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RE: Question about Diego del Morao f... (in reply to Ricardo)
Like i said before, i don't fully grasp this falseta yet myself. After counting for 20 years i don't really count anymore but rather trust on experience, pattern recognition, groove or however you wanne call it. In these case my instincts give me some opposite and confusing hint's. When i listen to the opening it very much sound it should drop on 10 rather than on 2:
a b c d e f the 10 and than the 12
In that case you can for instance play to beat 8 of the next compas (and use 10 as a bridge to go to normal compas) or (with other melodies) to 12 itself being it's own bridge, like this famous Tomatito falseta.
* equals 9 so melody drops at 10 "the,10 and to the, 12 --------------------------------------------5--7---7---6~7---5
The last 1 drops on 12 and continues in the normal pulse 12-3-6-8-10 (the falseta above is played with the pulse and10/12-2-4-/6-8-10/12)
Dropping it at 10 would be it's normal grove as i know it. However Diego's falseta has an ending as well and that ending is a clear 6! And when i count back from 6 to the first notes i come to the conclusion it has to drop on 2 in order to make sense (with the melody i choose). So i understand the falseta intellectually but not by hart, i still want to drop at 10.
The trick will be to find myself a preceding compas that ends on 10 and somehow invites Diego's falseta to fallow. One could also drop it at 8 (which equals 2 in half compas).
After studying the bloody thing again and again in various recordings (that keep changing interpretation depending on the speed and the mood of the moment) i can conclude that he varies between two rhythmical variations, 1 ON beat and 1 OF beat.
The on beat variation you find in above score, the of beat version is the one i posted on previous page..
When i practice it slowly i tap every beat with my feet. But at normal speed i prefer to count this falseta in a two-beat pattern counting the odd beats only: 12-2-4-/6-8-10/12-2-4/6-8-10- etc.
In practice this feels as a chain of 3 feet taps ***/***/***/***
In general, as long as you can feel a full compas in the melody you link those chains in pairs. 12**/6**/...... if things are less clear you can count in single chains or half compas /?**/.
One of the big advantages of (temporary) counting a 2-beat pattern (or a 3 beat pattern when that fits the melody) is that you won't get lost so easy ....if a falseta ends on first dot it's 6 and you have two dots left for a remate to 10. If a falseta ends on 3th dot you already are on 10. Another advantage is that it makes it much more easy to drop a falseta. The ON and OF beat variation are shifted half a beat in the compas so demands a "different" timing. This falseta my feet counts the odd beasts only and in general the closest feet tap is my reference point to drop a note. The OF beat variation starts just in front of my 2th feet and in fact i don't time the first note of the melody but focus on the second one that drops on 2th feet.
Of beat: * ........and * and to the * (ends right on your 3th feet) On beat: *- and the * and to the(*) (ends syncopic before your 3th feet)
In the ON beat variation it is the 3th note that drops on 2. In this case however you can drop the falseta after first feet tap (12) which is closer in time than the 2th feet tap (2).
The ON beat variation is annotated in above link. In that score my notation is presided by 2 extra notes representing a colpe at 12 and 1 extra note on 12,5..... sometimes he plays them, some times not.
The extra note (3) is probably an upstroke of the thump hitting the A string on it's way to the E string. It's not part of the melody it self, but it is part of the groove and it might not be a bad idea to feel this extra note in your head at every on beat chain you add (in general i feel a lot of rhythmic in-betweens in my head to guide my music).
The ON beat variation you can find in above link. When i first saw it i just studied the slow OF beat variation and i was very sceptic about the rhythmic internal structures (especially the 3th and 6th chain that seemed to be totally misplaced compared to what i considered "normal compas behaviour). But wisdom comes with the years and i must conclude that Diego indeed plays the on beat variation on a regular base , including the last chain of his up tempo variations. So xirdneH_imiJ did an excellent job after all and above link very well represent the structure of the ON BEAT variation, both in melody as in chord drops. The alternative OF BEAT variation you can find on page 1 with my typed score.
