Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.
Posts: 3480
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
Paco de Lucia's Performance in Washi...
Last evening, I went to see Paco de Lucia's performance at the Strathmore Music Center in Bethesda, Maryland, a suburb of Washington, DC. As usual, Paco put on an amazing display of guitar virtuosity. His group consisted of a second guitarist, a cajon player, a bass guitarist, a harmonica player, a singer, palmas, and a male dancer. Each piece was long, with many different riffs and lightning-fast picados. There was very little rasgueado or tremolo. The bass guitarist was good, and the harmonica player really put his soul into it. And, as I stated, Paco's virtuoso performance on the guitar remains unrivaled.
What the performance was not, however, was great flamenco. I would call it "jazz-infused," fusion-flamenco. (I hate that term "fusion," but there you are.) In fact, my wife (who is Brazilian) and I both agreed that some of the performance sounded very much like Brazilian jazz with a bit of samba thrown in. There were riffs when Paco sounded very much like early Carlos Barbosa-Lima. I don't think he deliberately meant to, but then, maybe he did. At the end, Paco and his group came back on stage for a great encore. To sum up, It was a great performance and a fine musical evening. But if I want to listen to what most of us think of as more traditional flamenco, I would turn to Paco Pena.
Full disclosure: I did not take my guitar with me, I did not run back-stage to try and catch Paco in his dressing room like some aging groupie, and I did not try to get him to autograph my (non-existent) guitar or my wife's posterior.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
Posts: 15472
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Paco de Lucia's Performance in W... (in reply to BarkellWH)
no it was all traditional flamenco. By now i would hope folks that follow flamenco know what paco's show is about.
Pretty much same program as that full length concert video filmed in Germany 2 years ago on youtube. He played Rondeña instead of Minera. The oldest falsteta he did I think was from Doblen Campanas the tremolo. He was pretty on this time considering he has ups and downs via youtube cel vids over last few years. The buleria was acceptional with a couple new remates, an extra C# falseta from zyrab with different thumb falseta ending which was a surprise, and overall good energy despite the fact his group looks burnt out. 17 concerts in US I heard will be the tour! Time to change out the band members I am afraid. Well, the 2nd guitarst Antonio Sanchez looked enthusiastic.
The buleria group number also was in C# and Duquende threw off everybody with some wacky key changing letra. Paco, bass player and Antonio all fishing for different chords....then paco gave duquende the evil eye and the singers all laughed. LIke I said, seems the band is getting burnt out. All the cantes that were sung in either F# like taranta, or C#. Duquende did buleria por solea in F# and siguiriya! Thats like super high. THe other guy David did Solea alcala in F# and later in C# for farruco dancing. Oh yeah tangos was in E phyrigian. Again very high keys for the guy singers....they have to really strain at times....makes me miss the female singers he had a few years back.
I posted a pic in the thread of Rumba king where he played and signed his Peter Tsorba guitar.
Posts: 3480
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: Paco de Lucia's Performance in W... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
no it was all traditional flamenco. By now i would hope folks that follow flamenco know what paco's show is about.
I understand what Paco's show is about (having seen him on several occasions), and I very much enjoyed it. And I certainly accept different individuals' definition of "traditional." Mine, however, does not include lots of bass guitar and harmonica. It is all a matter of personal taste, and for the more traditional flamenco, my taste runs to Paco Pena.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
RE: Paco de Lucia's Performance in W... (in reply to BarkellWH)
quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
quote:
no it was all traditional flamenco. By now i would hope folks that follow flamenco know what paco's show is about.
I understand what Paco's show is about (having seen him on several occasions), and I very much enjoyed it. And I certainly accept different individuals' definition of "traditional." Mine, however, does not include lots of bass guitar and harmonica. It is all a matter of personal taste, and for the more traditional flamenco, my taste runs to Paco Pena.
Cheers,
Bill
Bill, that sounds exactly what Humberto said after the show. You know what's funny, though, Paco seems to agree... here's part of their backstage conversation:
Paco: "You know, Humberto, I have this thing where I tell my bandmembers that they sucked after every show. Why don't you tell that to them this time?" Humberto: "Not only were they crap, but your playing was terrible as well!"
