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Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under
Guitar sound
Have a listen to the sound of this guitar. I have noticed that this type of sound is becoming popular these days. There is something about it. It's hollow, fast and very cool IMO. I find it intriguing.
Have a listen to the sound of the trebles when he plays the picado lines at 3:30ish and 3:55ish. The action sounds super low but the note rings hollow and open at the same time. And when strummed it sounds great!
Are any of the luthiers here looking to achieve this sound in their guitars? I haven't really noticed any guitars from luthiers here that achieve this type of sound.
If your a guitarist, would you like to have a guitar that sounds like this one? Im Curious
You cant reference what you're hearing from those perfromences because you're hearing the guitar, through a mic, through a PA system through another microphone.
Besides that, most of what you're hearing is the player and his technique.
Tuto could be playing a yamaha, and it would still sound basically the same in this context.
I'm aware that reverb, pa's, mics and the players technique are playing their role in the sound in these videos. I can still reference them to the sound of thousands of other videos with reverb pa's and mics. There are certain distinctive sounds present coming from guitars like this.
Like the short hollow sound during picado. The rubbery bouncyness of the bass notes. The way the sound has warmth, fullness and power without over resonating, booming or sounding too in your face. The way the musical tension is built within the sound of a chord. The control over the sound that guitars like this enable the player to have.
In the first video listen to the sounds of the chords at 0:30 and 1:14, The balance over the guitar is outstanding imo. Or try and replicate the short fast accents that swing in at around 1:57 on a fully resonating flamenco guitar. The majority of guitars will end up sounding messy with to many sounds present, many of them being out of balance.
I believe there is a reason this type of guitar is desirable. They tell a cool story imo and would have been carefully chosen. I'm not saying that this sound is the best for every situation, but if one is a fan of this style, this type of guitar is vital.
It's interesting that luthiers here are so dismissive of this sound. Here you have some of the greatest flamenco guitarists choosing to play these guitars, and luthiers respond with" it's just reverb" or "if i made a guitar that sounded that bad i would shoot myself in the hands"
To me that says a lot. Imo luthiers should pay attention.
I think it's not reasonable to say it's just reverb etc etc and leave it at that. The actual question is 'this actual sound on their guitar' and not this sound after eq-ing etc. basically the actual question is "do you know of any guitars with this sound, without being mic-ed".
Anybody who thinks that the sound of a guitar recorded, compressed and sent thought the internet sounds like the real guitar does not understound sound.
Anybody who thinks that the sound of a guitar recorded, compressed and sent thought the internet sounds like the real guitar does not understound sound.
anyone who thinks that you can record any guitar, compress it, and send it through the internet and make it sound like that does not understand sound or guitars.
The reason that guitar sounds that way on that video is because of the amplification used and the technical approach and aire of the guitarist. I bet dollars to donuts that guitar does not sound that way in person. I like the players aire and his music though.
He also might have it in lower tuning which would give the string less tension and change the sonority of the guitar and how it works with the the mic. When Jason McGuire plays buleria in Rondena tuning the guitar changes its general sonority to sound more like that due to less tension. Your answer may be to experiment with drop D tunings and/or playing in E flat, A flat and D flat keys which change the way the chord voicings effect the sonority of the chord inversions, thus effecting the guitars voice. The guitar you have might already go to that place.
Non of the guitars i have ever heard Jason play produce this sound. You can cut frequencies, eq and compress sound but the guitar either behaves in a certain way or it doesn't. It's not only about how the guitar sounds acoustically. These guitars would sound cool acoustically as well imo. Not necessarily like the processed sound in the videos. But the basis of the sound would be present in the guitars. I believe that's why these dudes choose them.
ook friend all that stuff they say about "old guitar sound" on records and this and that sound of recorded guitars is all giving a false reading on what guitars really sound like.
I disagree. I have played old condes that make the sounds in old recordings. After playing many guitars I have had times when i pick up my friends old conde and play for example, a cepero falseta on it. After playing the same falseta the same way on other guitars it never sounded right. Then i play it on the old conde and i realize why, It is the guitar. The familiarity is even spooky.
Of coarse amplifying, processing and recording a guitar sounds different to playing it acoustically. That's a no brainer.
why don't you just record the guitar(s) you have in a similar fashion - through mics, P.A., etc, then upload it to YouTube and listen to your guitar. If it sounds basically like you're guitar, then the argument is pretty much settled. if it sounds totally different, then there we go.
I tend to agree with you in a basic manner - if you take a $200 guitar, and a $2000 guitar and subject them to these variables, I'm sorry, but it's not like the $200 guitar sounds like gold and the $2000 guitar sounds like poop. just my opinion, but I think guys who put pickups in good guitar have better sound then, say, a Cordoba. Because you can't polish a turd. Well...you can't polish it to a lusterous gleaming shine.
I think there´s quite a few things you havent understood.
First, if you want exactly that sound, start saving. You´ll need mics, PA system, effects etc. I dont think you´ll find a flamenco guitar with direct un miked sound like the one you like so much
next, you compare sounds that are made in totally different ways. Some are made recording live with PA, mics, effects etc. and some are made using a webcam and a computer..... Do you really believe yourself that you can get ANYTHING out of that.
Last. You say that the luthiers here are bad. You say it directly. We cannot make you a guitar that sounds like this or you will accept. Cool, and thank you. You´re the one who knows.
Maybe you shout consider playing the banjo. They sound close to what you like You could end up being famous. Banjo flamenco could be the next big thing. I personally loooooove banjos. (I actually mean it)
You say that the luthiers here are bad. You say it directly.
Come on, Anders. KMMI77 didn't say you guys "are bad." Rather, he complained, rightly or wrongly, that the luthiers are too quick in dismissing his point.
