrates compas mastery equally as adding too or deleting from a cuadrao phrase to make it a half compas. IN the end you want the freedom with your fellow performers to not think at all about it and just play with feeling of groove and aire.

Ricardo

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 2 2012 22:43:15
 
turnermoran

Posts: 391
Joined: Feb. 6 2010
 

RE: Question about Diego del Morao f... (in reply to Ricardo

you de man Ricardo!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 2 2012 23:13:58
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1790
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Question about Diego del Morao f... (in reply to turnermoran

quote:

ORIGINAL: turnermoran

i uploaded something in the Audio/Uploads section.

This is Diego doing the falsetta slow in a workshop. I need to figure it out still if it's in the compas same as in the other example. (can you guys tell?)


[/quote

The melody in both versions is identical (starting after 1 and after 7) but he varies the location of the chords. In the slow version he plays them right on the beat (5>6 and 11>12) and in the live version above he plays them syncopated and with some extra strokes. It's basically the same meal spiced with some extra salt and pepper. It's al compatible. When he repeats the slow version he delays the 12 to an of beat and when he speed up things afterwards he alters there location again. Basically no two versions are exactly alike but in essence they are all the same.

Paco Pena tolt us that if you repeat a phrase you always have to vary little things like that. I know from experience that most of these chord strokes are played without thinking (you just fallow your instinct and your feet) and more often then not one is not able to reproduce them at a lower speed. On top Diego's rhythm isn't 100% metronome proof but seems to show little fluctuations every now and than which makes it pretty difficult to fallow.

The essence of this falseta is playing the melody in combination with the in between chord. How you time your chords is up to you, as long as you obey the compas (both in length and in essence).

Diego (being a Morao) probably feels the compas in pairs of beats. It would fit this falseta very well and makes timing relatively easy. But when i check this basic pulse with above version it doesn't seem to work. So either he feels it differently or one of us should do a better job (either him or me).

Feeling bulerias in 2 beat patterns means you tap the even beats with your feet. It often is the leading pulse when you play half compas

12-2-4-/6-8-10- or if you don't count

*-*-*-/*-*-*-

You simply feel patterns of 3 feet taps and with this pulse a half compas is just another link *-*-*- starting on 6 or on 12 just as you like it.

If your falseta ends on third dot it is the 10th beat, if it ends on 1th dot it's 6th beat, as simple as that.

Counting in 3 groups of 2 beats also helps you to time the melody. The second note of the melody falls on the 2th feet (2 or 8) so i don't time the first note of the melody but focus on the second note that match the second feet. That makes life much more easy. The last melody note fits the third feet (4 or 10) and the 2th chord fits the first feet of the next chain (12 or 6).

12-2-4/6-8-10

with 2 notes on a beat like here it fit's like this.

(12--) the 2 and than the 4 (and then the/ 6 (--) the 8 and than the 10 and than the

Your melody fits the "the 2 and then the 4" part (aka "the 8 and than the 10"part). In both cases you just feel "the feet and than the feet"

(12 - - ) THE 2 AND THAN THE 4 (and 5 and) /
6 (- -) THE 8 AND THAN THE 10 (and 11 and)/
12(- -) THE 2 AND THAN THE 4 AND THAN THE(6)

Last line ends sycopic to 6 the first time and the second time you add 1 extra note to extent it to 6

The chords are played in the "and 5 and 6" part(aka "and 11 and 12). If you play them on the beat they equal 5 and 6, if they are syncopated they equal the and in front of 5 and 6. In both cases the 6 and 12 are part of your foot taps and anobvious reference point for timing (it's either on your foot or in front (syncope) or (in the slower version) after (after beat).

In case of syncopation: *--THE, 2 AND THAN THE, 4 G7 (5) C7/(6)
In when On the beat : *--THE, 2 AND THAN THE, 4 (-) G7 (-) /C7

I recommend you to study with chords on 5-6-11-12 C7 fits 6, Bb7 fits 12 (both are the first feet of the 3 feet pattern,which also "opens" the falseta.

(12--) THE, 2 AND THAN THE, 4(-) G7 (-)/
C7(--) THE, 8 AND THAN THE, 10(-) F7 (-)/
Bb7(--)The, 2 AND THAN THE, 4 AND THAN THE/
(6)

If you time the second note of the melody on the second feet tap it invites you to give it a little more accent as well. Diego don't seem to do that (it's not obligatory) and don't seem to support my (and quite often his) puls very much. So i'm struggling with this one myself.