*gasps from bandmembers*
Paco: "I know! I retired from flamenco 30 years ago".
Posts: 15472
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Paco de Lucia's Performance in W... (in reply to Bulerias2005)
Paco has fought with purists since his first album. Saying he doesnt play ANY traditional flamenco after all he is been through in his career is odd to me. Do folks really need a restating that he has changed flamenco? I mean I am about ready for the big april fools where some people come on after a recent paco concert and say "wow, great traditional flamenco ....I think he play guajiras de lucia and some Nino ricardo and sabicas falsetas. FINALLLY a nice flamenco concert from paco! "
RE: Paco de Lucia's Performance in W... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
All the cantes that were sung in either F# like taranta, or C#
Ricardo how do you determinate the keys for cante? Is it by the singer' voice only (regardless of the guitar or capo position. eg without capo). Or is it relative to the capo position of the guitar?
I mean isnt' the pitch' voice always the same? If a cantaor sings various tunes, the guitarist could varied the key by moving the capo. But his voice remains always in the same key. Am I right?
quote:
Paco Pena
Ah! This brave traditional pillar. Fortunatly he's there...
_____________________________
"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)
Posts: 15472
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Paco de Lucia's Performance in W... (in reply to mezzo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: mezzo
quote:
All the cantes that were sung in either F# like taranta, or C#
Ricardo how do you determinate the keys for cante? Is it by the singer' voice only (regardless of the guitar or capo position. eg without capo). Or is it relative to the capo position of the guitar?
I mean isnt' the pitch' voice always the same? If a cantaor sings various tunes, the guitarist could varied the key by moving the capo. But his voice remains always in the same key. Am I right?
quote:
Paco Pena
Ah! This brave traditional pillar. Fortunatly he's there...
Sorry I was not clear. The guitar is the driving force in Paco's group if you have not paid attention to his performances for the last 25 years or so. The cante is placed inside his arrangement of familiar themes he has recorded throughout the history of his career. He doesn't just play new material or "Jam on jazz fusion" numbers as many casual listeners seem to think (judging by their reviews). Often he has to arrange older falsetas to new keys, or change keys in the middle of a piece. And it is not always the same arrangement, the band has to be well versed in all his typical falsetas for a form so Paco can sort of improvise the arrangement.
Anyway solea por buleria was in F# no capo, as was Zyrab. While perhaps most of the audience just hears jazz, the singers both sang Solea alcala joaquin 1, Buleria larga, and Siguiriyas (manuel torre style) in this key which is equivalent of 9 por medio! The buleria, siguiriya/solea por buleria medley was in C# no capo, equivalent of 4 por medio. So the singers had to have the equivalent range of jumping the same type of letras between 9 por medio and 9 por arriba in order to accomodate Paco's pieces. Tangos was in E no capo, so 7 por medio. HOpe that makes some sense.
ANd about "brave" paco peña.... I guess if you consider interpreting N. Ricardo Sabicas and Montoya live your entire career (with a sneek here or there from 70s era PDL por fandango) as brave....where as someone like Paco de Lucia plays is so playing it safe by evolving EACH form with every new recording and continues to change it up here and there live at 64 years old.....
RE: Paco de Lucia's Performance in W... (in reply to BarkellWH)
Well hopefully he's playing well Friday here in Chicago when we see him. Last time I saw him was during the time when he recorded Live in America, which was a almost exact rendition of the concert I saw.
Posts: 15472
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Paco de Lucia's Performance in W... (in reply to n85ae)
quote:
ORIGINAL: n85ae
Well hopefully he's playing well Friday here in Chicago when we see him. Last time I saw him was during the time when he recorded Live in America, which was a almost exact rendition of the concert I saw.
