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Barbero & Fernández
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Pedoviejo
Posts: 59
Joined: Dec. 12 2003
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 RE: Barbero & Fernández (in reply to Pedoviejo)
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In response to John and C. Vega:
I’ve always found that classical and flamenco guitars are very similar to fine wines: the materials and the skills of the producer must combine to make a consistently fine product, but you have to add a little bit of magic to produce a great one. But it doesn’t stop there: time, use and care take their toll as well. A great bottle of wine will not remain great if mishandled, and its glory will likewise fade after a period of time even if it is properly cellared. For legendary great guitars, we have to rely upon the judgment of those who played and listened to them when they were at their prime, and ditto for those legendary great wines that are now only history. Thus, the source of that information becomes all important: E.g., if Sabicas said such and such guitar was great, I would take his word for it (unless he was trying to sell it to me).
I don’t think Marcelo or Arcángel ever made anything less than extremely fine guitars in their entire respective careers, but no one produces consistently great ones. However, if a builder produces enough great ones, it gets noticed, and that is the source of the legendary status of those two luthiers, like Santos before them: they each produced many a truly great guitar, and if you were never fortunate enough to ever play or hear one live, that is not grounds to dismiss their work as less than their reputations have merited. For example, whatever his merits as a player, Carlos Montoya was the only flamenco guitarist of his generation who could afford to buy any guitar he wanted, and he consistently had Barberos and Arcángels. For instance, his 1969 Arcángel blanca that was recently sold at Christie’s in New York: I heard that guitar in 1973 when it was only 4 years old. Long story short, I was standing at the back of a concert hall packed with a sold out audience. Montoya was playing with the local symphony orchestra, and with a full orchestra playing and a full house that guitar positively sang. I could hear every note, including the high trebles. And THAT was with the action set extremely low and the guitar tuned a whole tone below the standard AFM tuning. I have no idea how that guitar sounded when it was sold almost 40 years later, but it was definitely a true “monster” in its prime.
There was another such Arcángel that was legendary in Madrid. It was played by one of the tablao guitarists (Luís Pastor, if I remember correctly) at Café de Chinitas, and that guitar was so fine that all you had to say was “the Café de Chinitas” guitar and everyone knew what you were talking about- “everyone” being the host of professional guitarists who lived and worked in Madrid. As Arcángel told me, he made another guitar right after that one – same fine woods, exact same model, exact same care, skills and technique, and while a fine guitar, it wasn’t a monster. “Show me a bad guitar and I will tell you exactly what is wrong with it,” he said, “but show me a great guitar and I will not able to tell you why it is great.”
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Date Jun. 8 2012 0:40:27
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Ricardo
Posts: 14837
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Barbero & Fernández (in reply to Pedoviejo)
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Nice pics and interesting stories. I have thought about something for a while and just now a time to share my thought. There is a BIG difference between filling a concert hall or fighting to be heard with an orchestra, vs playing for cante. Usually for cante in an intimate acoustic setting, a loud guitar can be obnoxious. I find that the reason so many players graviated to estso/sobrinos de esteso is because they were well balanced quiet guitars....and still are. In intimate environments with a singer, one can do some hard rasgueado and it sounds nice and balanced. So the dynamics of the instrument become the main thing. Of course for noisy baile and such, those guitars get drowned out...so before amplification they simply had to add up guitar players to be heard. C. Montoya used to bash the crap out of his guitar and I'm sorry to say, his sound was less then ideal.
Some singers are much louder than others as well. Some one like Paquera who is very loud totally drowns out Parrilla's esteso in juerga. A louder guitar probably would work better in that case IMO, but anyway my point in general is that loud concert hall guitars need not be a goal for luthier IMO. Rather balanced dynamics. In addition, the loud voiced guitars I have played tend to have lots of reinforcing harmonics and are difficult to equalize with a close microphone on stage. It seems in my experience, very dry quitely balanced guitars work much better and can be cranked up very loud or "close" sounding, even inferior instruments interms of quality.
