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RE: Happy New Year!
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3460
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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 RE: Happy New Year! (in reply to edguerin)
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I had the great good fortune of attending a New Year's concert with the National Symphony Orchestra at the Kennedy Center in Washington, DC. The highlight was Pepe Romero, who, as guest artist, performed "Concierto de Aranjuez" and a composition by his father Celedonio. It was stunning, and it set my course for the New Year in 2012. He performed it with a guitar made by his son.
Here's wishing all on the Foro a prosperous, interesting, and flamenco-filled year in 2012.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jan. 2 2012 2:24:04
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: Happy New Year! (in reply to estebanana)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
My only answer to you Ruphie is that we create our own culture as we go along. Nothing is permanent and if you think about that and make good culture as you go.... well or try, what else can be bad?
In respect of menkind and its effects on habitat and fellow creatures: Delayed response.
Ignorance, once an anthropolgical buffer for intellectually incapable hominids facing threats and drastic changes of a mighty nature, is being still in place at the actual situation of a now fragile and dependent environment.
quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
The Earth will eventually cool and die or fly into the Sun. The Sun will fold in on itself by it's own gravity. The gravity will disappear into another space in space and draw a new bunch of dust and ice crystals together to form more life. That will not be permanent either. Things are perfect because matter keeps disintegrating and making new solar systems which support new life, which births new kinds of music.
Rinse, repeat.
Sometimes its is appropriate to watch matters from a distanced / general / philosophical point of view, and sometimes perspective on immemdiate level is adequate.
Astronomical dimensions of space are not really suit eyepiece to watch and judge ongoings on a blue planet at the edge of one of countless galaxies; as the struggles and sensations of the planets creatures are not at all evened out just by their minute time dimensions in regard of universe.
These sensations are fully there within their own corresponding dimension of space and time, completely regardless of superiour space proportions of material, movement and passing.
And it does matter on proportionate level, whether an indescribably lavish and complex evolution was allowed to continue for another 3 billion years that your very galactical conditions should provide, or be terminated by a single species stupidity that is so much entangled in psycho pathological ways of screwing over underdogs and heaping that it can´t see farther anymore than to its god damned belly button.
Super novas, black holes and what have you in space are not more in existance than the wonder of cub of a snow leopard somewhere in the Himalaya. Notwithstanding that the Himalaya won´t even equal a mote of giant clouds that might currently be blown by a super nova to establish a future solar system or suck into a black hole to vanish.
Universal whereabouts become null, disappearing into their own actual category, the minute that you watch a healthy Siberian tiger ( of which by now there have remained only 300 in the shrinking wilderness).
Wild majesty and noble appearance like no other, not hundred thousands of light years away but right there, concrete and retracable in its very own right and dimension.
Able to tear you into pieces and play ball with your head, yet just wanting to be left alone on its way.
It appears absolutely clear to me, that entelechy is the wrong attitude at stake.
After all, we are about to kill this earths creatures FOR NO REASON.
Unnecessarily; totally unnecessarily, you must know.
And comments that refer to post WWII economical situations indicate how people have not yet nearly understood the actual ecological status quo.
It is being scientifically ascertained that there has never occured a similarly broad and accelerating lapse in earths history.
Don´t let yourself be mislead by claims that every 100 million years all creatures above the size of a house cat would be wiped from earths surface, as if things were to be recovering in a blink and anyways.
This case is basically different from earths past 3 billion years and its up and downs of evolutionary developments. ( Which is why aware scientists have grounded international associations trying to make this clear to the people.)
If we continue staying intellectually frigid as is, we will be leaving this planet with its organic recovering abilities snuffed out.
No conventional post war situation that could be recovered from to build playstations or LED-TVs to then watch African wildlife on.
We are not only at irretrievable destruction, but before all, for nothing but insanity.
We might be having the hypothetical right to bring hell over ourselves, but unlike arbitrary religious books that claim the rest of creatures to be subordinate / bound to our opine and will, we in fact do not have whatsoever right to subjugate and choke fellow beings that are not in any way connected nor due to our needless and cruel insanity.
This is a level of issue discrete from the 15 billion years of space and its category of order of events.
It is very clearly within our own responsibility and at embarrassing undertax of our actual intellectual and emotional capacity.