Regards, Jeff
The last time he came to US I think was 2007. 5 year gap, yet he plays around the world every year. With the general (I say 80 to 90% of "Flamenco" fans that go see him) attitude that what he plays is NOT flamenco anymore, or just some jazz ****, I am surprised he comes to USA AT ALL EVER. Same thing every time he comes I hear "oh I hope he plays some good ol flamenco this time" or "I saw the same exact concert 10 years ago" or "paco doesn't have the speed anymore" etc etc type crap. He said in an interview I think in 1997 or so that America audiences are warm, but still stuck on Sabicas era flamenco and don't understand what he is playing. Sorry fellow americans, but its true and it's embarrassing. I hope Paco has SOME good success with tour and decides to return cuz he still plays great and these gaps are getting longer and longer between visits it seems.
RE: Paco de Lucia's Performance in W... (in reply to BarkellWH)
quote:
I understand what Paco's show is about (having seen him on several occasions), and I very much enjoyed it. And I certainly accept different individuals' definition of "traditional." Mine, however, does not include lots of bass guitar and harmonica. It is all a matter of personal taste, and for the more traditional flamenco, my taste runs to Paco Pena.
Then why the hell would you go to a Paco de Lucia concert in the first place?
Posts: 15472
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Paco de Lucia's Performance in W... (in reply to mezzo)
quote:
So singing for Paco is something too specific
No, it's what they have settled on. Paco has arranged his stuff to accomodate lots of different singers he has used...or shall I say EXPOSED to the world. I have seen Paco drop falsetas to lower keys...he has played tangos for example in D, D#, and E. Por medio is por medio so he is able to adapt to whatever key por medio for all those cantes. Obvious he likes some estribillos of camaron or his brother wrote, or ones HE wrote... It is not like he is forcing cante to do what HE wants....I was just surprised at what keys the singers have settled on, knowing what paco has done for singers in the past, and was just trying to share it with you guys. As far as catoring to a cantaor totally....I remind that he stopped doing that LONG ago because he was embarressed to get more accolades then the singer. So after his brother left, he has promoted what I call "Camaroneros" with his world tours and recordings. Potito, Duquende, Utrera, Chonchi, Tana, Cigala, and now this David guy, all possibly could have remained wannabes if not for Paco's support. IMO.
RE: Paco de Lucia's Performance in W... (in reply to BarkellWH)
The show was great. The band was outstanding.
The sound was exceptionally good in this hall. Great acoustics and a great sound system.
However, Paco's playing, other than some nice punchy picados, was pretty soft and tired. At least in comparison to 20 years ago when i saw him at Lisner auditorium. Dont get me wrong, he's still playing great. There were some nice powerful rasgeo's, and some stops that hit you in the face.
But overall, especially the thumb work, which is a majority of the night, sounded weak and muffled compared to what i expected. I could follow the falsettas i knew pretty well, but much of the night, i couldnt really hear what he was doing. I dont think it was a sound system issue. I could hear him when he dug into a part. I just think at this point, he doesnt want to kill his right hand blasting out every note full bore like he used to. I caught him at several points of the night during other members solos, rubbing and massaging his hands alot.
And though the band was fantastic, i got the overall feeling that they were desperately fighting boredom, and were totally burnt out on the set.
Posts: 1968
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: Paco de Lucia's Performance in W... (in reply to Ricardo)
There are flamencos everywhere(not just in the US) of different ages that like different kinds of flamenco. No one is obligated to enjoy Paco's latest experiment more than his older stuff. Many people don't even like his early solo stuff because it was too modern. It doesn't make them bad afficianados and it doesn't mean they don't understand the key of F#
Artists of all kinds have been frustrated by their fans because they want to hear the stuff that made them famous more than the latest creation. I think it's legit to consider if what Paco is playing today would make him famous today or if he gets to continue to perform in front of large audiences based more on what he has done and who he is.
For sure many people don't understand what he is playing, that has always been the case, but there are also many other supporters who know well what he is doing, but prefer to hear something else. Is it wrong to prefer Cepa to the latest bulerias in C#? No, it's human nature, and I think Paco , and any other artist who has had the good fortune to have a career performing for fifty years or so, might want to throw a bone to followers that like the old stuff, instead of insulting them.
