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RE: [HELP+ASK] i want to learn flamenco but i know nothing about guitar, is it possible?   You are logged in as Guest
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Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: [HELP+ASK] i want to learn flame... (in reply to qzack

quote:

And also they told me that by learning and able to play multi-genre i can satisfy "people's" taste in majority so later i can share flamenco in the way that is "acceptable" to non-flamenco ears

Then i started to think of sharing flamenco to these "audiences" the way they might accept
But i think its wrong because by sharing the "mixtures"
It would also results in different feel for myself

That's not what i want, i told them that what i want is people to accept flamenco the way it is, instead of "mixtures".. I dont really mind when people dont understand flamenco
And but they keep answering me like its impossible to learn flamenco without the ability to play "simple genre" and its useless to play alone because people might wont accept flamenco of its complexity so they persuade me to do a fusion




look some of your friends weren't totally wrong, there was some truth in what they were saying about learning etc, there are easier ways more recommended fr someone just starting guitar...sure.. .. and if they were wrong.. it was just an opinion, i am sure they meant well..in the end you are always going to get information from every side...its gonna be your job to take it into account but also consider whats best for you and what you want..

and assuming noone will like or understand flamenco is done due to misinformation...as i said there are thousands of different flamenco styles out there done by different guitarists born in different eras...all flamenco dosent sound like Digeo del Gastor or Juan Martin...or it dosent all sound like bulerias or seguiyrias...to say people wont understand or like flamenco is to say people wont understand or like music...because there is enough different styles and variety in flamenco to please absolutely every ear...just have to learn what works best when and for who..

to predict how audiences will react to everyone is impossible and i also find it impossible to imagine that any listener will have that same reaction to every single flamenco song as there are flamenco songs that sound so completely different that you might as well be doing a different genera...

they will or wont understand it anymore than they understand any other guitar music, weather classical or rock or pop...but it has the ability to give so much more because of the techniques involved..

Also if someone like Paco Pena, or any other flamenco Show has ever been to Singapore....they must love flamenco...because noone goes to as country where noone will buy a ticket to the show

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 3 2012 1:43:36
 
El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: [HELP+ASK] i want to learn flame... (in reply to qzack

I dont understand why you are letting ,,'what other people think' or want to change your life so much ....
Right where I live there are no other flamencos , no where to play or anything ,, but I just keep on doing it , and I dont really give a Fart what others think or not ,
If I didnt do it \I would regret it for ever , if one day I get a gig , well good , if not , welll good ,,, I do it because I want to .......
I put stuff on my YOUTube Channel (look if you wish ) and get a reply now and then ,..and I am here on this site with my freinds , who I have never met , and yet feel at home . .any way if you want to do it , then do it .....thats pretty much it ............lots of people here will hepl guide you even though we are far from each other ........

_____________________________

Don't trust Atoms.....they make up everything.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 3 2012 10:04:22
 
Pingaloka

Posts: 42
Joined: Jun. 9 2011
From: Granada, España

RE: [HELP+ASK] i want to learn flame... (in reply to Florian

Hi Rico_Kiko what's your youtube channel? I'm curious to see what you have posted.
greetings!

_____________________________

Clases de Flamenco Online
Flamenco Classes Online

http://www.flamencomasterclass.com/
http://www.flamencomasterclass.blogspot.com/
info@flamencomasterclass.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 3 2012 12:13:43
 
Munin

 

Posts: 595
Joined: Sep. 30 2008
From: Hong Kong

RE: [HELP+ASK] i want to learn flame... (in reply to Florian

quote:

ORIGINAL: Florian

quote:

And also they told me that by learning and able to play multi-genre i can satisfy "people's" taste in majority so later i can share flamenco in the way that is "acceptable" to non-flamenco ears

Then i started to think of sharing flamenco to these "audiences" the way they might accept
But i think its wrong because by sharing the "mixtures"
It would also results in different feel for myself

That's not what i want, i told them that what i want is people to accept flamenco the way it is, instead of "mixtures".. I dont really mind when people dont understand flamenco
And but they keep answering me like its impossible to learn flamenco without the ability to play "simple genre" and its useless to play alone because people might wont accept flamenco of its complexity so they persuade me to do a fusion




look some of your friends weren't totally wrong, there was some truth in what they were saying about learning etc, there are easier ways more recommended fr someone just starting guitar...sure.. .. and if they were wrong.. it was just an opinion, i am sure they meant well..in the end you are always going to get information from every side...its gonna be your job to take it into account but also consider whats best for you and what you want..

and assuming noone will like or understand flamenco is done due to misinformation...as i said there are thousands of different flamenco styles out there done by different guitarists born in different eras...all flamenco dosent sound like Digeo del Gastor or Juan Martin...or it dosent all sound like bulerias or seguiyrias...to say people wont understand or like flamenco is to say people wont understand or like music...because there is enough different styles and variety in flamenco to please absolutely every ear...just have to learn what works best when and for who..

to predict how audiences will react to everyone is impossible and i also find it impossible to imagine that any listener will have that same reaction to every single flamenco song as there are flamenco songs that sound so completely different that you might as well be doing a different genera...

they will or wont understand it anymore than they understand any other guitar music, weather classical or rock or pop...but it has the ability to give so much more because of the techniques involved..