Ruphus
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Date Jan. 2 2012 14:05:11
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: Happy New Year! (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
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"Ignorant swine" implies humiliating and intentional insult, which may be or maybe not your perception, but is not at all what I am occupied with. - Lesser even with someone whom I sympathize with.
Yes, your mentioning of economical shortcomings around WWII appeared to me as if it was to say `We have overcome worse crisis, and will overcome the current one just as well´.
In case of having misunderstood that, I sincerely apologize.
Beyound / apart of that individual example however, ignorance about global condition is in fact unbelievable, and reason for a quite obvious destruction that will soon be badly surprising the vast majority of menkind, whereas it shouldn´t at all, for related information, increasing measures and numbers having been available since decades now.
As to your question why I as part of a minority are being aware of the devastation while most people are not, independently of their school education, intelligence or whatever superficial clue: I don´t know.
That means, ... I know of the ignorances background, for being somewhat informed on policies and psychology; but I do not know why it does not fully affect all of the people.
In fact I have been long since wondering why, and just last week my cousin told me abhout a two-part documentary on German TV about brain function and free will, which with its report on latest findings finally seems to provide some clue to the answer.
As a whole we are worse than just ignorant swine.
( To the poor actual pigs out there: No offence intended!  )
Ruphus
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Date Jan. 2 2012 17:59:36
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3432
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: Happy New Year! (in reply to Ruphus)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ruphus
As a whole we are worse than just ignorant swine.
( To the poor actual pigs out there: No offence intended! )
Ruphus
We are worse than ignorant swine only because we are more numerous and powerful. If you have seen a landscape devastated by an overpopulation of wild pigs, as occurs in much of Texas, you would see why I say so.
We humans do our best to exterminate these pestilential pigs because they damage our crops and pastures. They have proven to be clever and persistent opponents. It's not clear who is winning the battle, if anyone. In many places it looks like it's the pigs.
A vigorous population of wolves, pumas and jaguars would do a better job than we do, but we got rid of them long ago. Well, not that long ago--there were still a handful of tigres [jaguars] in South Texas when I was ten years old. Now the tigrillos [ocelots] and jaguarundis are as good as gone. Damn.
We seem unwittingly bent upon exterminating ourselves by damaging the planet.
Perhaps our fate is the same as that of evolution's other faulty products. It's a shame we seem poised to take so many others with us.
In my prosperous neighborhood, every adult I have met has a university education, every teenager takes school seriously and plans to study at university. I have yet to encounter anyone who disagrees when I make a passing remark about ecological damage. People vote for "green" alternatives to energy production, they vote for programs to reduce solid waste and to conserve water, all at considerable expense to themselves.
I am sure these policies are opposed by a large, less prosperous group of citizens. The economic impact on them is proportionally much greater. A large number are either uninformed about or openly skeptical of environmental damage. But they don't vote in as large numbers as the more ecologically concerned.
It seems likely that next spring we will have passed to "stage 3 drought conditions." As presently written, city laws will prohibit any irrigation of landscaping. The city council is considering amending the law to allow the preservation of trees.
But I don't foresee any radical alteration to our city's lifestyle without the occurrence of some major crisis, readily perceptible to all.
Ignorance or opposition to news of ecological crisis are not at all mysterious to me. After a lifetime of applying them, Newtonian mechanics and Maxwellian electromagnetics are second nature to me. I have a lifetime of academic interest in relativity and quantum mechanics. Yet almost every week some educated and intelligent person on some internet forum I frequent displays not just ignorance, but profound misunderstanding of these subjects. Even more remarkable, the most successful radar receiver designer I have ever known, once mentioned to me that Einstein had it all wrong about relativity! I didn't pursue the subject.
People hotly deny the theories of relativity, evolution and quantum mechanics because their implications are strongly counter-intuitive, and because they don't understand the theories in the first place, nor the experimental evidence that supports them.
Parallel processes are at work in ignorance or denial of ecological damage. For people doing the most damage, life seems to go on pretty much as before. All this noise about global warming, habitat destruction, species extinction must be wild exaggeration, or some diabolical plot hatched by an evil political faction who want to wreck the economy by taxing carbon emissions. People are like the farmer who said, when his cow died, "She never did that before."
