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RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Luthiers
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XXX
Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
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 RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to Ron.M)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ron.M
Actually I heard an economist say that instead of bailing out the banks the money would have been better given to ordinary people!
That way, folk would start spending again, buying houses and cars and guitars and going holidays etc and the world economy would start moving again.
Seemed to make sense actually. 
The economical logic is to take money from all the places which arent a source for money, like consumption (buy houses, ordinary people), and to put it into places which generate more money (where it is used as capital in the true sense - money that is used to generate more money), like banks or companies etc. Making the ordinary people poorer - less expenses for social healthcare, buildings, higher taxes on consumption etc - helps and is often a neccessity (like now) to get the economy going. This is revealing about the principles of this way of economy.
btw the idea to kick off economy by increasing consumption lacks the basic logic that you first need to HAVE money in order to spend it. But if the economy is so low that jobs are getting cut, then the rate at which people are ABLE to spend money is lower. There one can also realize that money is not a tool or vehicle. As in the sense "yeah just print the money, give it to the people and let them buy all the stuff!!". Doesnt work and if anything the current crisis shows it. Money is economic power.
_____________________________
Фламенко
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Date Jun. 19 2012 10:15:19
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3459
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to XXX)
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quote:
Sorry but you have a very esoteric understanding of capitalism.
In fact, most critiques of capitalism that favor socialism demonstrate an "esoteric" and flawed understanding of both captialism and socialism. Most critiques begin with a basic flawed premise by comparing capitalism in practice with socialism as an ideal. That is like comparing apples and oranges. In order to be valid, capitalism and socialism must be compared either as ideal models or as they both operate in practice.
There is nothing inherently wrong, bad, or perverted about capitalism as such. What is wrong are individuals and groups that manipulate the system unfairly and without principles, such as those who engaged in the totally discredited financial "derivatives" and other fraudulent practices. But that simply suggests, not that capitalism is bad or perverted, but that it needs a certain amount of regulation in various areas to ensure that everyone has a chance to enter the system and engage in valid activity. The ideal capitalist model assumes that there are no monopolies (thus, anti-trust legislation in the U.S.), that everyone has equal access to information, that the rule of law prevails and contracts are honored, and that individuals and groups are free to pursue there own economic interests. It is this model that must be compared to ideal socialism.
But let's compare capitalism and socialism as they have operated in practice. By any measure, capitalism has led to greater human development. Economics has been described as the study of the allocation of scarce resources. There is little doubt that the free market and the free exchange of goods and capital is the most efficient way to allocate scarce resources. The evidence is clear. Compare the capitalist West since World War II and the communist East, and it becomes clear that free-market economics vastly outperformed the command economy five-year plans of the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe. The reason is because the millions of everyday economic decisions made by a country's population cannot be pre-ordained by a government planning cell. They are best reflected through the mechanism of the market, and production increases when people have incentives to produce. (Not that the Soviet and Eastern European "Nomenklatura" cared. I lived for two years in Bulgaria during 1974-1976, and I can assure you that these paragons of "socialist" virtue blew their "comrade" citizens off the streets as they flew by in their Zil limousines, sirens blasting to make way. Lovely demonstration of the equality of socialism.)
Two recent examples are China and India. Both China during the Maoist era and India during its Soviet-style five year planning phase experienced little growth and had populations mired in poverty. China has lifted literally millions of its citizens out of poverty during the last 30 years. India has been doing the same since it dispensed with government planning and let the market predominate. Of course, there is still poverty and inequality, but more and more are being lifted out of poverty, And inequality is not bad as long as there is a path for individuals to lift themselves up, but it takes time, and not all will be lifted up equally.
In the old socialist (they weren't really communist) command economies, people had no choice in where they would work, and they had no incentive to innovate. That is why there was so much stagnation in those societies. Even in the United Kingdom until the late 1970s, there was a stagnant socialist economy that was controlled by the unions. Remember "Red Arthur" Scargill and the mine-workers' union? They would go on strike at the drop of a hat and hold the British public hostage to their demands. The British economy ranked below that of Italy. And do not bring up Sweden as a practical model of socialism. Sweden was far more capitalist than Britain, with 80 percent of its economy in private hands. Sweden got the "socialist" reputation because of transfer payments through taxation. But that is not true socialism with the means of production in the hands of the government. Sweden still is a very capitalist society, but with a heavy overlay of taxation and transfer payments. But that is how the Swedes want it.
That the recent financial crisis has resulted in hard times for many is regrettable, but it is not an indictment against capitalism, money, banking, private enterprise, or the free market. It simply demonstrates that within the capitalist framework, there needs to be some targeted regulation to ensure rational compliance, and that rogue traders and bankers don't go "off the reservation." And by the way, banking and credit allow innovators and entrepreneurs to obtain capital to start up businesses, which in turn create employment opportunities.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jun. 19 2012 15:35:25
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XXX
Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
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RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to BarkellWH)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
There is little doubt that the free market and the free exchange of goods and capital is the most efficient way to allocate scarce resources.
