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Posts: 15725
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Paco de Lucia at his best por So... (in reply to jg7238)
I like all of his periods. For me, his artist "peak" if he has reached such a thing, would be early 1990's. I prefer this performance from a little later with a newer tremolo, very arabic flavor, and good camera angles too:
RE: Paco de Lucia at his best por So... (in reply to Arash)
quote:
He was at his best late 90s when Luzia came out
As an artist and in terms of composition you could be correct. I personally enjoy listening to the old Paco more even though his "Entre Dos Aguas" newer version is so much better I think.
Posts: 15725
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Paco de Lucia at his best por So... (in reply to Arash)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Arash
He was at his best late 90s when Luzia came out
Personally I felt he reached a certain plateau...perhaps he moved forward a bit with Rondeña, but at least his bulerias compositions were not more relevant, and even today he seemlessly mixes his Sirocco/Zyrab material with Luzia and Cositas stuff live. Remember when everyone thought he had composed some "new stuff" and I pointed out it was just a lot of material not played live before, but from Zyrab? It worked to fool everyone because, again, I sense an artistic plateau was reached back then that is still current with modern trends.
RE: Paco de Lucia at his best por So... (in reply to jg7238)
I still think Cositas is a step forward. There are certain things in it which i havent found on any of his previous recordings. For example Patio Custodio, the first minute or so where he repeats that same notes in different rhythmic ways. That amount of syncopation is just new I think. Im sure i uploaded it somewhere on the foro.
Posts: 15725
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Paco de Lucia at his best por So... (in reply to XXX)
quote:
I still think Cositas is a step forward.
I agree he has new things and is still creative. By artistic "peak" I more mean all around as a player too. Many have pointed out that he doesn't have the same aggressive energy and in your face technique that was still present in the early 90's. Not that that is all it was about...I simply see him mellowing even as he explores new ideas compositionally.
RE: Paco de Lucia at his best por So... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo Many have pointed out that he doesn't have the same aggressive energy and in your face technique that was still present in the early 90's.
Agreed... except the picado, hehe. But maybe we dont know it, maybe he could still pull off La Barrosa or that Alegrias on LuZia (which is just as great as Barrosa IMO), even though is recent performances show a more mellow Paco. I also love those B&W videos of him on TVE, which are also on Rito. Thats the stuff i listen to/watch when i want that "bite".
But its interesting to discuss where the mellowness comes from. Is it technical things/age or is he just in a state where he doesnt feel the need to prove anybody on stage? Or maybe a change in taste?
RE: Paco de Lucia at his best por So... (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
When did Paco reach his peak technique-wise as a flamenco guitarist? In his 20's or later?
At 19, his tremolo is a bit rough in 1967 on his first solo record. By the second one in 1969, at 21, everything is technically flawless, including tremolo.
I do hope you are making a distinction between technical and artistic peak.
quote:
We know as we get older our body starts degrading.
It is not because you get older - it is because people, on average, do much less physical exercise; have a much more sedentary lifestyle. Also, playing guitar is not like sprinting or running marathons.
Posts: 3497
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: Paco de Lucia at his best por So... (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
I can't imagine old Paco can do any better than young Paco when it comes to speed.
Speed in itself does not necessarily equate to either great technique or artistic ability in flamenco. I think some people place too much of a premium on speed, viewing it as a sort of "parlor trick" that impresses their listeners, when they should be focusing more on pacing.
Bill
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And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
RE: Paco de Lucia at his best por So... (in reply to Guest)
quote:
If we do physical exercise we’ll live forever!
I thought this was in the context of the physicality of guitar playing; I said basically that guitar skills will not magically degrade just because a clock is ticking; if you keep an active lifestyle you can play really well till you drop dead rather than lose your skills while still alive. If the context were extreme physical demand, I'd have responded differently; guitar is not that, though.