In real live Diego varies his rhythm and he doesn't restrict to one version or the other ...some chains he plays on beat, others of beat. I tried to find myself the intended pattern but he never seems to play it the same way twice. I'm quite sure the first chain is intended to be ON beat. In the next rounds of the slow broke up version he favors the OF beat version that i added at my post. But as soon as he speeds up he seems to favors the ON beat version of above link. If he does it in the last chain as well he even ads an extra note on top of the normal extra note in order to finish on 6. You can find that variation on above link. The Of beat variation you can find in my typed tabs on the previous page.
In both cases you might prefer to start playing the chords straight on beat 5 and 6 and beat 11 and 12>>beat 6 and 12 is your 1th feet tap when you repeat the feet-chain.... later you can adapt the syncopated variation he favors at full speed (you can find them in above link).
RE: Question about Diego del Morao f... (in reply to El Kiko)
quote:
cuadrado is just a way of saying to round something off , or rather square it up ... like if your compas is missing a beat or 2 then it doesnt end on 12 , for example, you have to add a bit on to make it 'cuadrado'
humm! so what's the difference between your definition and being out of compas?
_____________________________
"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)
RE: Question about Diego del Morao f... (in reply to mezzo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: mezzo
quote:
cuadrado is just a way of saying to round something off , or rather square it up ... like if your compas is missing a beat or 2 then it doesnt end on 12 , for example, you have to add a bit on to make it 'cuadrado'
humm! so what's the difference between your definition and being out of compas?
Thanks for the definition Kiko. I'll take this one -
If you're out of compas then the falseta isn't/ 'cuadrado'. Get it?
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Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland
RE: Question about Diego del Morao f... (in reply to chester)
quote:
Thanks for the definition Kiko. I'll take this one -
If you're out of compas then the falseta isn't/ 'cuadrado'. Get it?
well yes of course your right ,
quote:
humm! so what's the difference between your definition and being out of compas?
there are many reasons for being ' out of compas ' like you come in a bit late or early so your not going to finish right , unless you skip a bit to catch up , or try to 'cuadrar' your mistake , But really thats just being wrong as oppose to being mainly right then not ending right cos a little bit was missing
I was just mentioning really what the word is used for , its not just for flamenco or music , but anything in life that doesnt fit.
RE: Question about Diego del Morao f... (in reply to El Kiko)
Ok, I think i understand better what you mean. (you're focusing on the cuadrado side, I'm more about the not cuadrado)
quote:
But really thats just being wrong as oppose to being mainly right then not ending right cos a little bit was missing
If someone ends up with 1 or 1,5 missing (or adding) beats, in one case he's wrong (out of compas) and in the other is right (uncuadrado).
I'm not very convinced, but why not. Gonna tell this next time I've got a comment about my sloppy compas, "tss tss i'm not fuera, i'm playing not cuadrado, that's it!" it sounds cooler.
_____________________________
"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)
RE: Question about Diego del Morao f... (in reply to mezzo)
quote:
"tss tss i'm not fuera, i'm playing not cuadrado, that's it!"
I see what you mean, but you can't say that. Even if you're playing a super funky falseta that's not cuadrado for a few compases - you still gotta make it cuadrado at the end.
The point is always knowing where the 1 (or whatever you want to call it) is, even if you're not always emphasizing it.
RE: Question about Diego del Morao f... (in reply to chester)
I can't speak for Ricardo, but I'm pretty sure that what he was saying was that if you think of bulerias in 6's, you're ok. and that you should be able to play a half compas and keep going, and if everyone is paying attention they'll go with you.
but that's based on grooving and feeling and having reason and purpose to do it. If you're just flailing and mistakenly add 2.5 beats, that's out of compas.
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Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Question about Diego del Morao f... (in reply to turnermoran)
quote:
ORIGINAL: turnermoran
I can't speak for Ricardo, but I'm pretty sure that what he was saying was that if you think of bulerias in 6's, you're ok. and that you should be able to play a half compas and keep going, and if everyone is paying attention they'll go with you.
but that's based on grooving and feeling and having reason and purpose to do it. If you're just flailing and mistakenly add 2.5 beats, that's out of compas.