Ignorance and denial are, and have been a prevailing human condition throughout the history of the race. Galileo was placed under arrest as recently as the year my ancestors came to America. The Pope excoriated Darwin as a perverter of youth less than 150 years ago. Before Pearl Harbor the great majority of Americans were not just content to ignore the Nazis and the Japanese Empire, they insisted that they should not be interfered with. Lysenko's aberrant "biology" was asserted by Stalin's regime while I was in high school.
I'm sure that the arrest of Galileo and the vilification of Darwin were supported by the great majority of those who knew anything about them. Walk down the sidewalk in Austin for a few minutes tomorrow and you will meet a dozen people who will vilify Darwin.
I don't think ignorance and denial are going to disappear any time soon. I think it very likely that collective behavior will change only in reaction to some severe shock, not through rationality.
We outwitted our predators long ago. We are as clever and persistent as the pigs.
Still, I find it possible to enjoy some of the simple pleasures life affords.
Happy New Year!
Oink!
RNJ
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Date Jan. 2 2012 19:48:07
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: Happy New Year! (in reply to XXX)
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Ya Richard,
It´s been a pleasure to read your post with all the very intelligent observation in there!
There are two points however that appear questionable to me.
The one and minor one is about damages through pigs.
It is very true that an imbalance of species will be detrimental to an ecological system; and you are right that unfortunately predators are missing to keep the pigs in healthy numbers ( and in genetic shape ).
Yet, it seems worth mentioning that damages through pigs don´t compare to fundamental and lasting damages through thoughtless humans. After all the pigs stirring is being said to having the advantage of loosening up soil and in the end enriching floras diversity in the forest.
The other, major one is the question whether education could change something on human ignorance.
As times of anthropologically needed ignorance are over, I think that a corresponding culture should certainly be helping the case.
Related upbringing should enable awareness of how we are a part of the whole / needing fellow species for to be human in the first place. ( The missing of which being what disturbs me the most of all.)
Next, it should be unquestionable how culture determines empathical abilities. ( Potentially making people at the least reduce meat consumption, whichs overly production has evolved into a considerable part of environmental destruction. - If not making people request decent breeding conditions / better even pushing forward artificial meat production, and even animal rights.)
And finally, it shouldn´t take too much of common knowledge to make people understand that new species ( after extinction ) won´t be popping up soon afterwards anyway, like mushrooms would after a rain season. ( Another misconception I increasingly note.)
-
What gives me desperate feelings is the impression that the vast majority of menkind does not remotely realize what it means, when the crown of evolution like the big five and others disappear for good.
I think to see them watching all this extinction without any consideration and emotional response. As if they were observing something ordinary like leaves falling in autumn. ( Like `So what, things be back to order next spring.´)
All this intellectual frigidity has to do with ways of thinking, which again are a matter of education.
There are clear and bold impulses missing at home, in school, and before all in major media.
The main place-makers there still being secondaries like economical hardship / worries / unemployment, lousy music, VIPS personal schedules, latest gadgets etc., which may all have their place;
but currently headlines everywhere should be about primary vital issues.
Just a minimum of rational correspondence, that is not given.
People follow what is hip.
You give them Lady gaga all day long and that is what they will be busy with.
You alternatively give them consideration about a fading environment and they will find it en vogue to pursue that.
Where I am now 99% of the kids grow up without any whatsoever experience with animals.
Does it wonder that individuals grown up that way have near zero empathical abilities, not to mention any environmental concerns?
We are complete cultural animals, which again indicates to what degree education matters for us.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Deniz
Throughout history, capitalism has always exploited different kinds of resourcess, and often overexploited so that only wars could help meeting the demand. This doesnt even have to be bad intentions, its just inherent to how our economy works.
Which again is bad intention. The votiv of accumulating sumptuous wealth, regardless.
BTW, media.
Imagine what would be if the media would continously release scientifically based articles about the psychosis and insatiable inferiourity complex that causes boundless appropriation.
New trends can be set.
Only not, as long as the media are being owned by the insatiable themselves; naturally.
Ruphus
PS:
Friends, try to stay away from Mitsubishi products. This is one of the most devastating combines, who even aims at environmental destruction, because of price gauging for stockpiled products.
They used to be No.1 in lumbering primary forests, until the Chinese keeled over.
Now they are No.1 in emptying the oceans. And as over 90% of fishable contents have been emptied already, they are riggidly skimming of the southern polar sea, despite international prohibition.