Also if someone like Paco Pena, or any other flamenco Show has ever been to Singapore....they must love flamenco...because noone goes to as country where noone will buy a ticket to the show


Paco Pena went to HK too a few weeks ago also and I live there. But you can still count the people involved in flamenco here on one hand. These kinds of occasional shows really don't say much about a country's affinity for flamenco. People went to the Pena show because it was advertised as a major cultural event. They will go there and appreciate it but once they get home they will already have forgotten about it. There is a difference between visiting some one-off cultural event that looks interesting and then going on with your regular life afterwards and having an actual, deep passion for something.

Japan is of course another matter.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 3 2012 14:10:49
 
El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: [HELP+ASK] i want to learn flame... (in reply to Pingaloka

quote:

Hi Rico_Kiko what's your youtube channel?

its on my profile page
just click the little man above my name and you will find it
or it is

http://www.youtube.com/Patereeko

no hay nada especial por allí y y muchos son muy viejas ahora tambien ,es un poco triste , pero puedes ver si quieres........Sigo intentando y tal vez un día.............

_____________________________

Don't trust Atoms.....they make up everything.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 3 2012 14:45:25
 
Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: [HELP+ASK] i want to learn flame... (in reply to Munin

quote:

Paco Pena went to HK too a few weeks ago also and I live there. But you can still count the people involved in flamenco here on one hand. These kinds of occasional shows really don't say much about a country's affinity for flamenco. People went to the Pena show because it was advertised as a major cultural event. They will go there and appreciate it but once they get home they will already have forgotten about it. There is a difference between visiting some one-off cultural event that looks interesting and then going on with your regular life afterwards and having an actual, deep passion for something.

Japan is of course another matter.


...ok...so you advertise your next show or even as a major cultural event...yes you wont have the same money to reach the same amount of people but work with what u have, make a good press release that captivates interest of the media and score a lot of free publicity that way...u have to be creative, most important u need a positive and can do attitude... if people will read an article about the show...or see you on tv or something all the sudden you have a better chance of selling more tickets

...on paper the show the act is however good you say it is.....I am not saying plain out lie but think creatively... sell it...focus on the good, tell them why flamenco relates to any person in the world regardless of language or nationality...speaks and expresses in a language the knows no culture barriers.. and try to make it interesting or informative, educational...almost like an already written article..

IMO theres no country in the world where flamenco wont work, in fact forget flamenco....(think of all the crap artsy fartsy productions that say nothing... noone understands but go to it cause they in a big theater and advertised etc..as far as i am concerned flamenco deserves that and more ...so that's what drives me...if crap will work...flamenco will...if dosent is just cause they don't know it yet...i will shove it down their throats till it does)...just need to believe in your art, in flamenco (it sells itself)...think outside the box and don't wait or hope for someone else to create a scene for you..

i have done a lot of my own shows, flew in a lot of flamenco dancers/singers etc from all parts of Australia, ... created a lot of good opportunities for myself and others ...i realized i was never gonna get the ones i want unless i took control of it never gonna get the scene i want unless i push for what i want


if a place has a good flamenco scene is not cause its a better place for flamenco...its cause someone just like you or me pushed it...refused to accept the situation, i honestly believe this....it really does work...I live in one of the smallest major cities in Australia...theres no more or less natural affinity for flamenco here than anywhere else in the world...it started out with one school, one guitarist once upon a time...now theres about 6 schools, and around 20 locally produced bigger flamenco shows a year ...not counting the 2 regular weekly flamenco gigs in 2 bars and appearances in festivals or shows from Spain visiting..

the general Australian public dosent know any more about flamenco than any Singaporean or Chinese member of the general public

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 3 2012 15:56:51
 
Munin

 

Posts: 595
Joined: Sep. 30 2008
From: Hong Kong

RE: [HELP+ASK] i want to learn flame... (in reply to Florian

Yes, of course you have to push but sometimes the external and cultural circumstances DO play a big role...for example my former teacher and his wife (a Japanese dancer) opened a flamenco studio in 2009 after coming back to HK from Spain where they had studied for several years. They really tried hard to create a better environment for flamenco, promoted shows, tried to get many student etc.

But now they're giving up the studio and going back to Spain again for a while, they are frustrated because a) rental prices make it extremely hard in HK for smaller brick & mortar businesses to survive, and b) the interest just wasn't there as much as it should have been because HK is a very materialistic and money-minded society, and people don't have much time for hobbies and activities apart from work.

There are lots of factors that can contribute to whether flamenco has potential to develop in a particular place...and sometimes they are just not there, no matter how hard you work for it. Of course things can still change, but that is work that has to be done over several decades..
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 3 2012 16:39:51
 
Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: [HELP+ASK] i want to learn flame... (in reply to Munin

its hard for me to comment further on your situation Munin i will take your word for it... as i don't know exactly what they did and how creative they were and what they tried before they gave up...i don't know maybe you right ..maybe its impossible in HK...but if i was there...even if i was wrong... id never accept it

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 3 2012 16:44:29
 
Munin

 

Posts: 595
Joined: Sep. 30 2008
From: Hong Kong

RE: [HELP+ASK] i want to learn flame... (in reply to Florian

Well the specific case doesn't matter anyway - my point was just I believe there are places in the world where the circumstances are such that flamenco is naturally in a better position to develop. And there are also places where cultural, social, etc. circumstances make it very hard.

