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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 15 2012 5:08:10

Ricardo

Posts: 14852
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Seguiriya - Was The Cante or Bai... (in reply to Guest)

dancing to songs is not the way baile is done since a while now. the baile of today was mostly nothing like the baile of old....either way we can't know is we don't see it rehearsed or improvised. When I talk of boxed in cante i refer specifically to modern concepts of baile. For sure the theory of rhythmic and danceable songs evolves out to more free elongated versions, later to get boxed in again a new way, is fine and logical even if you can't prove it. But for sakes of what we have been talking about of late, we need not include any pre recorded flamenco music to point out what has been happening to cante since it was first recorded.

And regarding new methods of investigating pre recorded flamenco...keep in mind two of us still can't agree on what is rubato vs out of compas accompaniment on a recent RECORDED performance.....so imagine what grains of salt have to be taken with any such investigations of oral tradition MUSIC.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 15 2012 14:55:08

Morante

Posts: 2187
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: Seguiriya - Was The Cante or Bai... (in reply to Guest)

Anoche, Faustino Nuñez ofreció una conferencia en la Peña de Juan Villar. Una conferencia titulada “El flamenco de 1912”. Porque hoy en Cádiz, se está celebrando cien años de la primera constitución de España.

Empezó diciendo que en 1912 el flamenco como se conoce hoy, no existía. Así hablaba de los cantes y bailes preflamencos y, más importante, de la política del día, de Napoleón, de los Borbones, de la dominación de las culturas francesas y italianas en España.

El ve la evolución del flamenco como una reacción andaluza a está dominación.

Faustino es el único flamencólogo que respeto: está licenciado en músico y filosofía: era el guitarrista de Antonio Gades.

Si quieres escribir sobre el preflamenco tienes que leer o hablar con Faustino.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 15 2012 16:06:52

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 15 2012 17:27:39

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 15 2012 18:25:54

Ricardo

Posts: 14852
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Seguiriya - Was The Cante or Bai... (in reply to Guest)

Sorry I was not trying to be condescending regarding dancing to song. Others are reading and they might not understand how baile is done nowadays as on the surface it appears a dancer is interpreting the singing. And in fact there are SOME dancers that still do this but even still some of them can't help but tell a singer HOW to sing. My point was that you opened this topic up even though we were talking about this in the other thread regarding solea and I am still on that track regarding boxed in cante. I dont think I need to "forgive" any dancers about it as if they have done something wrong by forcing a standardized concept for singing. In fact most musician minded people would think it is BETTER to have structured phrasing. Anyway, even if it is true dancers deserve credit for shaping cante in the past, it doesn't change the practical importance of what I see and hear going on NOW (and by now I guess I mean from Rito y Geografia era to the present day).

Again I don't mean to belittle historians and scholars, but for practical purposes it is not so important to me as what I observe in practice. I hear a flamencologist say something about a piece of music, then I hear it and realize what is REALLY happening. You talk about himeola etc, but watch Piriñaca sing siguiriyas as recently as the 70's. With palmas she goes fast and sings starting on the first group of 3's like guajira. Then the guitar gets added and it changes EVERYTHING interms of phrasing and what the phrasing of her singing means. The flamencologists don't make any distinction and just say she exemplifies old style cante. WTF? Nowadays I hear some people say Agujeta sings out of compas....well how is he different then EVERY OTHER SINGER of his era and before? For practical purposes i have come to the conclusion singing and accompaniment and baile is simply in two camps.....free or boxed with the boxed versions taking over as older generations die out. (literally die out saddly). I think making the distinction clear and perhaps TEACHING it is of utmost importance to flamenco traditions, not what came first chicken or egg history. Yet why am I one of few that even talks about this issue?

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 15 2012 19:48:34

kudo

Posts: 2064
Joined: Sep. 3 2009

RE: Seguiriya - Was The Cante or Bai... (in reply to Guest)

quote:

Is the dance a negative influence on the cante or do they influence each other? I think it is wrong to assume that dance has debased the cante.

I read recently from an interview with a singer who talked about this topic, and he was saying that the dancers are ruining the cante nowadays, or at least thats what i understood from it... I cant remember who it was, but If I run into it again I will give you the link

I believe I read it in the flamenco-world interviews somewhere

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 15 2012 20:35:58

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 15 2012 20:40:33

machopicasso

Posts: 973
Joined: Nov. 27 2010

RE: Seguiriya - Was The Cante or Bai... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Again I don't mean to belittle historians and scholars, but for practical purposes it is not so important to me as what I observe in practice. I hear a flamencologist say something about a piece of music, then I hear it and realize what is REALLY happening.