The approaching exctinction of the blue-fin tuna fish in fact meets their obviously intended business plans, as they have hoarded at - 60°C tenth of thousands of tons of this fish ( which long since now costs hundreds of bucks per kilo in Japan and China ), which will result in another racketeering dorado for them, after the tuna - thanks to their own efforts- will not be tracable anymore.
Some combines do not just destroy environment as collateral damage for to keep autrageous margins going at max.
Som actually destroy intentionally, following sick future business concepts.
Mitsubishi belongs to that kind.
I guess with the self-pathed cockaigne that they live in, they could care less about, whether you buy their cars and TVs or not.
But you will at least not be actively kicking your kids´ and grandson´s fate, if you abstain from buying Mitsubishi ware.
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Date Jan. 3 2012 6:13:19
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: Happy New Year! (in reply to BarkellWH)
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Hi KMM177,
Internet access is quite restricted here, indeed.
But it still allows me to read the site of one of the main German papers. Also friends bring me prints every other time, and reflect to me personally about what´s going on.
Further, there is receive of 3 German TV channels, and others that I check out regularly.
Sure, would it be great if I underestimated the situation, and I do notice certain progress.
Be it little children who thanks to their individual teachers start appreciating nature and show concern at amazingly young age, be it promissing technology ( most encouraging of all!) or occasional measures taken by governments.
Yet, things appear to be much too much trailing behind urgent demands.
It´s got be considered that a future / eventually adequate awareness of the people would only be preliminary stage to sizable action. For it is the industry that reigns, not the people.
And the industries intention to give way can be evaluated not only by historic policies, but also at international climate summits.
The stubborness with which they discard scientifical surveys and prognosis, only for to cling to traditional short term profits is beyound reason and cognition. Just as if these spoiled rulers were out of this very world.
Obviously you can´t expect from individuals who own residences in the most blooming parts of the world / lingering in first-class hotels exclusively and who wouldn´t yet touch an environmental report with tweezers, to agree into production rearrangements / long term investments or even just 20% less of common profit rates.
Simply because it isn´t their cattle that croaks of thirst, nor their homes that are being flooded.
After all, the leaders of our societies have come to where they are by giving no rats ass about surrounding and global matters. It is their very speciality.
Scientists who are not corrupted and being engaged in seriously ascertaining and calculating the ecological situation, state that it would be uncertain whether higher developed life on earth can be brought off, if we fully turned around immediately. With the aftereffects of former pollution yet to come, it could be too late already now.
In fact, from what I know that is rather how it seems to be.
This is to point out what we can expect at current pace of awareness and measures of prophylaxis and repair.
Bad enough, "repair" often won´t be what we hope it should be.
Reforesting will only improve CO² condition after the seedlings have passed the age of 30 years. And yet it won´t ever substitute the former refugee and bio diversity that a primary forest once presented.
Same with returning animals to the wild.
Both, specimens from captivity and specimens from breeding stations will not be able to re-establish natural conditions.
Elephants, chimpanzees and other of higher developed species are dependent on the individual culture of their wild ancestors. Released from captivitys unnaturalness they are unable to regain the social finesse that used to provide the survival of the species.
Released elephant males know nothing about the matriarchate of their species etc., not to mention individual culture of their individual region. They turn out hazardous for existing herds. Just to name it as an example.
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I hope that you are right with seeing more progress than I do.
Yet, what we should have would be daily headlines on ecology on first page.
I claim that it needs headlines like say "At least 8000 needed for survival, only 3000 of species X in existance". One month later: "Only 2800 remaining!" Next month: "Only 2600 counted!" etc.
And that every single day. Press, news, radio, internet, every medium.
There has got to be an umbilical cord to the status quo, to create adequacy.
About whales, sharks, polar bears, tigers, rhinos, lions, extincting plants, water levels and so on.
And all the secondary stuff like what Merkel or Madonna does or says got to be pushed to the third and fourth page.
With all papers. Not just in the industrialized countries ( that you must be referring to), but also in all of Asia and Africa.
Since, what we are having now, with fellow creatures perishing off the radar on side; that is absurdity.
Ruphus
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Date Jan. 3 2012 10:32:00
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KMMI77
Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under
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RE: Happy New Year! (in reply to Ruphus)
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quote:
It´s got be considered that a future / eventually adequate awareness of the people would only be preliminary stage to sizable action. For it is the industry that reigns, not the people.
thanks for the reply ruphus,
It will even be difficult to realize when we reach this starting point, If as you say, It is even possible?