It's kind of a shame that some the best sounding guitars acoustically will not be heard in concert, but reserved for acoustic concert hall settings only (a rarity for flamenco IMO).
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Jun. 8 2012 17:04:53
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Pedoviejo
Posts: 59
Joined: Dec. 12 2003
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RE: Barbero & Fernández (in reply to Pedoviejo)
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Spot on, Estabanana! I didn’t mean to imply that the Arcángel guitars were merely loud, but I can see how what I wrote above was taken that way. When I said that that 1969 “sang”, I meant just that. Segue re “loud”: I once had a Tamura flamenco, which ironically from a distance could have been mistaken for an Arcángel because Tamura stole the Santos-Barbero-Arcángel head design (there are incremental subtle differences between them). To further the irony, I brought it to Arcángel who graciously had it refinished. When I played it after it was refinished, Arcángel exclaimed with his usual sarcasm, “[expletive deleted], it’s not very loud, is it?” He didn’t say that to be admiring, because it was extremely loud but lacked other qualities. Many years later I had a brief discussion with Arcángel about volume in a guitar. “Oh yes, you can build a loud guitar,” he said, “but the sound will go out like this.” He made a “boof” type noise while gesturing with his arms and hands that indicated something boldly flying out from your body but quickly falling off. But a well made guitar, although not initially as loud, has a sound that can “extend further and sustain,” he said extending his arms out in emphasis. His point was that a merely loud guitar is like an explosion that startles but is quickly gone with no lasting effect. The real trick – the art, if you will – is to build a guitar which has sufficient volume which projects and sustains, and which is balanced between the basses and trebles. And from what I’ve observed (and heard), that latter is much easier said than done: Like with volume, it is relatively easy for an experienced luthier to build a guitar with big, boomy basses, but getting singing trebles at the same time is another matter entirely. (And the professional luthiers out there can address these subjects much more thoroughly than I.) The bottom line is that a truly fine guitar allows for a great dynamic range of expression – loud and growling when you want it to be, or soft and delicate. A guitar that is always loud, regardless of how it is played, is not in that number.
And to Ricardo re all those Conde’s: Of course, there is a “Conde sound” of sorts, but I would respectfully demur from your theory as to why so many players have Conde’s. My observation, for what it’s worth, is that the reason so many flamencos have Conde’s is because there were always so damn many of them. The “Sobrinos” followed the Ramirez business model, and then, let us say politely, “enhanced” it. That’s grist for another large mill, but suffice it to say that there were always many, many more Conde’s (first) and Ramirez’s (second) than guitars produced solely by one luthier one at a time, as was always the case with Barbero, Arcángel, Reyes, and those others who had the integrity to shrug off the temptation of great financial rewards that could have so easily been obtained by merely signing the labels of guitars built by others. With Conde - IF you were a big name guitarist – you could sit and play a whole bunch of guitars and pick the ones you wanted, and by the law of numbers there were going to be some really nice ones – loud, not so loud, sweet, barking, etc. Literally, take your pick.
Also, while, yes, accompanying the cante has different challenges and requirements than the dance, again my own observation is that juergas of any kind tend to be loud, noisy, boisterous affairs. There are those moments where there is just the singer and the guitarist, but these are almost invariably sandwiched between lots and lots of noise of all varieties which never stop just because a guitar is playing. (Just like – again, my own observation – Gypsies joke and laugh a lot, lot more than they cry or wail.) As to the dynamics, if it is a truly fine guitar and it is too loud for the singer, don’t blame the guitar. As to C. Montoya, I am not a fan of his playing. My point was that that Arcángel was just wonderful in spite of his playing, a rare feat for a guitar. Usually, it is the other way around – a so-so guitar sounding divine in the hands of a skilled player. And on that note, I would respectfully suggest that the balanced, delicate sound you describe getting from your Conde has more to do with you than the guitar.