IN bulerias when accompanying or playing solo, medio compases (odd groups of 6 beats) are NOT cuadrao but acceptable and still considered "in compas". Like the falsesta in question is "in compas" but not "cuadrao". To be cuadrao you need to have 12 beat phrases, and it doesn't count to simply repeat a phrase that has an odd number of 6's. (for example, a falseta with 3 half compases that repeats adds up to 12, but is not cuadrao because the repeat occurs "crossed" or shifted against the 12 beat phrasing.) As erik stated earlier the simple aspect of the phrasing is revealed by the beat the falseta ends on. A phrase ending on the tail beat (4 or10) is simply over, and the next head beat is the start of a new cycle of 12. A phrase ending on a head beat (6,12) begs for a remate....an answer of some sort to book end the falseta, usually rasgueado.
With solea or alegria, it is sometimes acceptable in a guitar solo to make similar uses of half compas fasletas, but when accompanying it is generally considered wrong to cut the compas in half, even if the singer seems to be "crossed" you must maintain 12s. see cante accomp thread for more on this.
RE: Question about Diego del Morao f... (in reply to turnermoran)
quote:
but that's based on grooving and feeling and having reason and purpose to do it. If you're just flailing and mistakenly add 2.5 beats, that's out of compas.
So the INTENTION is the key to be labelled as not cuadrado (?)
If someone is grooving a 14 beats solea here and there. In one case (let's say an obscur YT guy), he's dead wrong coz out of compas. In other case (let's say a very well considered flamenco artist), he's right but not cuadrado.
That's what bothered me. Is the not cuadrado label implies inapropriate (+ or -) beats?
_____________________________
"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)
Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Question about Diego del Morao f... (in reply to mezzo)
quote:
That's what bothered me. Is the not cuadrado label implies inapropriate (+ or -) beats?
no. Plus or minus X number of beats is out of compas. plus or minus specifically 6 beats is a half compas and distuinished from being simply "out of compas" by describing it as "not cuadrao".....other wise 6 beat phrases of buleria and other forms that use it would be considered single compases. A single compas is defined as 12 for most of these related palos (buleria, solea, alegria, guajiras, etc).
It is ok to describe certain anamolies as "out of compas" even when played by professionals, but understanding when deliberate liberties are taken. Examples include the 9 beat buleria falsetas (could be described as odd quarter compases) of sabicas, N. Miguel, PDL, the rubato stretching of solea where it can seem beats are added to or eaten from a full cycle.
Finally, the half compas issue comes up with 4 count palos as well....tangos, tanguillo, rumba, tientos, taranto.
RE: Question about Diego del Morao f... (in reply to Ricardo)
Yes I understood what you were refering with the medio compas trick. What puzzled me was more the some little "thing" messing or adding in kiko's explanation.
quote:
It is ok to describe certain anamolies as "out of compas" even when played by professionals, but understanding when deliberate liberties are taken. Examples include the 9 beat buleria falsetas (could be described as odd quarter compases) of sabicas, N. Miguel, PDL, the rubato stretching of solea where it can seem beats are added to or eaten from a full cycle.
Speaking of the rubato stretching of solea or seguirya, IMO all the beats are presents, but not in a metronomic manner. There should be nothing messing (in the way I see it). As you said "it can seem...". So it only seems, but there are no messing things in it. And for the 9 beats falsetas, i was not aware of them, so
thanks for the clarification.
_____________________________
"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)
Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Question about Diego del Morao f... (in reply to mezzo)
regarding the 9 beat falsetas, here was a tab of sabicas...if you follow the link in Pauls post you will find the discussion regarding two vids of Nino Miguel and Tomatito. I pointed out N. Miguel makes the 9 beat out of compas falseta with palmas!!! Also the original audio of sabics is in that thread somewhere. Some years ago doitsujin pointed out the location of Paco de lucia making the same type of out of compas phrasing in La Tumbona from the orginal recording on Solo Quiero CAminar. Other versions of the same falseta (Castro marin, live in America, any live vid on youtube of that falseta) are different so the falseta is in compas. Out is OUT... no doubts about it.
RE: Question about Diego del Morao f... (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ)
I guess everyone in this thread would be interested to know that we're bringing Diego del Morao back to for Festival Flamenco Gitano USA again this year.
He has a solo show in Oakland, CA at Yoshi's on Sept. 26th and also plays on some of the other shows in the Festival over at the Palace of Fine Arts in San Francisco. While he's here he will teach a 3-day master class in San Francisco from Sept. 28-30.