Like usual my interpretation is based on pattern recognition. Diego's falseta must start after 1 or 7 in order to end at 6 . Thats how i analyze things, but i can be dead wrong as well...sometimes.

In this case it feels a little bid like the Tomatito pattern Ricardo practices at 5:00. It starts at the same place and in that part of the Tomatito falseta Ricardo also adapts the 12-2-4-/6-8-10- pulse:







Paco de Lucia would probably count Diego's falseta like this : 12**3**6**9**

* are feet taps>>> give an extra accent on feet 8 and 10


On your last (third) post the falseta also seems (partly) compatible with the standard 3 beat pattern which always ends on 6th beat.

12--,3--/6--9--/12--/3--/6(-8-10-)>>>> *--*--/*--*--/*--*--/6-*-*-
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 3 2012 17:08:44
 
chester

Posts: 891
Joined: Oct. 29 2010
 

RE: Question about Diego del Morao f... (in reply to Erik van Goch

Hey Erik - I fixed that broken end-quote tag so your post will be easier to read.

At the risk of sounding like an ignorant fool, what's a cuadrado?

quote:

ORIGINAL: turnermoran

i uploaded something in the Audio/Uploads section.

This is Diego doing the falsetta slow in a workshop. I need to figure it out still if it's in the compas same as in the other example. (can you guys tell?)




The melody in both versions is identical (starting after 1 and after 7) but he varies the location of the chords. In the slow version he plays them right on the beat (5>6 and 11>12) and in the live version above he plays them syncopated and with some extra strokes. It's basically the same meal spiced with some extra salt and pepper. It's al compatible. When he repeats the slow version he delays the 12 to an of beat and when he speed up things afterwards he alters there location again. Basically no two versions are exactly alike but in essence they are all the same.

Paco Pena tolt us that if you repeat a phrase you always have to vary little things like that. I know from experience that most of these chord strokes are played without thinking (you just fallow your instinct and your feet) and more often then not one is not able to reproduce them at a lower speed. On top Diego's rhythm isn't 100% metronome proof but seems to show little fluctuations every now and than which makes it pretty difficult to fallow.

The essence of this falseta is playing the melody in combination with the in between chord. How you time your chords is up to you, as long as you obey the compas (both in length and in essence).

Diego (being a Morao) probably feels the compas in pairs of beats. It would fit this falseta very well and makes timing relatively easy. But when i check this basic pulse with above version it doesn't seem to work. So either he feels it differently or one of us should do a better job (either him or me).

Feeling bulerias in 2 beat patterns means you tap the even beats with your feet. It often is the leading pulse when you play half compas

12-2-4-/6-8-10- or if you don't count

*-*-*-/*-*-*-

You simply feel patterns of 3 feet taps and with this pulse a half compas is just another link *-*-*- starting on 6 or on 12 just as you like it.

If your falseta ends on third dot it is the 10th beat, if it ends on 1th dot it's 6th beat, as simple as that.

Counting in 3 groups of 2 beats also helps you to time the melody. The second note of the melody falls on the 2th feet (2 or 8) so i don't time the first note of the melody but focus on the second note that match the second feet. That makes life much more easy. The last melody note fits the third feet (4 or 10) and the 2th chord fits the first feet of the next chain (12 or 6).

12-2-4/6-8-10

with 2 notes on a beat like here it fit's like this.

(12--) the 2 and than the 4 (and then the/ 6 (--) the 8 and than the 10 and than the

Your melody fits the "the 2 and then the 4" part (aka "the 8 and than the 10"part). In both cases you just feel "the feet and than the feet"

(12 - - ) THE 2 AND THAN THE 4 (and 5 and) /
6 (- -) THE 8 AND THAN THE 10 (and 11 and)/
12(- -) THE 2 AND THAN THE 4 AND THAN THE(6)

Last line ends sycopic to 6 the first time and the second time you add 1 extra note to extent it to 6

The chords are played in the "and 5 and 6" part(aka "and 11 and 12). If you play them on the beat they equal 5 and 6, if they are syncopated they equal the and in front of 5 and 6. In both cases the 6 and 12 are part of your foot taps and anobvious reference point for timing (it's either on your foot or in front (syncope) or (in the slower version) after (after beat).