The context that must be remembered is that flamenco guitarists were usually poor and were seemingly always wheeling and dealing (not to speak of incessantly complaining about their guitars to the luthiers). They wanted a “professional discount” from the luthiers and were always looking for more guitars because when they went on tour they would sell these at a profit to enhance their incomes. All the Spanish luthiers were well familiar with this, and frankly it seemed to me that the Conde brothers played this game back at the guitarists. So I’ll leave you with a story about the quantity of Conde’s: One day Juan Maya “Marote” entered the Conde shop (back when all three were still alive) looking for more guitars to buy, and he was, of course, well known there for his “buy-sell” habits. The brothers all were cordial and smiley but shook their collective heads. “Sorry, Juan, we don’t have any right now.” The shop-talk conversation continued for a few minutes, and then who should walk in the door but Sabicas himself, sunglasses and all. And before you knew it, as Juan told me, “y a’i venía otra, otra, otra” (“and then out came another, and another, and another...”) Like a very happy catfish, while the big fish coaxed out all the tastiest prey, Juan just lay there snarfing up all the ones the big fish didn’t want. And how do you think “los hermanos,” whose guitars were in such demand and being sold all over, could somehow have so many guitars in reserve?
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Date Jun. 8 2012 21:32:53
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jshelton5040
Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005
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RE: Barbero & Fernández (in reply to Pedoviejo)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Pedoviejo
“Sorry, Juan, we don’t have any right now.” The shop-talk conversation continued for a few minutes, and then who should walk in the door but Sabicas himself, sunglasses and all. And before you knew it, as Juan told me, “y a’i venía otra, otra, otra” (“and then out came another, and another, and another...”) Like a very happy catfish, while the big fish coaxed out all the tastiest prey, Juan just lay there snarfing up all the ones the big fish didn’t want. And how do you think “los hermanos,” whose guitars were in such demand and being sold all over, could somehow have so many guitars in reserve?
I don't know anything about "guitars in reserve". I do know that the last two Filipe V Condes that I played were superior to any of the A. Fernandez or Barbero guitars that I played and I'm not a particular fan of Conde guitars. Not trying to be negative in any way to Fernandez or Barbero who deserve every bit of praise that they get, I guess after 45 years of guitar building and playing one becomes a little more skeptical about the mystical quality of the "great" makers.
_____________________________
John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com
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Date Jun. 8 2012 23:33:51
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3459
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Barbero & Fernández (in reply to Pedoviejo)
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quote:
That’s grist for another large mill, but suffice it to say that there were always many, many more Conde’s (first) and Ramirez’s (second) than guitars produced solely by one luthier one at a time, as was always the case with Barbero, Arcángel, Reyes, and those others who had the integrity to shrug off the temptation of great financial rewards that could have so easily been obtained by merely signing the labels of guitars built by others.
You are spot-on in your above-cited observation, Pedoviejo. My list of the top luthiers who made first-rate guitars one at a time (without the mass-production mentality of Conde and Ramirez), would include Marcelo Barbero, Manuel Reyes, Arcangel Fernandez, and Gerundiino Fernandez. I'm sure there were others, but those four were tops.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jun. 9 2012 0:12:11
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3459
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Barbero & Fernández (in reply to jshelton5040)
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quote:
It just happened that the last two Conde's were really good. Hey, a good guitar is a good guitar as someone once said (I think it was a vendor on this forum).
I completely agree with you and did not mean to demean the quality of Conde's (or Ramirez's). Rather, I meant to demonstrate appreciation for those luthiers (of whom I number Marcelo Barbero, Manuel Reyes, Arcangel Fernandez, and Gerundino Fernandez) who were not only great, but produced great instruments themselves one at a time, rather than "outsource" much of their production. This does not mean an "outsourced" Conde, for instance, cannot be a fine instrument, but I just appreciate knowing a fine guitar was actually made by the luthier whose name appears on the label.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jun. 9 2012 10:01:27
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Pedoviejo
Posts: 59
Joined: Dec. 12 2003
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RE: Barbero & Fernández (in reply to Pedoviejo)
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I just wanted to post a couple of pictures relating to Marcelo Barbero and Arcángel Fernández and look where it’s gone. Fair game, though, I suppose, and now that we’re talking factory versus hand made…..