That just suggests the flamencologists are making mistakes. So, too, are historians and scholars of flamenco if they are ignoring what occurs/ed in practice.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 16 2012 8:51:39

Ricardo

Posts: 14852
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Seguiriya - Was The Cante or Bai... (in reply to machopicasso)

quote:

ORIGINAL: machopicasso

quote:

Again I don't mean to belittle historians and scholars, but for practical purposes it is not so important to me as what I observe in practice. I hear a flamencologist say something about a piece of music, then I hear it and realize what is REALLY happening.

That just suggests the flamencologists are making mistakes. So, too, are historians and scholars of flamenco if they are ignoring what occurs/ed in practice.

It's not that mistakes are made or practice ignored. IN the case of a historian that can't do palmas certain aspects of compas go over the head right off the bat. In a lot of cases going searching for ideas that prove or dispell a concept of evolution they end up finding what they look for... but there are so many things going on now that are actually old concepts disguised as modern. Example is siguiriya compas of modern recordings sounds weird to many....so they ask how did it evolve? Then you see the oldest singer doing the same darn thing....point being NOTHING EVOLVED.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 16 2012 14:32:59

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 16 2012 14:51:35

Ricardo

Posts: 14852
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Seguiriya - Was The Cante or Bai... (in reply to Guest)

quote:

And EVERYTHING evolves (in the sense of "changes"). The goal is to figure out what evolved, how, what were the conditions that allowed for evolution, etc. And as far as the historian doing palmas, he should not just know 1) several ways to do palmas according to local performance practice, but also 2) what were the ways they were done in the past. He should ask cultural-regional specific questions like, "Were the palmas different for Jerezanos than for Utreranos?" or "At what point did regional variations get codified into one giant set of possibilities under the rubric 'flamenco'?"

Scholars of old getting a bad rap is one thing but the new, practicing-musician/scholars getting a bad rap is ridiculous. Jose Manuel Gamboa for example is asking some very hard questions, the kind people get really upset over. AND he is a guitarist.

Well, I will take your word for it though I remain skeptical until I know the specific methods of investigation. For example starting off with the bias "EVERYTHING" evolves is already a slant that influences the search. What if the question makes the investigator bark up the wrong tree and they discover what they were looking for, even though it is not the important issue? Like the palmas example....the question if palmas are different or not in utrera then jerez is already loaded....so at first sight of two different palmas styles it instantly reaffirms the regional difference suspician. Only by luck would the opposite view be forced on the investigator...that being the same different styles are observed in both towns by different people.

Perfect example...I can't tell you how many people think tapping the foot in twos (12,2,4,6,8 10) for buleria is a "modern" concept. And PDL's double foot taps are "old school". So now everyone goes looking at examples. Chicuelo modern ok he taps different....moraito ok is more old style...sabicas golpes tap tap....taptap....ok must be old vs new issue. How did it evolve?

Then you see two old ladies in Rito y Geografia...one giving palmas for mairena...the other Chicharrona standing up tapping her foot for her singing....both marking 12,2,4,6,8,10 the whole time and born around 1900.

So Chicuelo ends up being more Old school after all? Or was it always a NON ISSUE? Hope you see my point about barking up wrong trees and over complication of concepts.

Lastly Gamboa....I remind of the whole montoya rondeña issue. I read his article in la Caña from the 90's about guitar history. He based much investigation on Pratt dictionary. Fine. I followed his story about Montoya not possibly "creating in a vacuum". So right there it sounds good, but he is biased off the bat. Ok fine, we follow his eloquent logic tracing back to those days when classical guitar and flamenco guitar were more brotherly. It was beautiful...I believed every word...and finally the conclusion thanks to some anecdote of a cantaor about Borrull playing Rondeña solo (where is proof???) it all ends up that JULIAN ARCAS inspired montoyas creation.

I waited YEARS before finally getting my hand on Arcas scores. ZERO CONNECTION to montoya's Rondeña. Just the title THATS IT!!!! That is not good investigation sorry man. I instantly lose my respect for the researcher and have to take EVERYTHING else he might "discover" with a grain of salt...a big one. Don't get me wrong it was beautiful logic...but plain biased and wrong. For now I stick with the old belief that MONTOYA was the supposed creator (in a vacuum) of that toque...along with some of his other creations as well. Until I see hard evidence...not anecdote...meaning scores or recordings at least.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 16 2012 23:04:35

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 16 2012 23:28:37

Ricardo

Posts: 14852
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Seguiriya - Was The Cante or Bai... (in reply to Guest)

quote:

Everyone has to learn to count in twos or threes or 12-45 etc. Attachng a social or historical context doesn't fortify the practice in the present, but if one likes history and wants to know how things came about, then study HISTORY.