Having said all that, I'm really taking a contrary position to make a point. I don't need Paco to play his old solos to enjoy his performance, but I would rather see him get rid of the harmonica and the bass player. I have very little interest in hearing those instruments in flamenco, and it's not because I can't dig F#
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
He said in an interview I think in 1997 or so that America audiences are warm, but still stuck on Sabicas era flamenco and don't understand what he is playing. Sorry fellow americans, but its true and it's embarrassing. I hope Paco has SOME good success with tour and decides to return cuz he still plays great and these gaps are getting longer and longer between visits it seems.
RE: Paco de Lucia's Performance in W... (in reply to Ricardo)
Ricardo thanks for the replies
quote:
Potito, Duquende, Utrera, Chonchi, Tana, Cigala, and now this David guy, all possibly could have remained wannabes if not for Paco's support. IMO.
You didn't named Montse Cortes on purpose?
quote:
I dont think it was a sound system issue. I could hear him when he dug into a part. I just think at this point, he doesnt want to kill his right hand blasting out every note full bore like he used to.
I saw him in a particular context. Not in a theatre but outdoors under a tent. The sound was set up also low for him regarding the rest of the band. I was standing up very close to him and could notice that he played super soft. Add the softness, the low set up volume, and the public behaviour (speaking loudly as if it was a rock gig), at the end of the show, several peoples complained about the issue that it was hard to hear Paco. One even said to me that this way Paco's mistakes go unnoticed
quote:
might want to throw a bone to followers that like the old stuff, instead of insulting them.
wow! that's HARSH man! Do you really think that Paco insults his public??!!
_____________________________
"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)
Posts: 1968
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: Paco de Lucia's Performance in W... (in reply to mezzo)
Didn't mean for it to come across as harsh. I'm a huge Paco fan. There have been cases where modern style players, when traveling abroad, find that aficianados in other countries in some cases prefer older flamenco styles. It has been said on more than one occasion by the artists that these aficianados don't understand the modern style. Maybe some don't. But some do, and they still prefer the old. For an artist to infer that because people prefer what the artist recorded 30 years ago to whatever they are playing now is because of a lack of understanding as opposed to a matter of taste could be considered an insult.
Imagine you go see led zep and they don't play stairway..........and say because you don't like the new stuff they do, you simply don't get it. Maybe you don't, maybe you do. Point is, they would most likely play it. I personally don't care what Paco plays, I'm happy just to see him play flamenco. and i don't care if he plays some stuff that isn't flamenco. But I do have a preference as far as the supporting instrumentation.
quote:
ORIGINAL: mezzo
quote:
might want to throw a bone to followers that like the old stuff, instead of insulting them.
wow! that's HARSH man! Do you really think that Paco insults his public??!!
RE: Paco de Lucia's Performance in W... (in reply to ToddK)
quote:
But overall, especially the thumb work, which is a majority of the night, sounded weak and muffled compared to what i expected. I could follow the falsettas i knew pretty well, but much of the night, i couldnt really hear what he was doing.
Hi Todd,
Long time no speak...
Yeah, that's the overall impression I got when I saw him. I felt it was a different artist to the one I "knew". Things seemed very muffled with occasional 5 seconds burst of stuff.
Nothing like the immaculately clean stuff like Guajiras de Lucia or El Tempúl or even the brilliant falsetas when he was with El Camaron.
Sounded tired,
Came away pretty disappointed with the sound of a pretty average club band and Larry Adler ringing in my ears.
Where was this Paco de Lucia?
Got back and put on some early albums and he was there!
Hey...not exactly running out to buy the latest Bob Dylan album either.
Guess that's the way it goes....you make your mark and become a legend and folk will pay good money just to say they have seen you.
RE: Paco de Lucia's Performance in W... (in reply to BarkellWH)
The impressions here are pretty interesting, because the concert in Minnesota was totally different... I don't like Paco's newest live album at all because his playing sounds lifeless and bored... but he gave it his all at the concert... maybe because it was his first (and probably last) time here?...