Then he's off to LA for a show at Hermosa Beach Community Theater on Oct. 1st and a master class in LA on Oct 2 & 3. He goes to NYC to play for Jose Mercé on Oct. 5 at Town Hall (who he also plays for in California). So far no news on the NYC master class but I should have that organized soon. It will probably be on Oct. 6th.
Here's full Festival information for San Francisco and links to LA & NYC: Festival Flamenco Gitano
Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland
RE: Question about Diego del Morao f... (in reply to Ricardo)
I cant see how this went on for so long ....... saying something is not cuadrado , is just like street talk meaning ' it doesnt fit ' no more no less . It's not an exact phrase meaning you finished 1.326 beats early or anything like that , Out of compass is out of the 12 beat compass you have ,,, of course you can be out of compass and not cuadrado as well ,,
Actually thats what a play like most of the time ....
I have somewhere a falseta that starts on beat 9 , which feels a bit funny , but it is worked out well and finishes right , cudrado . SO although you think it may go wrong it doesnt and it is in compas , (except when I play it)
this is like translating , specifially the word 'caramba' it just means like ' good grief ' of course depending on what is happening at the time people will write back and say it means
good gracious sh== f==k wt the hell
or any other outburst ...and they would all be right .
if someone like a singer says its not cuadrado , they are telling you that you have make an error and it didnt sound like it fitted in right ,. etc etc ....instead of the big explication .. just one word ......cuadrar
but they are not telling you anything specific about why or how to fix it ,,,... its just the same like when I play and thenmaybe .. e.g.Ricardo says ,'thats sounded sh1t ' hes just letting me know that it could have been better but he is not specifically giving me any info as to why or how to fix it ....
street talk , cuadrar, . . things that go together well , and work , fit etc ....
no es(ta) bien cuadrado ......it doesnt fit ..work ... go together etc ... but nothing specific....
Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Question about Diego del Morao f... (in reply to El Kiko)
quote:
if someone like a singer says its not cuadrado , they are telling you that you have make an error and it didnt sound like it fitted in right ,. etc etc ....instead of the big explication .. just one word ......cuadrar
Singers usually just say you are FUERA compas....they don't care so much about cuadrao. In bulerias, odd sixes are NOT fuera compas. It is more a term used by dancers if the guitarist is not doing enough music or too much music that it doesn't fit nicely. Normally I hear it as a term used in a Positive way that means the music is still IN COMPAS, simply not square....and in some cases "too square" all the time is NOT a good thing either.
Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland
RE: Question about Diego del Morao f... (in reply to Ricardo)
Once again yes , but Fuera just means out (of) compas , its just a general term and really gives you no specific info , just that your out ,...
No odd sixes are not out of compas at all ,and would never be considered so , Unless you did something strange before it,, and happened to start your 6 on beat 2 of 12 ,,, in fact they are very common I wouldnt call them odd at all,, just 6's.,,also some people use them more than others
And sure dancers and singers etc may concentrate on different things . . I agree that singers would not be so much on top of the cuadrado bit , except when they want the big finish to there potent words , and if you dont go with them to support that you'll see if your fuera or muy mal cuadrado at the end .....!!! Dancers of course would as all the steps are inside of the compas , like in a sevillanas , if you are out of compas how will they dance ?....
>
quote:
the music is still IN COMPAS, simply not square.
...exactly , what i meant by it doesnt fit well , or maybe I should have said sit nicely , or maybe I cant explain it well ,....
BUt however my point was that it does not mean anything specific ,, or even the same thing every time ... as I saw was being discussed earlier ,.... Its just one of the general things that can be wrong , like you could be out of tune . the timing is wrong somehow (compas) , or it just doesnt fit ( work ) and finish wrong , ( cuadrado )
My point was that they are all just general terms and shpuld be considered so . SO people here dont have to bend their heads trying to understand exactly what it means as it doesnt exactly mean anything , and as soon as you have a possible definition you will find and exception.... I think if you speak English just do the whole thing in your own language , or do the whole thing here in Spanish , as some terms may not translate well under certain conditions ,..... Ask your Spanish freinds to translate the Subjunctive Tense from Spanish to English and that will keep you busy for a long time, you may get different even conflicting results but they may all be right , to some extent ,..
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