Goods are not exchanged freely. They are being sold and bought for money. [even if you think "within" capitalism it would still not be true: the current crisis shows that the finance was free in creating more and more speculative investment opportunities. Once the bubble breaks, it serves as a bottleneck and can even lead to countries bailing out. Long time before that though, those who have blown up the bubble already made their profit and have taken out any money from the market.]
quote:
They are best reflected through the mechanism of the market
Dont make me laugh. Companies produce whatever they think can be sold with the maximum margin. Goods that are good for society, but are expensive to produce or develop often dont get developed or at least after a long waiting period (fuel cell cars for example). Goods that are crap are being produced simply because they bring in some margin. The production in capitalism is not organized in any way. Private producers produce stuff and then LATER on find out if there was enough demand for it, to get a profit. If the margin is too small, the production will be stopped, even if there is still demand. Capitalism is not even able to meet the most basic need for eating in too many places on this planet. I dont know in which world you live, Bill, but in my world there are people who own a private jet, 20 cars, 10 houses and whatnot.
Capitalism is basically a loose-loose as a lot of productivity is eaten up in competition between companies and between workers in a company. A rational production would combine many production facilities in a way that they work together, not against each other. In the automotive sector there is a constant war between the manufacturers and the suppliers as ive been told, and im positive it should be the same for all sectors in capitalism. As it is a nature of money/property: if one does have it, everybody else is excluded from it. The goal is to accumulate the most money, at the cost of everybody else lacking that money. If capitalism would guarantee everybody the life of a super rich guy, then i would be all for it. But im sick of people ignoring that its the system that creates millions of poor creatures. Capitalism works just well now. Just like it did back in the day in Manchester. It was never intended to provide a good healthy life for everybody. Its what people ideologically would like to think, but its not reality (thats a FACT).
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Фламенко
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Date Jun. 19 2012 16:17:02
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3459
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to XXX)
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quote:
Goods are not exchanged freely. They are being sold and bought for money.
Of course they are bought and sold for money. But money is simply the medium of exchange. It is the free market, via its reflection of demand, that determines the price of the goods bought and sold, as opposed to some government entity that sets the terms of exchange.
Your statement that "Private producers produce stuff and then LATER on find out if there was enough demand for it, to get a profit." essentially has it exactly backwards. Most firms determine what the demand for a product is before beginniing production. They are not stupid enough to risk everything on a crap-shoot.
Finally, your statement: But im sick of people ignoring that its the system that creates millions of poor creatures. Capitalism works just well now. Just like it did back in the day in Manchester. It was never intended to provide a good healthy life for everybody. Its what people ideologically would like to think, but its not reality (thats a FACT)." is laughable given the historical fact that capitalist societies have overall vastly improved the lives of their citizens since the days of the Manchester mills. Your statement simply defies reality, but then there are still people who actually believe that the earth is flat! Each to his own reality.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jun. 19 2012 17:16:20
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3459
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to XXX)
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quote:
In this world, in which every society is capitalistic
There you go again, making the flawed assumption that any socialist system that does not conform to your "ideal socialism" must, by definition, be capitalism. This is transparently a ruse to absolve socialism of any responsibility for its defects and to condemn any system that you do not fancy as "capitalism." Speaking of being "very funny," I'll tell you what is "very funny," the notion (implied in your quote cited above) that the U.S. and Western Europe (among others) have the same economic systems as North Korea. Now that is a real howler!
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jun. 19 2012 19:55:24
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XXX
Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
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RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to BarkellWH)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
Talk about being "very funny." I'll tell you what is "very funny," the notion (implied in your quote cited above) that the U.S. and Western Europe, among others, have the same economic systems as North Korea. Now that is a real howler!
*sigh* i didnt say or implied that and ffs after all i have written here i cannot believe you misunderstood me this way. Its just you again making comparisons because this is the only way you can put it into a striking argument: the economy of US and NK is not the same. Wow, shock. Again this doesnt tell anything useful (about neither system) but this seems to be the only way you are able to think in. I dont give a **** what kind of economy NK has as its simply besides the topic. The amount of non-capitalistic countries is so marginal that i would have never thought you would make a point out of it.
quote:
capitalism (and the free market), in spite of its imperfections and the need for regulation, is the most efficient means of allocating scarce resources.
This must be the same way they teach communism (or whatever they call it) in North Korea. You actually dont know what it is, but you know that it is the best and most efficient way. It is obvious that there is no "allocation" of resources. There is an exchange money against goods/work and vice versa. It is simply a "dream" that this would be an allocation, besides the fact that this allocation obviously doesnt work in reality. Often enough the state has to "allocate" (even that would be an euphemism) because there is not enough market for that (education, healthcare, housing), without even going into the capitalistic economy of poorer states.
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Фламенко
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Date Jun. 19 2012 21:25:33
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Ricardo
Posts: 14825
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to XXX)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Deniz
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
I have seen dirt poor take advantage to get ahead as much as filthy rich.
Exactly. And why is this so? It is because, in this system, not naturally, the guy who takes the most advantage gets the farthest. And make no mistake: the larger quantum of property you accumulate, the less ther will be for all the rest. This is the whole sense of property. I dont care if someones rich, but i have something against it if this is at the cost of everybody else. And btw, the richest people dont get to that because of their own work, but because they command over other peoples work. They let work.
quote:
It all balances out in the end, trust me.