In case of syncopation: *--THE, 2 AND THAN THE, 4 G7 (5) C7/(6)
In when On the beat : *--THE, 2 AND THAN THE, 4 (-) G7 (-) /C7

I recommend you to study with chords on 5-6-11-12 C7 fits 6, Bb7 fits 12 (both are the first feet of the 3 feet pattern,which also "opens" the falseta.

(12--) THE, 2 AND THAN THE, 4(-) G7 (-)/
C7(--) THE, 8 AND THAN THE, 10(-) F7 (-)/
Bb7(--)The, 2 AND THAN THE, 4 AND THAN THE/
(6)

If you time the second note of the melody on the second feet tap it invites you to give it a little more accent as well. Diego don't seem to do that (it's not obligatory) and don't seem to support my (and quite often his) puls very much. So i'm struggling with this one myself.

Like usual my interpretation is based on pattern recognition. Diego's falseta must start after 1 or 7 in order to end at 6 . Thats how i analyze things, but i can be dead wrong as well...sometimes.

In this case it feels a little bid like the Tomatito pattern Ricardo practices at 5:00. It starts at the same place and in that part of the Tomatito falseta Ricardo also adapts the 12-2-4-/6-8-10- pulse:







Paco de Lucia would probably count Diego's falseta like this : 12**3**6**9**

* are feet taps>>> give an extra accent on feet 8 and 10


On your last (third) post the falseta also seems (partly) compatible with the standard 3 beat pattern which always ends on 6th beat.

12--,3--/6--9--/12--/3--/6(-8-10-)>>>> *--*--/*--*--/*--*--/6-*-*-
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 4 2012 6:28:34
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1790
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Question about Diego del Morao f... (in reply to chester

quote:

ORIGINAL: chester

Hey Erik -

At the risk of sounding like an ignorant fool, what's a cuadrado?

/quote]


In my opinion asking a question like that (or any question at all) is quite the opposite of sounding like an ignorant fool, not asking would be much more foolish. But i'm afraid you have to address that question to Ricardo because to be honest i haven't the faintest idea myself (i'm not so good in using all those official names). But i can make an educated guess.

The normal compas of Bulerias has accents on 12--3--6-8-10-.

You can divide it in two halve compasses: 12--3-- (2 pairs of 3 beats) and 6-8-10- (3 pairs of 2 beats)

Since both patterns cover 6 beats both halves of the compas can replace each other to fit the melody you play. So in stead of feeling the "natural" accents you can stick to a 2 beat or a 3 beat pattern over a longer period of time.


If you copy the first half you get 12--3--/6--9-- making a full compas again. You can make the chain as long as you want but the FINAL compas will always be a normal one with the melody ending on 6th beat.

12--3--/6--9--
12--3--/6(-8-10-)

If you copy the second half (6-8-10-) you get the pulse 12-2-4-/6-8-10- making a full compas ones again. If it is restricted to 2 compasses only you normally close the melody on the 6th beat of the second compas

12-2-4-/6-8-10-
12-2-4-/6(-8-10)

In both examples the (-8-10) part can be a series of ragueados heading for 10 (or a nice alternative).

i guess this short 2 compas roundup is called a cuadrao (4 half compasses).

If you play Diego's melody only once (rounding up after 6th beat) you have above pattern. Diego however repeats the melody. You could say that 2th part starts after 7, but you can also consider it to be an exact copy of the first set skipping half a compas in the process. How you count on (7 or 1) is a matter of personal preference and personally i quite often don't count at all.

The 12-2-4-/6-8-10/12-2-4-/6-8-10/ pattern can go on forever. In stead of counting you just feel <*-*-*-/*-*-*> or even single sets of <*-*-*-> (that's were half compasses com from).