I guess you meant "feel" rather then "count", which I agree with. In regards to history, your next sentance about Rito filmed in 70's taken as law, I feel it is important as a video performance captured at an important epoc vs say any of the verbal aspects of the series. I mean hearing and SEEING the actual people doing their art is more revealing then the talk about it, or hearing the guy spout bs about "black bird" LOL. If you want to say we need to look back further then this, well, look at WHAT? There was no video like that before. Simply listening to records is next best but NOT the same. So lets just say, an old lady tapping her foot in 1971 has not changed much and she probably learned that as a little girl and can infer that it was an older practice then even her birth. What happened truly before her time is not relevant because we can't prove it either way. We cant say the hemiola was the thing if we can't see a foot tap too. Its just speculation. So digging for true sources of history of music like this (for me to consider valid) require recordings audio and video. Oldest flamenco recordings I have heard are not so different then what I see the oldest performers doing in Rito. Scores would be good too. Wish we had scores for Rito to go with the letras and biografical info.

Regarding scores, you say gestures of ARCAS are there....what gestures? I will believe you if you saw them, but I personally need to see that written out or hear it cuz otherwise it doesn't mean anything to me. For example the work of Faucher is orders of magnitude a better source to follow then say Marin's anecdotes in his flamenco method book (if you have not talked to Norman, he has that book). Faucher extracts a specific passage and discusses in his transcription books possible source of the idea, or if an idea is truly "new" in terms of its place in recorded history etc, without letting anecdote get in the way. Simply saying "oh, this falseta was an idea of Guitarist X who NEVER RECORDED" is actually almost usless info if you are truly investigating historical events. I Know scores can be bad, posters and programs in past can mis represent, and even good audio or videos are just iceburg tips....but at least they are solid research sources. Normans site too is about as good as it gets.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 17 2012 5:58:57

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 17 2012 6:08:36

Ricardo

Posts: 14852
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Seguiriya - Was The Cante or Bai... (in reply to Guest)

quote:

That said, I am glad historians don't take your attitude because we would never learn anything about the past.

In my short time here, I notice history repeats itself. I guess with history I am more interested in science type methods of investigation. I think some historical "facts" come from archeology or forensic anthropology. Notice how they put the wrong head on a Brachiasaur and invented a brontosaur....much later we learn there was never such a thing. Or was there? I think it is fun to do the unravel of the mystery thing, so long as we keep grounded that we may actually NOT be learning about the past at all. Time machine would be great, but WHO would you send to investigate? I vote Norman over Gamboa LOL.

But back on topic, I am not losing sleep over my attitude that we can't really experience "proto flamenco" or whatever. More important at present is, back to topic, baile has changed the face of cante and it need not be continuing this route, as the tools for preserve the dying practices are available. No time machine needed. Simply, singers need to "unlearn" the boxed in phrasing and revert to freely expressing melodies in compas. Good ol fandango por solea would be a start....and then dancers need to re learn how to dance to that by reacting to phrasing in the same way a good accompanist reacts to tonos while keeping compas. But I can't see it happen until it is acknowledged as an issue. Instead everyone is focused on purity concepts vs jazz fusion or commercializaton.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 17 2012 7:12:27

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 17 2012 7:42:53

Estevan

Posts: 1936
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: Seguiriya - Was The Cante or Bai... (in reply to Guest)

quote:

There is also the Marin book. I really want to get my hands on that.

Hands on:
http://www.nylonguitarist.com/rafael_marin_guitar_method.html

(the link in the middle, to the PDF of the original, not the transcribed one on the right, which is a mess)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 17 2012 16:19:19

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3433
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Seguiriya - Was The Cante or Bai... (in reply to Guest)

quote:

ORIGINAL: romerito

There is also the Marin book. I really want to get my hands on that.

If you haven't run across it already, there's a .pdf copy of the first edition here:

http://www.nylonguitarist.com/rafael_marin_guitar_method.html

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 17 2012 16:25:16

Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1805
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From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Seguiriya - Was The Cante or Bai... (in reply to Guest)

According to the old-timers, Vicente Escudero was the first to dance the seguiriya, and everyone was outraged. I could probably find the references if you're interested.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 17 2012 16:27:42

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 17 2012 16:46:20

Estevan

Posts: 1936
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: Seguiriya - Was The Cante or Bai... (in reply to Guest)

quote:

One possibility of many that almost never gets addressed are jewish traditions and their possible influence on flamenco. The Jewish lament seems promising.