The enormous complexity of resolving so many deep issues is bamboozling. Not just within nature and society. I lack understanding in so many areas. Even areas i find of interest. But yes, turning a blind eye to reality is absurdity.
I wonder if we will collectively wake up to the point where we "willingly" make the necessary changes to our lifestyles and behavior? I agree that the willingness could come from the right type of education.
But once again, education presents difficulties when it comes to mans given ability to create a collective experience here, and then, determining what it should be and what is right? Not to mention that people tend to experience not only what is consciously good, but take chances and follow desires. Bamboozling! On the positive side, I do believe we have the "given" ability to find it, or as you say, reason.
_____________________________
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Date Jan. 3 2012 11:28:30
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: Happy New Year! (in reply to BarkellWH)
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So true, it is difficult to nearly do the right thing.
I just returned from a neighbouring lot where a wild stray dog has given birth to 10 or even 11 puppies.
Today she must have dragged one of the puppies aside and would not respond to his whimper and crying.
So, stupid me went and brought it back to the bowl, first time realzing how many they are ( been keeping distance to not scare her away ).
Yet, after returning home I first realized that I have been inappropriately interfering.
She just can´t nurish them all, and the bigger they get the less ( now 2 weeks old ). The area around her teats already looks bloody red and might be inflammed, and she has started resting in a distance to take breaks.
She will probably be forced to sort them out one by one until the puppies be maybe half in number. And I must have only prolonged the agony with clueless action.
I must ignore what is happening and constrict to feeding her ( daily now, since she farrowed).
Erring is so much more easier than not, even if you care and try to be conclusive.
And yet, in sight of society, justice and reasonable proceeding things could be fundamentally more clear and easy if our basic thinking hadn´t been shaped by privileged reign and its specific aims.
We have been robbed of sight and knowledge of basic coherence.
Of the understanding of actual democracy and of ethics.
We have been made to wittness and accept expropriation of common property, of voice, of labour and lifetime and of simple circumstances like the right on unchecked being of fellow men and creature.
At the anthropological and intellectual state that we should be since thousands of years now, the realizing of such selfevident circumstances should be nobrainer.
Sure, would we still be struggling with a bunch of philosophical questions and individually mistaking on a daily basis, but the appalling incoherency, injustice and cruelty would not be in place as is.
Without the manipulation of a pathologic minority there would be no overpopulation, no hardship, no imposed treatmill.
Synergy and technology would be developing on behalf of community. Energy and reusable ressource would be solved since decades at least, nature intact and fellow creature unmolested.
And ignorance would not be needed anymore and anyway by self-confident, mentally robust humans.
Ruphus
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Date Jan. 3 2012 14:03:07
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Ricardo
Posts: 14845
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Happy New Year! (in reply to estebanana)
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quote:
The Earth will eventually cool and die or fly into the Sun. The Sun will fold in on itself by it's own gravity. The gravity will disappear into another space in space and draw a new bunch of dust and ice crystals together to form more life. That will not be permanent either. Things are perfect because matter keeps disintegrating and making new solar systems which support new life, which births new kinds of music.
Happy new year. Um, just a couple things. Earth won't fly into the sun ever, the sun is not massive enough to fold in on itself nor explode ever. There is a chance that intelligent life does not exist elsewhere, and a chance that if it DOES exist, for whatever reasons "Music" is unique to humans. Flamenco for example is 100% unique and when it is gone, it will be gone forever. (except for of course radio and TV brodcasts of it which in theory could be intercepted and stored by some ET intelligence.)
Here is what IS gonna happen. ELE (extinction level events) do happen to all living things that ever were on earth. Usually they are caused by Bolide impacts (giant F ing Rocks from space that crash into the earth at regular intervals). We have catelogued most big rocks that could cause this again, so considering we are first species in history to do this, we have a chance to survive. The fact is we affect the lives of other animals, sad as it is, is simply part of nature too. Cry about but move on please. All life goes extinct. Only humans have some small chance.
Now the sun will die even though it won't collapse or explode. If we some how manage to survive extinction despite the male ego (basic cause of all Ruphus's pessimism regarding human behavior) we must leave the planet at some point to continue living. In a few billion years the sun will start to die. This process involves the sun swelling up to about the size of the orbit of jupiter, so while the earth won't "fly into" the sun, it will be consumed as all the other inner planets. The final death involves shedding of outer layers of star material in a beautiful event forming a "planetary nebula"...go check some pictures of those. So if we have not yet left the solar system at that point, all human history will be erased at that point. Perhaps we will leave behind some plastic and styrofoam which will be a nice contribution to the universe.