In the end it will look pretty terrible if this goes on. Globalization will lead to much more competition among workers, which makes them the more vulnerable for exploitation. I dont think the next 50 years will be as positive as the last 50 years for most western citizens.
I was talking "naturally" meaning the way people behave. I already stated I worked with indiviuals that were more "social" ie not working with the "system", and it didn't work. It's not fair to share equal between hard workers and free loaders. Nor does it work to simply take advantage of others ....and no it's not any system that makes people want to take advantage of others to get ahead, they simply DO IT. SOME of them sure make out better and it sucks...but it doesn't last. My wife was a child in Nicaragua when she was forced to lie face down at gun point as Sandanistas took her home. Revenge everyone happy now? LOL NO man!!!!!
So far what do you propose the world to do in the next 50 years hmmm? A new world order to control all and make it "fair" for EVERYONE regardless what they do or don't do to deserve it? Get real man or tell us the solution you propose for "the world".
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Jun. 20 2012 1:40:01
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3459
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to XXX)
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quote:
It is obvious that there is no "allocation" of resources. There is an exchange money against goods/work and vice versa.
You misunderstand the meaning of the term "allocation." In economics, the "allocation" of resources (goods and services) simply means their distribution among consumers. The means by which these resources are allocated (i.e., distributed) and how their price is set is determined by the economic system.
There is an allocation of resources under any economic system, be it capitalism, socialism, or some hybrid system. Money is simply the medium of exchange for goods and services. Under socialist command economies, the government determines what goods are produced, their price, and how they are allocated (distributed). Under capitalism and the free market, the price of goods and services (and, thus, the amount of money that must be exchanged for the goods and services) is determined by demand. That demand is reflected in the market place. The price of the goods and services will be set by the market, where producers and consumers will agree on some equilibrium price. Thus, in capitalism and private enterprise, it is the free market that most efficiently determines the allocation of resources. If the producer cannot make enough to cover his costs plus a profit, he will attempt to produce the product at a lower cost by creating greater efficiencies in its production. If he cannot do it, he will withdraw from the market, and some producer who comes up with a better, more efficient productive capacity will enter the market.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jun. 20 2012 13:18:23
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3459
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to XXX)
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quote:
The people during the time of Marx have been much closer to some sort of truth of that and scientists of those days actually discussed the use of capitalism. Today we are more then enough far from that so first of all there would need to be more education and scientific analysis of capitalism (and not ideological views like Bills).
With all due respect, Deniz, the people during the time of Marx (including Marx himself) did not know how capitalism would actually evolve. They thought they knew, but as history has demonstrated, they were dead wrong. If you remember your Marx, he stated that the internal contradictions of capitalism would lead to its collapse. The historical irony is, of course, that it was the internal contradictions of communism (actually the socialist command economy, where the state controlled the means of production) that led to communism's collapse.
My views are based on analysis of the historical record and empirical evidence, Deniz. Those who insist on clinging to a Marxist interpretation are the true ideologues.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jun. 20 2012 17:39:00
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3431
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to XXX)
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Both capitalism and socialism are simplified theories which leave out the details of human behavior.
Look at yourself in the mirror. Do you see yourself as others see you? Look at your theories of economics and politics. Do they faithfully represent human behavior? No to both questions.
The advocates of capitalism, socialism, democracy or one-party rule by a benevolent elite, in their 'pure' forms, all overlook the complexityof human behavior. There is always a way to game the sytem, whatever it may be, for personal advantage. The intelligent and agressive will always attempt to exploit the meek and average.
Whatever the 'system', its fair and decent functioning is dependent upon the vigilance and activity of decent people. Some of the greatest wrongs in human history have been perpetrated in attempts to impose some political or economic theory. Humans are unable to adequately comprehend or predict the consequences of political or economic theories. The theories, to be comprehensible by humans, must omit crucial details of human behavior.
Some theories may be more amenable to justice or prosperity than others. But this will always be the subject of debate, because no theory of economics or politics can adequately predict how humans will behave under it. Any theory can produce great evils, often in direct proportion to how faithfully the theory is implemented and adhered to. The only wayto produce a just and equitable society is to make that the goal, and to be willing to make adjustments to the 'system' to eliminate abuses as they arise. I wish I could point to more societies taking this approach, including my own.
RNJ
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Date Jun. 21 2012 8:44:34
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3459
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to Ruphus)
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quote:
Capitalism IS inherently inhumane.
It priors accumulation of wealth before human concerns. It allows the appropriation of labour surplus value and from there an ever rising degree of exploitation.
Hello, Ruphus. Welcome to the 21st century. To read your (and Deniz's) comments on capitalism, private enterprise, and the free market, one would think you guys are still living in the year 1848, when Marx's observations had some validity. Capitalism, however, developed in a way that Marx never imagined, and most of us, including those of us who do not lead (as Deniz states) an "extremely luxurious life," are better off as a result. I know this fact will not register with you guys, as you drink your ideological Kool Aid, but there it is.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jun. 21 2012 13:51:20
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