Obviously a long chain of <*-*-*-> has to end as well...if the melody ends on the third feet it's 10, if it ends on the first feet it's 6, as simple as that.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 4 2012 8:30:41
 
xirdneH_imiJ

Posts: 1937
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton

RE: Question about Diego del Morao f... (in reply to turnermoran

here's a tab for you:

PDF

(for GP6)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 4 2012 13:11:24
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1790
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Question about Diego del Morao f... (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ

I'm afraid the whole falseta (except the very first colpe X) is shifted half a beat on that partiture. After the colpe (x on12th beat) the fallowing c should be right on 1, the G is the second half of 1 and the very important A# should be right on 2th beat of bulerias (which equals 3th beat in your notation)... speaking about A#, that should be written as Bb. If you annotate it in front of the line that mole (b) counts for every B you write later on, so in stead of writing A,A#,C,A#,A you can write ABCBA and with that Bb mole in front of the line everyone will play A,Bb,C,Bb,A automatically.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 4 2012 15:46:03
 
xirdneH_imiJ

Posts: 1937
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton

RE: Question about Diego del Morao f... (in reply to Erik van Goch

you should've listened against the palmas track that's also there, it's surely correct (even if 12 is after the line, not before - Faucher style)...about the individual notes, I can write tab, I have no clue about standard notation so, you're probably right, but I'll leave being anal to the theorists on the foro, I prefer to play and I tried helping out with this tab...

this foro has changed a lot......

(ps: the link to the gpx file is there, you're more than welcome to edit it and upload your version)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 4 2012 16:03:30
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1790
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Question about Diego del Morao f... (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ

I guess it's just like that famous drawing in which some see a beautiful young lady and others an old witch with a wart. The question remains who is seeing the young lady and who is seeing the old witch:-)

I have no idea how to download, edit and upload a gpx file. On top i would feel obligated to check and approve every single note, position and rhythmical nuance. I'm still not sure about a lot of things myself and fail both the time, the equipment and the lust to work it out on that level. On top i don't like/fully understand any of the 3 versions i know.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 4 2012 16:24:41
 
kudo

Posts: 2064
Joined: Sep. 3 2009
 

RE: Question about Diego del Morao f... (in reply to turnermoran

quote:

and approve every single note, position and rhythmical nuance.

,.....wtf??

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 4 2012 16:56:24
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1790
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Question about Diego del Morao f... (in reply to kudo

quote:

ORIGINAL: kudo

quote:

and approve every single note, position and rhythmical nuance.

,.....wtf??


....and the bindings off course....thanks for reminding :-)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 4 2012 19:01:21
 
Kevin

 

Posts: 294
Joined: Sep. 7 2008
 

RE: Question about Diego del Morao f... (in reply to turnermoran

I just reviewed the workshop from 2000. He actually plays A on beat 1 and the Remate is slightly different.

I take back what I said though. He was freaking amazin in 2000. Paco and Moraito falsetas but played his way. The workshop was a two-hour/two day affair with Antonio Moya rounding out the second hour.

Glad you posted this because I returned to this material. Bacan stuff as well. Probably the most valuable guitar-material workshop I have ever taken for the amount of material and the price.

Plus, there were only three of us.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 5 2012 6:18:16
 
koenie17

Posts: 438
Joined: Feb. 25 2011
From: España

RE: Question about Diego del Morao f... (in reply to Erik van Goch

quote:

you can write ABCBA and with that Bb mole in front of the line everyone will play A,Bb,C,Bb,A automatically.


That´s everone who knows how to read music. Doesn´t include me
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 5 2012 9:04:15
 
El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Question about Diego del Morao f... (in reply to chester

quote:

At the risk of sounding like an ignorant fool, what's a cuadrado?

cuadrado is just a way of saying to round something off , or rather square it up ...
like if your compas is missing a beat or 2 then it doesnt end on 12 , for example, you have to add a bit on to make it 'cuadrado'
squared off
to fit right

that kind of thing

_____________________________

Don't trust Atoms.....they make up everything.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 5 2012 10:27:54
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1790
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Question about Diego del Morao f... (in reply to koenie17

quote:

ORIGINAL: koenie17

quote:

you can write ABCBA and with that Bb mole in front of the line everyone will play A,Bb,C,Bb,A automatically.