But not all will be lost. We have already sent out probes in space, one that contains a gold record of pictures and sound of earth. I doubt flamenco, but at least some bach and chuck berry and stuff like that. That will last for eons, maybe "forever" whatever that means. I guess it only truly matters if some intelligence gets a hold of it and understand its meaning. Still, it is pretty nice thought. The Radio transmissions are also a hope for the future, even though they are weak, they travel "forever" into space as well. Internet suff....no...that will all definantly evaporate. 
So Ruphus is correct but it is simply a matter of overcoming the male ego....very difficult considering it is constantly building up thanks the the female counter part's manic emotional state of fluctuation. If we can evolve past these two simple problems, then we have a chance to turn it all around, work together to survive as a species. I mean, it is not "insanity" only, the simple fact that we have evolved intelligent beings that can look past ego for a moment to understand our place on the time line of history, and create a nuclear energy and other technology, and look to the stars for expansion, means we have hope. So cheer up.
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Jan. 3 2012 14:47:19
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3460
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Happy New Year! (in reply to XXX)
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quote:
Throughout history, capitalism has always exploited different kinds of resourcess, and often overexploited so that only wars could help meeting the demand.
It is not just Capitalism that has exploited and overexploited different kinds of resources. The Soviet Union with its state-owned command economy created huge areas of destruction within its borders due to inefficient overexploitation of resources. The Aral Sea is drying up because of the diversion of rivers for growing cotton. In Rumania, there were whole towns blackened by soot from inefficient heavy industry. And the USSR entangled all of Eastern Europe within its statist economic tentacles, to the detriment of both effeciency and the public well-being.
The problem of exploitation of resources (and the resulting inefficiencies and conflicts) is not the result of a particular economic system. Historically, long before Capitalism, from pre-Feudal to Feudal, down through Mercantilist, and including Capitalism, there have been political entities exploiting resources and engaging in conflicts over control of resources. Britain, Spain, Russia, Latin America (The War of the Pacific between Chile and Peru, and others), and a host of other examples should suffice. The primary problem is the human species, not particular economic systems. Any economic system, whether Capitalist, Socialist, Communist, or primitive Hunter-Gatherer, has the capacity to lend itself to exploitation and conflict against neighbors who have valuable resources.
Once again, in spite of the many different opinions on this and other subjects on the Foro (and in my opinion, those differences of opinion are what make the Foro interesting), a very Happy New Year and flamenco-filled 2012 to all.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jan. 3 2012 18:30:55
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3432
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: Happy New Year! (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
So Ruphus is correct but it is simply a matter of overcoming the male ego....very difficult considering it is constantly building up thanks the the female counter part's manic emotional state of fluctuation. If we can evolve past these two simple problems, then we have a chance to turn it all around, work together to survive as a species.
As far as I know, yeast do not manifest either a male or a female ego. Most would say they manifest no ego at all. Yet they are quite capable of driving themseles into local extinction through the over-exploitation of their environment. We profit from this every time we have a glass of wine.
So is it not plausible that extinguishing the male ego might not stop the sequence of over population, environmental destruction and population collapse?
As far as escaping to other planets....My brother's high school senior term paper in 1952 was about space travel. We lived in Washington, DC where there were great facilities for research. Our well liked English teacher gave him an A-, commenting, "Well written, but a little far-fetched, don't you think?"
Around fifty years later my brother attended a high school reunion. He took mischievous pleasure in showing the paper to our teacher. In the interim, my brother had been the head of the Flight Medicine Department at the NASA Manned Space Flight Center in Houston, throughout the Apollo moon landing program.
He and his department were responsible for determining and maintaining the astronauts' fitness to fly, for specifying the primary and backup life support systems, for pioneering medical telemetry, for the Lunar Receiving Laboratory, the pioneering biological containment facility to guard against moon microbes, etc. etc.
I was familiar with the Apollo program only at second hand, but I can testify that there was an abundance of male ego involved.
