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Hot Glue Gun Action   You are logged in as Guest
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estebanana

Posts: 9416
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

Hot Glue Gun Action 

A Valencia factory guitar passed through the shop for some repair work. Part of the back fell apart. When I was poking around in it to figure out how I was going to paste it back together I found an interesting and somewhat disturbing thing. The glue blocks and much of the guitar was tacked together with a hobby hot glue gun. The kind that shoots melted plastic adhesive, the kind of glue you would never want to glue something like a guitar together with.

The horror, the horror.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 9 2012 2:41:34
 
Pgh_flamenco

 

Posts: 1506
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

RE: Hot Glue Gun Action (in reply to estebanana

Lol--unreal. You should post some pics.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 9 2012 6:26:54
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Hot Glue Gun Action (in reply to estebanana

It doesnt surprise me. Some of the factories use super glue for the braces and other things.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 9 2012 6:55:20
 
Ricardo

Posts: 15201
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Hot Glue Gun Action (in reply to estebanana

Don't tease us now, give us the maker's name please....

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 9 2012 13:04:04
 
Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: Hot Glue Gun Action (in reply to estebanana

I grabbed a cheap guitar off ebay 6yrs ago, it needed repairs and I thought I'd learn something fixing it or re topping it. The guitar was an Admira classical with flamed maple back/sides I couldn't find any info on the brand at the time but I thought how could I lose at $75. After getting the back off which was really easy since it was going that route all by itself I discovered it was of course a laminated plywood guitar. So $75 for veneered plywood body, warped bridge and two broken struts wasn't such a great deal after all lol. The hot glue gun they used for all the struts didn't protect it much from the stomping action that ensued

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 9 2012 13:22:34
 
n85ae

 

Posts: 877
Joined: Sep. 7 2006
 

RE: Hot Glue Gun Action (in reply to estebanana

I build assembly jigs for projects all the time with a hot glue gun. I would not
simply dismiss that stuff as no good. Most times when you take something
apart which is glued with it you'll get wood tearoff and not glue joint failure.
Now whether it's optimal for guitars, likely not. But for general purpose gluing
wood together quickly, depending on the glue stick you choose, that stuff has
a definete purpose and works very well.

Same think with modern cyanoacrylates (i.e. super glue) there's an entire world
of technology there as well, which to simply dismiss it ... Well you're living in
Ostrichlandia in my opinion. :)

Regards,
Jeff
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 9 2012 15:07:47
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Hot Glue Gun Action (in reply to estebanana

Jeff
When building instruments its important how the acoustically qualitys of the are. Hot gun is goo. It totally dampes. No good. Just like epoxy. Very strong but it dampens. Cyano is very brittle, so maybe its good for instruments.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 9 2012 16:05:16
 
n85ae

 

Posts: 877
Joined: Sep. 7 2006
 

RE: Hot Glue Gun Action (in reply to estebanana

Hi Anders -

Yes, I guess I was just talking about the glue's themself, the actual application
itself would be another issue. Epoxy, is really great for esome things, but
probably not for others.

So often people start bad mouthing something in general, when in fact it's
their specific application where it's not good. I love hot glue for making jigs.
For this I use MDF which is very stable, and hot glue it together. Then when
done I whack it with a hammer to take it apart. The MDF sheers right next to the glue joint and voila I can take down the jig with no trouble.

Regards,
Jeff
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 9 2012 16:33:36
 
estebanana

Posts: 9416
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Hot Glue Gun Action (in reply to estebanana

Jeff,
I'm pretty up on glue technology. The very qualities which make hot glue gun glue correct for making jigs are the same reasons it is totally wrong for making guitars. The fact that it releases with impact is one reason. And Anders mentioning the damping factor is a major problem.

Guitar makers want a stiff non pliable glue. Aliphatic resin glues and Poly Vinyl Acrylics like Elmers Wood glue are acceptable, but they still have problems. One thing is if they are not fresh when used they can creep over time.

Pliable or malleable glues sap the guitar of energy because the flexibility of the glue does not transmit vibration and cuts down on resonance. That is basically what we mean when we refer to "damping". Hot glue gun glue has about the highest damping I can think of besides the obvious caulk type adhesives. We want hot hide glue which is animal protein, it comes from cattle hooves, fish skin and swim bladders and other kinds of mammal skin collagen. Like rabbits.

The animal protein glues are the considered by most hard core luthiers to be the best glue for repair work and construction. In fact if you work on the violin family of instruments using any other type of glue can do extreme or unfixable damage to an instrument. Many a self styled repair man has killed a good violin by using Elmer's glue to fix it.


The CA glues or Cyanoacrylates, are very brittle. They do come in different formulations which make them less brittle or have more open drying time. But in the end they tend to glaze the grain shut and make it difficult to do repair work over areas where this glue is employed. I have also contacted a lab in Canada that runs tests on museum archival materials because it was in vogue for some years for restorers and conservators to use CA glues to reconstruct broken wood sculptures. This lab has been running a continuous test on wood structures glued with CA glues and have reported findings which say the glues fair well under dry conditions, but are effected by trace amounts of moisture.