That´s everone who knows how to read music. Doesn´t include me



All you have to know is that Bulerias in A phrygian has the tonal scale A Bb C D E F G A.
In fact the essence of this scale is the progression A-Bb-A (both in melody and in chord progression). Try to play yourself the second chord on second fret (B) in stead of first fret (Bb) and you will immediately hear something is wrong. The same happens when you play B in the melodies. One of the few places (if not the only) were B is in context with the A phrygian mode is the chord progression G>C (A>DM>G>C>F>Bb>A) were it is part of the G chord (GBD). Only there Bb is temporary altered in B (a so called alteration). In most other cases the occurence of B in the melody is an indication that you have changed key>>> C B A (3,2,0 on your a string) would indicate a modulation(change of key) to Am (ABCDEFGA) and if in stead the melody note B is part of a E7 chord (EG#BD) the melody progression d>c#>b>a (5,4,2,0 on your a string) tells you you have to change key to A-major (A,B,C#,D,E.F#.G#,A).

As soon as a singer sings CBA in A phrygian i know he changed to A-Minor
As soon as a singer sings DC#BA in A Phrygian he has changed to A-Major

In both cases my next chord will be E7 and not Bb since Bb would bring us back to A-Phrygian.

So you see playing a B in a Phrygian legally is not so easy and often an indication to chance key at the very next chord.

isn't it fun;-)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 5 2012 11:24:22
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1790
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Question about Diego del Morao f... (in reply to Kevin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kevin

I just reviewed the workshop from 2000. He actually plays A on beat 1 and the Remate is slightly different.





Question remains if he starts on the first half of beat 1 or on the second half. Both is possible. If you start OF beat -a,bc,de,f ends on first half of 4th beat. If instead you start ON the beat ab,cd,ef, ends on second half of 3th beat (basically a syncopic 4).

Since it is very difficult to hear the difference "out of the air" i copied the entrance of the melody in the next 2 chains who all seem to start of beat. But it is perfectly acceptable to start the first one ON beat and the others OF beat. You can replace one for the other in every link of the chain. If you start a chain on beat you have more time between the melody and the first chord and if you start it of beat you have more time between the second chord and the next melody. That's what i mean with rhythmical nuance.... many versions are correct but when i put them on paper for others to enjoy i want to honer Diego's interpretation. Personally i would just copy the idea and vary the nuances just to my likings. That would take me 2 minutes, working out the original timing for 100% would take me hours and wouldn't add anything special in my opinion. Diego varies the details in every version as well, i never heard him play this theme exactly the same way twice. That's what you could call the "improvisation" part of flamenco.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 5 2012 12:02:11
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1790
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Question about Diego del Morao f... (in reply to kudo

quote:

ORIGINAL: kudo

quote:

and approve every single note, position and rhythmical nuance.

,.....wtf??



Have a look at this:

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=206686&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=&tmode=1&smode=1&s=#206691
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 5 2012 14:46:08
 
Ricardo

Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Question about Diego del Morao f... (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ

quote:

ORIGINAL: xirdneH_imiJ

here's a tab for you:

http://www.tabsflamenco.com/tabs/Diego_del_Morao_-_Falsetita_por_Bulerias.pdf

http://www.tabsflamenco.com/tabs/Diego_del_Morao_-_Falsetita_por_Bulerias.gpx (for GP6)


Hmm, not so sure about the tabs nor what erik was saying. I don't slow it down just groove along... the first melody I feel THere is a chord AFTER 12 then the melody starts contra on C (3rd fret 5th string under barre 3) and goes up to F on 3rd fret 4th string and plays twice fast so starting 1.5 C-D-E-F-F...gm....c7....so timing &2&3&(4)&(5)&.....so count 6 is either silent or gets caught on the up stroke. Next phrase starts BEFORE 7 with G:
GABbCDEbEb....F7...Bb7.... timing this time is &7&8&9&(10)&(11)&...12 is a very marked UP stroke with thumb then the next phrase:
FGABbCDC#CBbAA chord...A up stroke.....repeat all from C note. Timing is
&1&2&3&4&5Aflick down(6)A up... so The chord is before 6 flicked down the another contra up stroke starts pattern over if you imagine 6 is actually beat 12.

The ending goes:
FGABbCDC#CCBbBbA....and thats counts &1 all the way till 6 on the A note.




_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 5 2012 16:43:24
 
koenie17

Posts: 438
Joined: Feb. 25 2011
From: España

RE: Question about Diego del Morao f... (in reply to Erik van Goch

Thanxx Eric, I do know my flamenco. I just don´t know how to read music.
I let the singer guide me. I think lot´s of flamencos don´t read any music,
I know some music theory, enough to get around.