There is far, far less interest in human space travel now than there was in the 1960's-1970's, both by the public at large and within government, even within NASA itself. This is not to say interest is totally absent. I participated in a peripheral way in the development of Space-X's rocket program, and I can assure you from personal acquaintance that Elon Musk, the CEO and much of his team are true space travel junkies.
The question is, will the rate of development of space travel to a different solar system, with its huge technical problems, outpace our capacity for self-destruction? For me, it is an open question.
We know where many of the potentially dangerous big space rocks are, near the Earth. But any day now one could come zooming in from the Oort cloud out beyond Pluto. There's very little research even into diverting one of the near-earth rocks from a collisions course. Last time I read something about it, U.S. government agencies were still debating which one was responsible for the problem.
And speaking of what will happen, the cosmologists are predicting a continued expansion of the universe, with a resulting heat death. One by one, the stars will die, never to be lit up again. But cosmology has undergone a number of significant revolutions since I was a teenager, so, ¿Quien sabe?
Despite the gloom I have spread in my last few posts, I feel a sizable ray of optimism about the medium term future of our race. We have muddled through a number of catastrophes. But I share the alarm that the fairly near term may be pretty rough, unless we are somehow shocked into changing our ways.
All the best, and thanks for your informative posts on the forum.
RNJ
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Date Jan. 3 2012 19:16:46
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: Happy New Year! (in reply to BarkellWH)
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Preconditioned issues
like the male exhibition one, to me appear of less difficulty to arrange with, provided a culture of intellectual and social paragon. I think at the corresponding cultural peak of past millenium this was nicely demonstrated already by the avantgarde of past centuries late sixties and seventies and their peaceful and unpretentious trend.
And before that there were other examples like in ancient Greece etc. when macho behaviour had been left behind.
In contrast to the one of inferiority complex resulting from unfulfilled drives during upbringing. It´s thirst of vain self-authentication yields an insatiable avarice that cannot be overcomed by any rational approach or impulse. This is what shapes reckless irrational personalities who cannot stop accumulating, nor empathize in sight of misfortune and devastation their primitive urge causes.
A societal condition that provides attentive and liberal, natural and satisfactory upbringing, again, counters the treatmill said pathology has established.
It is the contradiction between democracy and oligarchy.
Playing down inhumane principles of capitalism by referring to the Soviet Union as allegedly contrasting example ...
It would be helpful to a general understanding if people realized the difference between labelling and contents.
The Soviet Union used to be called "socio capitalism" by its critiques for a reason.
Seeking new habitats in space
seems to be childrens´dream just like of the classical engine driver or of becoming a ringmaster.
An idea that I dislike ever since, because of the implied giving up on earth and because of an illusionary way out.
To my understanding such suggestions only enhance further the indifference on terristical matters.
An escape by conventional means ought to be completely unreal anyway. An inclosed group of humans could never make it through thousands of travelling years anyway.
Theoretically there could be solutions like an ion drive ( still resulting in ages long travels) or much better even compression of space ( true space jump).
And as there are more and more planets being sighted, you might even be hoping for one with stable conditions ...
But hardly will you find any in reach that could only remotely equal the beauty and diversity of our yet blue planet.
And I claim that it is this very habitat on earth that conditions our empathical abilities and integrity.
That humans will never be natural anywhere else.
As some of the posts reveal, there exists too little consideration of our special integration into earths flora and fauna.
If you like, most practical exterristical resumption anywhere in space would be after some kind of metamorphosis.
In opposition to current science, I believe that up from a certain degree of calculation abilities actual consciousness can emerge.
You see those self-adapting and -repairing robots in early stage?
They could possibly become our resumption.
After an intial stage of misuse as war slave etc. these might develop themselves into ever more intelligent and adaptable artificial life, emancipating, capable to morph however needed by nano technology, able to survive anywhere and autarc.
And unlike todays sci-fi authors who paint such creation as evil, they shall logically be turning into the most reasonable creation thinkable.
Should there still be humans alive they will probably cherish them as their ancestors, help them nurishing and educating like never before. They could even be taking our living remains to some refugee in space.
But it appears only contra productive to even think about thelike, while mother earth is about to desert under our feet.
We should come to understand what it will be meaning to us when creatures like wolves or bears won´t roam on earth anymore.
Before that, reasonable weighing and analysis of status quo can´t be had.
Huge vulcanos and orbiting ...
The Yellow Stone is inflating. ( If I recall that correctly, rising ~ 70 cm yearly now.)