Posts: 1811
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)
RE: Paco de Lucia's Performance in W... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ANd about "brave" paco peña.... I guess if you consider interpreting N. Ricardo Sabicas and Montoya live your entire career (with a sneek here or there from 70s era PDL por fandango) as brave
An exaggeration, but yes, Paco Peña’s style is nearer to the that of Sabicas/Ricardo generation harmonically and rhythmically than it is to that of the post-Lucía generation. But so what?
Dozens, maybe hundreds, of guitarists are trying to play like Lucía, more or less successfully, usually less. Why be another one? PP composes in the style he’s comfortable with, and fortunately there’s a still large audience for it. Personally, I’m glad that someone‘s keeping the old style alive — as are others, for instance Luis El Zambo & Diego Amaya.
RE: Paco de Lucia's Performance in W... (in reply to BarkellWH)
I will see him on the 30th and to be totally honest, I don't care what he plays. It's just always a thrill to see and hear what his hands do on the guitar. It's Paco!
RE: Paco de Lucia's Performance in W... (in reply to Mark2)
HaHa!
Me and the (then) wife went down to a local venue/bar to see Billy J Kramer some years back.
The Liverpool Sound!
It wasn't even an evening concert thing but a lunchtime happy hour scene in a bar!
The sound of the 60's!!!
Good to hear his 3 hits but he stood there, pretty fat in a worn out leather suit and minus the production stuff of a London recording studio or the big acoustics of a big concert hall or arena.
Actually just sounded like someone from the audience had just got up there for a bit of karaoke with a younger local band who didn't even get the chord changes right and were chewing gum and laughing..
Oh yeah...
And saw an advert poster for another famous 60's band "The Searchers" ( Needles n Pins) playing at the local school hall in nowheresville in the north of Scotland....
Posts: 3480
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: Paco de Lucia's Performance in W... (in reply to ToddK)
quote:
Then why the hell would you go to a Paco de Lucia concert in the first place?
Because, as I stated in my original review, Paco's virtuoso performance on the guitar remains unrivaled. I go to listen to his performance and the music he creates. That I do not consider it my taste in flamenco has nothing to do with my enjoyment of the virtuosity he displays on the guitar.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
Posts: 3480
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: Paco de Lucia's Performance in W... (in reply to XXX)
quote:
Since when is traditional the only definition of great flamenco.
If you recall, Deniz, I wrote,"I certainly accept different individuals' definition of "traditional." Mine, however, does not include lots of bass guitar and harmonica. It is all a matter of personal taste." I made it clear that I was only giving my opinion. You are free to have yours, as is everyone else.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
RE: Paco de Lucia's Performance in W... (in reply to n85ae)
quote:
Last time I saw him was during the time when he recorded Live in America
In my humble opinion, when I saw the Paco de Lucia Sextet back in the mid 90's, it was as good as it can possibly get. I saw him at Avery Fisher Hall, Lincoln Center and it probably was the most memorable concert for me with John Williams being a close second. I have the concert recorded on cassette and all I can say is that Paco is a true Genius. His band members (Jorge Pardo, Carlos Benavent, Rubem Dantas, Ramon and Pepe) were all phenomenal as well. It's kind of sad to see that Paco does not play half of what he used to and I don't mean just technically but it seems like he just plays because he has a responsibility to his fans. I just get the impression he no longer enjoys playing as much as he once did. He must be burnt out; after all he has been touring almost nonstop since he was 12.
Posts: 3480
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: Paco de Lucia's Performance in W... (in reply to ToddK)
quote:
The show was great. The band was outstanding.
I completely agree with you, Todd. As I wrote in my original review, "To sum up, It was a great performance and a fine musical evening." That I did not consider it great flamenco did not in any way diminish my enjoyment of the performance.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
RE: Paco de Lucia's Performance in W... (in reply to jg7238)
Hi jg,
I think myself it was a waste burying Michael Jackson. I mean commercially...
They could have got a good Taxidermist and with today's robotic prosthetics he could have appeared all over the world for years yet, with some great backing tracks and firework shows at the end...