CA glues have two kinds of bases Butyl and Ethyl, of the two the Butyl based CA seems to last longer under adverse conditions. Many luthiers depend on CA glues to do work such as bindings ( which in my opinion is pure folly and totally incorrect) or to glue parts back together like broken corners on violin bow parts. CA glues seem to be a good long lasting repair on dense non porous woods like Ebony and woods like rosewood. However the long lasting effects of gluing woods of different porosity together has yet to stand the test of time.

The connection between spruce and a hard wood like rosewood is what is up for speculation. How long with a joint between to different materials last under stress conditions and if you add the possibility of moisture opening a closing the joint due to expansion and contraction? The Canadian research lab speculated that some CA glue could have a life time of perhaps 80 years.

I stick with the hot hide animal protein glues, no sense in getting a bunch of stuff on there that is too brittle or too soft. Luthiers have gone in circles about glues for years and with the exceptions of a few instances where synthetic glues are valuable most agree now that hot hide glue is the base glue. In the case of flamenco guitars hide glue or a high quality fresh PVA type glue is essential. Other types of guitars require some special uses of epoxies, CA glue, Polyurethane glues etc.

The use of hot glue gun glue on the Valencia guitars will eventually fail, whether it fails under compression or stress from impact or over time, it will release at some point. Even hide glue will eventually release, but it has the quality of being water soluable and the protein bonds have been proven to last for hundreds an hundreds of years. When hide glue does break down due to dessication is can be easily removed and reapplied and the renewed joint can last several more decades to hundreds of years.

Everyone should glue guitars together with hot glue gun glue, that way I and others as repair people would never have a lack of work reconstructing instruments which fall apart in a few years.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 9 2012 18:45:27
 
Ricardo

Posts: 15201
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Hot Glue Gun Action (in reply to estebanana

quote:

The use of hot glue gun glue on the Valencia guitars will eventually fail, w


again....WHICH guitar from Valencia?????

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 9 2012 19:06:25
 
estebanana

Posts: 9416
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Hot Glue Gun Action (in reply to estebanana

Probably various ones- since the labels are interchangable. The factories probably offer several construction options and prices to those ordering batches of guitars. I would not know anything about that. I was just surprised to see glue gun glue.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 9 2012 19:25:51
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Hot Glue Gun Action (in reply to estebanana

So this guitar has a Valencia, Made in Spain label... Who can say that it was made in Spain??? Lots of stories......

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2012 7:52:18
 
estebanana

Posts: 9416
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Hot Glue Gun Action (in reply to Anders Eliasson

quote:

So this guitar has a Valencia, Made in Spain label... Who can say that it was made in Spain??? Lots of stories......


Good point. Valencia has a port, lots of container ships go in and out.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2012 17:20:05
 
Ricardo

Posts: 15201
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Hot Glue Gun Action (in reply to estebanana

quote:

A Valencia factory guitar passed through the shop for some repair work. Part of the back fell apart.


Ok, last attempt.....WHAT WAS WRITTEN ON THE LABEL of the guitar you did the work on.....

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2012 22:44:29
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: Hot Glue Gun Action (in reply to Ricardo

C... Co... Cordoba!

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Фламенко
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2012 23:06:17
 
estebanana

Posts: 9416
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Hot Glue Gun Action (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Ok, last attempt.....WHAT WAS WRITTEN ON THE LABEL of the guitar you did the work on.....


I sent you a private email yesterday with that information.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2012 23:09:17
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Hot Glue Gun Action (in reply to estebanana

Stephen.. You´re a softie. He had already given up. It was his last attempt... You have to be tougher. These flamenco guitarists need a hard hand. If not, they start whining.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 11 2012 8:21:57
 
Ricardo

Posts: 15201
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Hot Glue Gun Action (in reply to estebanana

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

quote:

Ok, last attempt.....WHAT WAS WRITTEN ON THE LABEL of the guitar you did the work on.....


I sent you a private email yesterday with that information.

Ok thanks, it was in my spam bin sorry. I don't see the big deal saying the name in public, facts are facts. But I will honor your request for secrecy.

Ricardo

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 11 2012 19:31:25
 
mrgearbox

 

Posts: 24
Joined: Feb. 25 2011
 

RE: Hot Glue Gun Action (in reply to estebanana

Estebanana - If you'd care to share via pm, I'm real curious who this is. An upcoming purchase might get put on hold indefinitely.. Any help would be great!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 21 2012 4:01:05
 
bluesbuster

Posts: 56
Joined: Mar. 9 2011
From: Los Angeles

RE: Hot Glue Gun Action (in reply to estebanana

Just name the brand already
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 24 2012 6:48:02
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