As Richard pointed out, rocks could be out of sight whichs passing by would suffice to pull the earth out of its steady cycle.
But regardless of the unforeseeable, we do have good reason to address urgently given conditions before the eyes.
This ins no whining. It is appreciation.
Have you ever seen a grasshopper turning around when you follow him with your fingertip, facing "the chaser" like a boxer?
How many billions of years does it take to bring off such perfect miniature.
Do you notice the increasing scientifical insights on animal awareness and skillfulness?
Why will the tiger normally not kill you?
Why does an octopus become so intelligent despite its only 2 years of lifetime?
We are definitly far from appreciating the wonders next to us.
And it shows.
Ruphus
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Date Jan. 4 2012 6:56:38
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Ricardo
Posts: 14845
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Happy New Year! (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
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quote:
As far as I know, yeast do not manifest either a male or a female ego. Most would say they manifest no ego at all. Yet they are quite capable of driving themseles into local extinction through the over-exploitation of their environment. We profit from this every time we have a glass of wine.
So is it not plausible that extinguishing the male ego might not stop the sequence of over population, environmental destruction and population collapse?
of course plausible...but again to be clear we are only species that has a SMALL chance to survive....yeast for example don't have intelligence or logic or technology to continue. Over pop is a consequence again of male ego (I need more of myself to go around and need to prove it to those women over there) and female emotional gaming. Yeast or any other creature would not say, think of the future and use birth control.
quote:
He took mischievous pleasure in showing the paper to our teacher.
That's great. I had a fun time at my high school reunion too.
quote:
There is far, far less interest in human space travel now than there was in the 1960's-1970's, both by the public at large and within government, even within NASA itself. This is not to say interest is totally absent. I participated in a peripheral way in the development of Space-X's rocket program, and I can assure you from personal acquaintance that Elon Musk, the CEO and much of his team are true space travel junkies.
The question is, will the rate of development of space travel to a different solar system, with its huge technical problems, outpace our capacity for self-destruction? For me, it is an open question.
Well, we know more about limitations and stellar evolution and such. It is pointless in super long run to only explore short term solar system possiblities (as I described about sun's death). Interstellar travel as also too many problems at this point for realistic short term expansion.... we have to think long term about species continuation. Genetic engineering is gonna be one way....again ego prevents certain concepts like "lets engineer BETTER people" cuz like how can we engineer a guy better then ourselves?  It has to happen and we almost have technology to get started on a better future now ....once we can grow out of "I need to make money so I can have a nice car to burn gas so I can get the girl and make babies...".
quote:
We know where many of the potentially dangerous big space rocks are, near the Earth. But any day now one could come zooming in from the Oort cloud out beyond Pluto.
The fact you even know that and many others do too, is again my point that there is HOPE. No other species on earth even understands the implications of that.
quote:
And speaking of what will happen, the cosmologists are predicting a continued expansion of the universe, with a resulting heat death. One by one, the stars will die, never to be lit up again. But cosmology has undergone a number of significant revolutions since I was a teenager, so, ¿Quien sabe?
Ok, but you are talking of time scales OFF THE CHART. I used the term "forever" before because there is not really such a thing. For our purposes lets say it means until all protons decay and the last black holes have evaporated....
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Jan. 4 2012 13:48:38
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3460
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Happy New Year! (in reply to mezzo)
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quote:
Touché Bill, touché. So let's continue to be frivolous. After all it's just a musical foro.
As for the 1%, I think it's rather less than the propability that you'll upload a seguiriya falseta, playing with your guitar by your hands on a flamenco foro.
But maybe i'm wrong Bill. Maybe you took some frivoles resolutions for this new year and you'll participe more actively in a more frivolous way on the foro...i hope so.
I was just being facetious with my comment about having a few more years of "serious frivolity on the Foro," Mezzo. It was to emphasize that I don't think the Laacher See volcano will blow up any time soon.
As for my participation on the Foro, I think I do so sufficiently, both on serious threads having nothing to do with flamenco (as this one has turned out to be) and on threads discussing flamenco, guitars, singers, etc. That I don't upload siguiriya falsetas played by my own hands is a function of my mediocre playing and to spare you and other members from suffering its effects. I have never claimed to be a first-rate guitarist; only one who enjoys playing at his own level and ability.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jan. 4 2012 14:23:10
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