I actually think the point at issue in this discussion is very interesting. On the one hand, I'm sympathetic to the point pressed by ToddK and others that mic, PA system, medium for online presentation, etc. can have a huge impact on the sound we ultimately receive.
On the other, hand, I'm sympathetic to KMMI77's response that those significant effects don't completely obscure the sound of the guitar in every case. For example, every time I listen to Jason McGuire demo one of Glenn Faulk's guitars, it sounds like a Glenn Faulk guitar.
Sure, one could probably achieve that sound with electronic effects on a different guitar. But what's at issue is whether it's ever possible for the raw, live sound of a guitar to show through all of the electronic devices mediating the production and reception of the sound. If it is possible, then the next question is whether the sound KMMI77 identified is an instance of that phenomenon.
Well, indirectly, he´s saying that in his opinion we´re bad.... Because we´re not making guitars that sound the way he wants them to sound and we´re not taking him serious. So in order to present a guitar nowadays, a luthier needs to record his guitars using the same PA, mike, effect setup as on these videos. Thats COMPLETELY far out.
Those recordings of Jason guitars are they made with the same recording equipment or with different ones?
You can of course always hear some similarity between guitars recorded on more or less the same system. But, I could take one recording of a guitar and take it to a studio and mix it to sound like 2 different guitars. No problem at all. I´ve been in pro studios enough times to know what you can do. It could even be done on a laptop computer.
Both videos are not what i consider to be good recordings to represent real guitar sound especially the second one sounds totally compressed (check?). But i can see what Kris is saying because honestly, you can hear it. Whether it is caused by electronics or if its real, i dont care and i wouldnt know how to find out. I would give the player the benefit of doubt though, coz both players are hardcore and it would be totally believable. Besides the guitars sound pretty bad actually so, even considering that the players manipulate to get this bad of a sound seems dubious to me too. Kris do you have more examples which refer to the sound you are hearing here?
My guess is that the kind of guitar you can get this sound out of will be a really dry sounding spruce top blanca from 19something. But as our members already said, the amplification system will change the sound a lot. The mic choice and EQ setting is already enough to produce a sound totally different from the natural tone of your guitar. If you still want something that sounds similar without any amplification you will have to start travelling through the places trying at least one guitar a day until you find what you've been looking for.
Oh and: if you want that boxy sound then start to hit your strings really hard! like ol' bicho Tuto you know what I mean?
I agree. Sounds a bit like the guitars we´re discussing. Imagine a hardcore PDL picado on this thingie. It´ll scream and make everyone raise and shout: "Joder, como mola. Olé olé: Besides, the guy´s got cool trousers
Anders, Sorry, but I'm not even going to respond with an explanation to the sooky nonsense you have written.
Turnermoran,
Thanks for your comment,
I have uploaded videos from gigs of me playing through a pa with compression and eq. The guitars sound slightly different acoustically, but in my experiences, the guitars character always defines the sound once mixed and amplified. The guitar in the video still has plenty of highs mids and lows imo. The sound is strangely open and closed at the same time.
erictjie,
$20,000 euro wouldn't surprise me. I'm sure the owner of the guitar in the first video realizes how difficult it would be to find another one that has that sound.
machopicasso, Thanks for your comments and understanding of my viewpoint.
Deniz, I would have to look for other videos. I just watched these two by chance yesterday and they reminded me of each other. I believe guitars that sound like this would be hard to come by.
Thanks for your opinions and advice bursche.
I have not stated anywhere that the guitar would sound identical acoustically to the way it does in the video. Cool yes, the same no. People have just reached that conclusion. And seem to be arguing with me on subjects that i have no issues with. It is always difficult communicating in a few words on a forum. Anyway, I agree that using effects can add to this type of sound. But i still stand by my belief that the guitar is playing the major role. It's not only about the compression and volume.
I personally find this guitars sound appealing. I'm not bothered if others hate it. I think it has x factor and suits the flamenco genre. I like other guitars and sounds as well. There is room for everyone. But given the choice i would be happy with a guitar like the one in the first video These guitarists have good tastes imo.
Kris do you have more examples which refer to the sound you are hearing here?
Hey deniz, Here is another clip. This guitar is similar in some aspects. It's a little more thick and chunky, and not as rubbery, smooth and balanced overall imo. I hear some similarity though at 0:38. And yes i realize it is detuned.
I know what you mean Kris. It is a combo of two main things IMO. The tuning of the top (the actual note) heard relative to the key they play in (certain notes are pronounced vs others giving that "hollow sound") coupled with (to a lesser degree) type of treble strings (since the main thing issue is in the trebles). A different type of treble string will change the voice a little bit....for example those rectified or whatever they are trebles that don't have the same snap, or a brighter sounding or thinner bodied string.
Anyway I asked about that certain vocal accent guitar tops have and if it is considered ideal or a building error, I can't remeber who but some luthier in the luthier section knew exactly what I refered to and said that when tuning the top, this vocal issue of pronounced or accented hollow tones is intended to be avoided.
I think maybe what you hear is the "scooped mids" thing - there are very little mid frequencies left and high frequencies are more pronounced through distortion. In the first 2 videos this is thanks to not very good recording. In the 3rd video around 0:36-0:38 (and similar around 1:28-30)he's playing a fast sequence and thanks to not optimal right/left hand synchronization - or maybe he's doing it on purpose for effect - the noise of fingers/attacks is more prominent. I guess you can achieve something similar with various forms of muting the strings - not allowing the guitar to fully resonate. I realize it's probably not what you want to hear, I just want to save you from searching for something that's not "in the guitar".
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These guitarists have good tastes imo. 
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