RE: Cedar or Spruce soundboard. / Negra or classical

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RobJe

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Cedar or Spruce soundboard. / Ne... (in reply to Patrick)

quote:

This may have been “one” of his guitars, but I have my doubt’s this is the one he played all the time.

Looks like a genuine Ramirez and if so, it suggests that Manolo's guitars were not just reworked classicals. All the Ramiez blancas of this period had 655 mm scale length.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 11 2011 10:45:58

Patrick

Posts: 1189
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Portland, Oregon

RE: Cedar or Spruce soundboard. / Ne... (in reply to RobJe)

quote:

Looks like a genuine Ramirez and if so, it suggests that Manolo's guitars were not just reworked classicals. All the Ramiez blancas of this period had 655 mm scale length.

Yeah it's pretty interesting. Like you said, the blancas were 655, but the classicals were 664. I have no doubt it's a Ramiirez, but the one we saw him playing all the time didn't look anything like this one.

Like I said, the one I had sounded almost identical to the one he used to play and mine was a converted classical.

We may never know.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 11 2011 19:09:36

C. Vega

Posts: 379
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: Cedar or Spruce soundboard. / Ne... (in reply to RobJe)

FWIW, the Ramirez blancas from that time were a 656mm scale, not 655mm, and remain that way today.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 11 2011 19:19:53

Patrick

Posts: 1189
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Portland, Oregon

RE: Cedar or Spruce soundboard. / Ne... (in reply to RobJe)

quote:

FWIW, the Ramirez blancas from that time were a 656mm scale, not 655mm, and remain that way today.

What's a mm among friends?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 11 2011 19:46:32

Guest

RE: Cedar or Spruce soundboard. / Ne... (in reply to Patrick)

figured it was'nt the guitar used mostly by Manolo...just caught my eye and thought it may the 'type' of Ramirez in question...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 12 2011 0:47:08

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Cedar or Spruce soundboard. / Ne... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

How about this...like this way better. Manolo on Conde blanca:

Ricardo, do you know what year this Conde guitar is? Out of three master builders' styles; Barbero, Santos, and Conde, the majority of people I've talked with have voted for the older 1955 style Conde that Nino Ricardo played; by Faustino Conde. I have decided to build a reasonably priced guitar in this style to see how it fits the market for flamenco instruments.

The last time I offered this idea on my website, there was not very much interest. However, this time I'm compelled to build it for my own enjoyment; probably starting it sometime in December 2011. And if nothing happens with it, then I'll at least have a good guitar to keep up my playing technique.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 12 2011 14:39:07

RobJe

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Cedar or Spruce soundboard. / Ne... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

Ricardo, do you know what year this Conde guitar is?

According to my records of some 50 guitars of this period, the first use of the bridge design shown in the El Lebrijano video (with the inset bone inlay) came in 1963 (the first media luna appeared in 1953). So it would appear that the guitar could be 1963 or later – probably not too much later as the video is in black and white.
In case it is of any interest, my 1965 media luna still has the same bracing pattern as the1951 Barbero plan produced by Richard Brune.
Rob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2011 15:04:25

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Cedar or Spruce soundboard. / Ne... (in reply to RobJe)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RobJe

quote:

Ricardo, do you know what year this Conde guitar is?

According to my records of some 50 guitars of this period, the first use of the bridge design shown in the El Lebrijano video (with the inset bone inlay) came in 1963 (the first media luna appeared in 1953). So it would appear that the guitar could be 1963 or later – probably not too much later as the video is in black and white.
In case it is of any interest, my 1965 media luna still has the same bracing pattern as the1951 Barbero plan produced by Richard Brune.
Rob

Thanks for the closer look at it but FYI the 51 Barbero is not exactly like the Conde design, although it has some parallel comparisons. Generally the 1950's Conde has 7 fan braces with 2 bottom stiffeners that connect to the middle seam, unlike the Barbero with 5 fans across and 2 separated bottom stiffeners from the middle seam.

And the Conde harmonic bar under the sound-hole is usually straight across the top, not slanted like the Brune drawing. Also, I have a plan of a 1968 Conde that belonged to Ramon, Paco lucia's brother, and this has the older fan brace pattern like the 1955 Conde guitar that Nino Ricardo played.