Thanks for the explanation anyway. You seem to know your stuff.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 5 2012 17:33:52
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1790
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Question about Diego del Morao f... (in reply to koenie17

I was forced to learn the bloody stuff when i entered Rotterdam University of Music (better known as Paco Pena's University Flamenco corse). When i entered i couldn't name a single note on my guitar (except the open strings), nor any chord, nor a 3/4 or 4/4 rhythm let along read or write music. But i had exceptionally good ears and could ear play "anything" i liked. In pop music i could find the chords of most song instantly without knowing any of the songs. I met people who were very knowledgable in music theory but could not ear play a single song, not even bambalabamba. (C>F>G 1000X). I also met people who excelled in both ear play and musical theory. The best one i know happens to be my father who wrote over 1000 pages of flamenco scores, the very best in existence. Compared to him i know nothing. Written music is just like normal writing, it helps you to administrate your music. It also helps you to remember, order, check and understand complex structures in flamenco during ear play. My fathers handwritten scores show the notes, the rhythm, left and right hand fingering, interpretation and the relation of each and every single note in relation to each other and the compas. No printed score known to me comes even close, nor in flamenco, nor in any other music. He also excels in classical guitar and early music of the baroque and renaissance. Paco Serrano had a great time when my father showed him al the old instruments and demonstrated the link between them and (early) flamenco, both in technique and in music.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 5 2012 18:36:39
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1790
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Question about Diego del Morao f... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo


Hmm, not so sure about the tabs nor what erik was saying.





Your post is in compas but seems to be based on other recordings than the ones known to me. Based on the broke up version posted elsewhere i tent to believe he is playing something like this:

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=206463&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=&tmode=&smode=&s=#206570


* is beat 1

chords on 5,6,11,12



--------------------------------3-------3---------------------------------------1-------(1)------
--------------------------------3-------5---------------------------------------1--------3-------
--------------------------------4-------3---------------------------------------2--------1-------
------------------------3--x---3---x---5--x---x----------------------1---x---1---x----3---x--
*---------3---5--7------------5-------3------------------1--3--5------------3--------1-------
---5---6-----------------------3-------x----------3---5-----------------------1-----------------
x and 2 and 3 and 4 .........5........6.........x.and 8 and 9 and 10.......11........12




-----------------------------------------(0)--
-----------------------------------------(1)--
-----------------------------------------(1)-- (a is syncopic 6, chord is of beat 6)
-----------------------------------------(1)--
---------------1--3--4~3---1--0--x--(0)---
x--1--3--5------------------------------------
x and 2 and 3 and 4 and 5 and 6 and




second time:

-----------------1--3--4~3--3~1---0--
x----1--3--5------------------------------- and round up to 10

x . and 2 and 3 and 4 and 5 and 6



The melody seems to be quite consistent (starting with an of beat after 1 and 7) but he frequently varies the location of the chords. I put them on 5-6 and 11-12 (like he does in the broke up version). Up tempo he plays them on top, before (syncopic) or after (of beat) these locations, on al 3 places (the version with Cigala sounds like contra 5 contra 6 contra 11 and a triple one covering "and 12 and" with the accent and chord change on 12. The broke up version is straight on 5,6,11 and 12 except for the second time were he varies the 12 by playing it of beat (with a soft preceding up stoke on 12). When he speed up al contra's come back again. He never plays it the same way twice.

All melodies are played in half barre (3th position,1th position) so the last melody note can overlap the chord. The third chain can be played in half barre or with an open a string, just to your likings. The first line can be presided by some extra strokes or notes, either in your head, with tempered strings or with real notes.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 5 2012 20:40:32
 
Ricardo

Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Question about Diego del Morao f... (in reply to Erik van Goch

quote:

Your post is in compas but seems to be based on other recordings than the ones known to me.


Ok man, well, check the top of THIS thread...thats the version I'm going off of...thought that was the falseta in question.


Ricardo

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 5 2012 21:00:22
Page:   [1] 2    >   >>
All Forums >>Discussions >>General >> Page: [1] 2    >   >>
Jump to:

New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET

0.125 secs.