But we have to see, Taiwan and to a lesser degree mainland China are getting some traction now in terms of flamenco, maybe it will change in the future.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 3 2012 16:49:19
 
Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: [HELP+ASK] i want to learn flame... (in reply to Munin

quote:

And there are also places where cultural, social, etc. circumstances make it very hard.


yes that's true of course...very hard...harder than in other places...but never impossible..i see hope there when all you love and wanna do is flamenco that's enough..theres no choice but to keep doing your thing...sometimes just that's enough to create opportunities

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 3 2012 16:54:19
 
qzack

 

Posts: 39
Joined: Aug. 17 2011
 

RE: [HELP+ASK] i want to learn flame... (in reply to Florian

woops, i've left this thread for a long time

actually i already bought a blanca recently
its j marcario model 40
is it worth it for beginner?

so flamenco is an oral and practical tradition instead of theoritical-emphasized subject isnt it?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 5 2012 4:17:59
 
Munin

 

Posts: 595
Joined: Sep. 30 2008
From: Hong Kong

RE: [HELP+ASK] i want to learn flame... (in reply to qzack

quote:


so flamenco is an oral and practical tradition instead of theoritical-emphasized subject isnt it?


That is true, however people commonly misinterpret that as "you can do whatever the **** you want and call it flamenco".
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 5 2012 11:06:35
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14627
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: [HELP+ASK] i want to learn flame... (in reply to Munin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Munin

quote:


so flamenco is an oral and practical tradition instead of theoritical-emphasized subject isnt it?


That is true, however people commonly misinterpret that as "you can do whatever the **** you want and call it flamenco".

That's true. THe main point is that the guitar of course crosses many different genres, and despite what friends and others might tell about it, each genre has it's own discpline and path to learning. For example pop rock, after you get past tuning and chords, or learning complete songs and guitar solos from tabs, you must find a drummer and "jam" to get a sense of timing. Later a band might form where covers and original music can be explored.

Jazz requires chart reading and/or memorizing standards...later theory is studied to some degree so one can improvise over a chart of a structured song...improvsing both melodically and accompaniments (comping chords it's called). Later the rhythm is explored with drummers again but the idea is to develop swing and phrasing...all based on charts and standards. A good example of a song form learned and jammed on by both rock and jazz musicians is the Blues. And the Blues in and of it's self is a genre where again, you have a unique discipline and playing with other musicians to develop the rhythmic taste.

Classical music is approached differently. A focus on technique at first with emphasis on note and sight reading music in the direction of easy to graduating difficulty. The only time rhythmic feel becomes important is when playing in ensemble, where instead of a drummer you have a conductor or some other method for understanding timing properly. Theory is not so important as in jazz as improvistion and composition are not so important as interpretation. Theory is mainly used for analysis of styles and song forms to be interpreted.

Flamenco is also technique based as in classical but despite some similarities such as scales and arpegio, MOST of the techniques are different. ANd also a big difference is that more like jazz or blues, song FORMS are the basis. INstead of notes and tabs or gradutating pieces, FALSETAS are learned and rhythmic patterns that define the song forms structure. THe structure is more like blues in a sense than jazz standards where complete songs are charted. Instead the song forms allow endless development both in terms of interpretation of classics, improvisations, AND composition. The rhythmic concepts here are learned not with drummers, but rather in the role of accompaniments for singers and dancers. THe "standards" are learned in those contexts mainly and the appropriate swing or feel of different styles are developed that way.

So you can see with such a range, it does not make sense really to develop from the begining, the wrong discipline for a certain genre. Just get off on the right track from the begining or there will be odd difficulties and the process of "unlearning" certain habits and concepts will be more difficult.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 5 2012 15:39:00
 
marduk

Posts: 600
Joined: Feb. 3 2010
 

RE: [HELP+ASK] i want to learn flame... (in reply to qzack

quote:

btw how can i practice in performing?
simply by trying to play in public? plaza or somewhere crowded?
would it be effective? or is there any other way?
because when i play in front of people i play very unrelaxed unlike when i play alone


qzack, when I was a kid I taught myself to play guitar while living on the streets (not flamenco, basic rock songs mainly) I spent a lot of time busking (often playing the same 4 or 5 songs for hours). I made enough money to survive, and have never been nervous performing.

I think the best way to learn how to perform, is to perform

it really helped me a lot, I get myself into terrorfying situations reguarly (sharing the stage with florian, aloysius, alval and other people while im still only learning) but I dont get nervous, because I am very used to playing in public

(anyone who knows me can confirm that I take a guitar with me everywhere I go. I get a lot of my daily practice done on busses or walking down the street)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 5 2012 17:37:23
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