The plus side of factory made guitars is that you can have so many to choose from. The more there are, the higher the odds that you’ll be able to find something decent, which is indeed possible. I’ve played lots, and there are some that play just fine once you’ve re-set them properly. And of course, besides availability, there’s also the price difference – although, I must say that in recent decades I’ve been continually stunned at the prices some folks are paying for factory guitars, prices the same or higher than a luthier-made instrument. (How about that $70K for a such and such model Les Paul? “Why?” I asked. “Because there were only 250 of them made!” was the breathless reply. Please pass me the flight sickness bag – and be quick about it.)
To me, the ultimate in factory made guitars was and still is Ovation. For your collective erudition, here’s what that company’s own website says:
"Through intense research and development, Kamans engineers made discoveries about the physics of vibration and acoustics- critical factors in the design and fabrication of helicopter rotor blades, missile nose cones, and other aerospace components exposed to high vibrational stress. After achieving many aviation firsts and setting world records with his helicopters, Charles Kaman-himself a dedicated guitar enthusiast-decided his aerospace division should apply its technology and know-how to the centuries-old art of guitar making."
Right. It was all about acoustics. Had nothing to do with being able to completely eliminate the time and expense of the wood and skilled labor involved in crafting the back and sides by simply knocking out a piece of plastic on a mold. Or die cutting the tops, punch fitting a plastic rosette, knocking out necks on a modified gun-stock machine, and buying the “Glen Campbell Show” (anyone remember that 1960’s American icon?) where Glen and all of his guests played nothing but Ovation guitars. You couldn’t enter a music store without bumping into a life-size cutout of Glen poking an Ovation in your face.
And all that merchandising worked – even with well known guitarists. In the late ‘70’s I sat one time with Charlie Byrd before one of his performances, and he showed me his favorite performance guitar, a nylon stringed Ovation, which he let me try while I let him try my Conde. “I know it doesn’t sound like anything,” he said quite accurately – it was positively dead - “but it’s just right when it’s amplified.” And it did sound just right in performance – in the hands of Charlie Byrd, at least. (But now when I think back, I wonder if Charlie was also being paid to play that Ovation….)
But perfectly amplified guitars is not really what we’re all about, is it? I have no problem causing some extra trouble getting the sound right just because I have an antiquated, hand built instrument that the Harvard Business School would find to be a poor economic choice.
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Date Jun. 10 2012 22:10:43
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Pedoviejo
Posts: 59
Joined: Dec. 12 2003
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RE: Barbero & Fernández (in reply to Pedoviejo)
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To Ricardo: No, no, those were wonderful insights re guitars for cante-accompaniests, and I think very valid. Just think about separating substance from procedure: The procedure here seems to be to make your post (the substance) and then quickly duck. When it becomes quiet again, then you can poke your head back up to see what was thrown your way or every which way, and respond (or not) appropriately. Estebanana seems to be more of an old hand at this technique - just like that olde fart Highlander (and he’s about to bounce out and say, “Gotcha, Yank! I’m a Lowlander!” Lucky I ducked.)
To Estebanana: Excellent insights re American steel string guitars versus Spanish gut/nylon. Definitely different critters, but both from the same continent, like the American Mustang is descended from Spanish Andalusians..... And this analogy just got very strange when Andalucía popped in there, even though it’s true. Anyway, you know a lot more about the steel string variety than I do, for sure. But the American version of the guitar had to start somewhere, and I wonder where the original models came from…. Besides which, there had to have been a Mr. Martin and Mr. Gibson and Mr. Washburn who originally built guitars by hand – although I doubt if they had virtuosi as their customers whereas Torres had the likes of Tárrega. Someone could probably write a doctoral dissertation (U.C. Santa Cruz? Santa Barbara?) on those themes.
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Date Jun. 10 2012 23:40:27
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