You've probably read or heard that Paco got that one figured out some years ago:

"estoy casi seguro que el flamenco esta muy vinculado a la música que hacían los sefarditas de Toledo en aquella época"
ENTREVISTA PACO DE LUCÍA

...and:

...hace poco tiempo [written in 2004] descubrió, gracias a unas partituras sefardíes que le proporcionó un director de cine israelí, que la música que hacían los sefardíes "está mucho más cerca del flamenco que la árabe".
Paco de Lucía publica 'Cositas buenas'

Anyway...do let us know if you find anything; I'm particularly interested to know how this tradition might have been preserved, if it was, in Spain after 1492.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 17 2012 17:28:08

Ricardo

Posts: 14852
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Seguiriya - Was The Cante or Bai... (in reply to Guest)

Thanks for pdf link to Marin method. I have been looking it over, (although long ago Norman described it to me and it was pretty much just as he described). So there is some hard evidence right there. 1902. Interesting to note when ever he plays under the barre the tab reads as open position. Not so hard to get used to but still odd. Next the compas notation, never ending debate. I actually found his way of notating the siguiriya pretty cool. 2/4 and then a measure of rumba!

Works for the old speedy version quite well (indeed and I remember when jerezano guitarists started reintroducing this speedy accomp and some critics thought they WERE doing rumba under the cante!

) So, it works for fast sig but I think the more general concept of medium speed sig this is weird feeling.

Now as an investigative source regarding the actual music written out....I am afraid this is just your good ol watered down mel bay style flamenco for dummies method. Very commercial for students of classical, basic level readers. Not a fair representation of what the real transcriptions of actually pro players would look like. I mean I heard Habichuela Gandulla in 1909 and it was much closer to maestro toque of Montoya on to Ricardo era accompaniment compared to anything I see written here. And the accomp section is more like a basic chart of chords rather then what is actually played for cante. And then he has the redundant (though pretty) Cañas and polos written out over and over!

Kind of a waste of a tree. But overall interesting reading as part of history. Again it tells me how history repeats itself with this watered down method style of graduating "pieces" misrepresenting toque.

About sephardic connection....i have a close family friend gave me his CD he accompanies on lute this music with a singer. It is supposed to be super authentic but sorry I don't think the singing is closer to Cante then arabic at all. Only the words are more similar then arabic words. I would say general spanish folk maybe but not the cante jondo as we think of it. But of course I don't know much about it other then this recording and it could actually be an issue of interpretation....perhaps the more authentic singer would give me the impression of M. Torre or Chacon?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 18 2012 13:21:07

Ramon Amira

Posts: 1025
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From: New York City

RE: Seguiriya - Was The Cante or Bai... (in reply to Paul Magnussen)

quote:

According to the old-timers, Vicente Escudero was the first to dance the seguiriya, and everyone was outraged. I could probably find the references if you're interested.

I had always heard the same from old-timers - that Vicente Escudero was the first to dance Siguiriyas, and that it was considered scandalous at the time. If it is true, then the cante preceded the baile.

Ramon

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 18 2012 15:16:26

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 18 2012 16:49:23

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3433
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From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Seguiriya - Was The Cante or Bai... (in reply to Ramon Amira)

Dancing siguiriyas was scandalous during my youth. But in those days I had never heard the fast way of doing them like Rubia de la Perla. Doing siguiriyas that fast would have been just as scandalous as Escudero dancing them.

Ramon Montoya, Niño Ricardo and Sabicas played their solo versions faster than siguiriyas were sung in the days of Mairenismo, but many, maybe most aficionados considered the guitar soloists just to be showoffs, and what they played not to be real flamenco.

Too bad the first historians of flamenco were literary men who concentrated on the poetry, instead of musicians.

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 18 2012 16:54:55

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 18 2012 22:27:27

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3433
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From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Seguiriya - Was The Cante or Bai... (in reply to Guest)

When I said "aficionados" I was tacitly thinking "Spanish aficionados" -- upon whom it seems to me Pohren had little, if any effect. Non-Spanish flamenco fans have been heavily guitar oriented in my experience, taking the soloists very seriously. Next would come baile, with cante a very distant third.

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 19 2012 0:41:12