My point in asking Ricardo this question was to determine if the guitar was like the 1955 model; which it could very possibly be, according to your information, and since Faustino Conde continued to make that top pattern through '68.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2011 19:05:58

Ricardo

Posts: 14852
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Cedar or Spruce soundboard. / Ne... (in reply to RobJe)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RobJe

quote:

Ricardo, do you know what year this Conde guitar is?

According to my records of some 50 guitars of this period, the first use of the bridge design shown in the El Lebrijano video (with the inset bone inlay) came in 1963 (the first media luna appeared in 1953). So it would appear that the guitar could be 1963 or later – probably not too much later as the video is in black and white.
In case it is of any interest, my 1965 media luna still has the same bracing pattern as the1951 Barbero plan produced by Richard Brune.
Rob

Video filmed 1971-73 so it could be as new as that. On the DVD, you can actually make out the rosette design too, the entire guitar look and sound is similar to my 73 so my guess is it is from 70's.

We discussed it much in the past about these guitars. The oldest I played was a 53 and it was not much different then my 73 and others that I have played from 60's and 70's in terms of sound feel and look. The N. Ricardo guitar just has a unique headstock. And the 73 guitar has the same parallel bracing pattern as the modern condes, vs the older ones I have checked that were the normal old fan style.

So for Mr. Blackshear I would say Manolo's guitar is different in the sense it has a different tie block design, different headcut (and its machines not pegs) Rosette and possibly the bracing is different too.

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2011 20:05:12

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Cedar or Spruce soundboard. / Ne... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

So for Mr. Blackshear I would say Manolo's guitar is different in the sense it has a different tie block design, different headcut (and its machines not pegs) Rosette and possibly the bracing is different too.

Ricardo

Thanks Ricardo,

By the way, the guitar seems to have a thinner box size/style so I'm going to believe that it is the older design of Faustino's that was Nino's '55 style. I have 2 1950's fan brace plans and 1 1968, and they are essentially the same pattern, with slight changes. So I'll build a 50's style with some fine-tuning concepts I've learned over the past 20 years.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2011 21:00:04

Ricardo

Posts: 14852
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Cedar or Spruce soundboard. / Ne... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

By the way, the guitar seems to have a thinner box size/style so I'm going to believe that it is the older design of Faustino's that was Nino's '55 style.

Hmm, my 73 is pretty much same skinniness as was the 53 I played.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2011 21:02:42

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Cedar or Spruce soundboard. / Ne... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

quote:

By the way, the guitar seems to have a thinner box size/style so I'm going to believe that it is the older design of Faustino's that was Nino's '55 style.

Hmm, my 73 is pretty much same skinniness as was the 53 I played.

All I'm saying, Ricardo, is that the 55 and 68 Conde's are pretty much the same in their design, perhaps with different scale lengths. And it's possible that your 73 is the same design as these older models. I'm not sure when Faustino stopped making this design, as I don't know when he passed on his dynasty. Unlike the Miguel Rodriguez family tree, I haven't kept up with the Conde family of guitar builders.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2011 22:59:56

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Cedar or Spruce soundboard. / Ne... (in reply to Patrick)

I think your right Patrick. This was probably just one of Manolo's many guitars. I think he played a cedar top Ramirez most of the time until he started using his current guitars.

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Tom Núñez
www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 1 2011 12:19:16

Patrick

Posts: 1189
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Portland, Oregon

RE: Cedar or Spruce soundboard. / Ne... (in reply to RobJe)

Tom,

It would be interesting to hear what Amelia has to say about the history of Manolo's guitars. If you get a chance, you might ask her.

Pat

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 1 2011 16:51:04

HolyEvil

Posts: 1240
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia

RE: Cedar or Spruce soundboard. / Ne... (in reply to TANúñez)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TANúñez

I think your right Patrick. This was probably just one of Manolo's many guitars. I think he played a cedar top Ramirez most of the time until he started using his current guitars.

so what guitars does manolo play now?

cheers

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 1 2011 20:13:28

etta

Posts: 343
Joined: Jan. 20 2010

RE: Cedar or Spruce soundboard. / Ne... (in reply to Patrick)

I have a Jose Bellido negra with cedar from the mid 70's with classical dimensions but with a very low action at the 12th and low at the bridge, 7mm, 664 scale. It is very light, dry, punchy, without excessive sustain, and with some of the best high and mid range I have heard. It had capo marks on the neck and had been used as a flamenco. I added tap plates. This guitar is bright, aggressive, and loud with good balance and no mush. I still prefer a blanca, but this guitar has made me balance that view.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 18 2011 14:13:07