Posts: 15725
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Paco de Lucia at his best por So... (in reply to devilhand)
Sadly there is not a lot of his excellent solea available on video. I believe this discussion was about the middle two (76,78) below, but here are the 4 good version that show this musical evolution. While the older ones are maybe physically hard to play, the last one is certainly mentally harder to exectute. His technique did not degrade all that much, he just lost energy as a performer in his 60’s at times, and there is so much live shows it is easier today to find mistakes than when he was young where getting filmed was a special event. I still feel Zyryab as a plateau. But in 2012, about a year and a half before his death, he was delivering that bulerias just like it was recorded in 1990, and the rondeña picados and Zyryab ending etc. If we want to be picky, we are talking a few bpm slower in general which is not much, it is still ball park in terms of speed and clean execution. Just the fire of youth was lacking.
Posts: 15725
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Paco de Lucia at his best por So... (in reply to Guest)
quote:
Segovia was doing concerts in his 90s but I doubt you would find anyone who would say he was as good then as in his prime days.
I believe the argument is that if old man segovia had taken better care physically he might have retained some guitar chops he lost near death. How much of guitar is physical vs mental might be the question. When older pdl missed notes folks said he lost technique but I disagree, he still had physical ability to execute the notes. He was more mentally tired. Mclaughlin is fast and good shape for almost 80, but he has arthritis. Exercise and yoga doesn’t cure arthritis.
RE: Paco de Lucia at his best por So... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
quote:
Segovia was doing concerts in his 90s but I doubt you would find anyone who would say he was as good then as in his prime days.
I believe the argument is that if old man segovia had taken better care physically he might have retained some guitar chops he lost near death. How much of guitar is physical vs mental might be the question. When older pdl missed notes folks said he lost technique but I disagree, he still had physical ability to execute the notes. He was more mentally tired. Mclaughlin is fast and good shape for almost 80, but he has arthritis. Exercise and yoga doesn’t cure arthritis.
Yup, that was the essence of the argument. Losing a bit of the fire to play is another matter; however technical ability - the ability of the brain, nerves and muscles to coordinate and execute as fast and complex sequences as when peak technical ability was reached at much younger age - that is not lost with age per se - if you keep "exercising" the human machine, including the brain [and don't get machine-affecting diseases], you keep the skillz.
RE: Paco de Lucia at his best por So... (in reply to Guest)
quote:
Both mental and physical ability degrade as we get older.
You make the mistake of taking a correlation for a causation. Latest research in the last 10-15 years is showing that it is mostly a correlation - the real reason is to do with the concomitant typical changes in how we live our lives as we age. Now there are studies showing people in their 80s, 90, even 100s, gaining muscle and able to do deadlifts, squats, what have you (i.e. change the typical lifestyle, get back a lot of what you thought was lost because of age). Of course it is not just muscle - all tissue (bones, etc.) is living and responds, just slower (e.g. you lift weights - your bones keep their mass to support that). The brain also adapts - if you keep challenging it, it stays sharp. In short, use it and you don't lose it.
[I don't want to argue stupid edge cases about extreme physical demands or 'living forever' or other strawmen - you know very well this was not the context and the above would not apply at the extremes]
RE: Paco de Lucia at his best por So... (in reply to Guest)
quote:
their performance will reach a peak and then decline with old age
Not with guitar playing, which is what this was about. To put another way - any highly skilled performance which does not require maximum absolute physical (incl. brain functioning) effort can be maintained 'indefinitely'; playing guitar is a good example of exactly such specialized activity requiring sub-maximal physical input. In yet other words, maximum physical effort or potential may age-decline from 100% to 80% by the time someone hits 95, say, but that does not affect a skill which needs only 40% effort/input relative to max physical input. Another random example for which the same applies is walking. If all else is the same as in your 20s, including no debilitating diseases, you will continue to be just as skilled at walking as you were then.
And the 'patronizing' characterization is hilarious: you see what you want to see, I'm afraid.
RE: Paco de Lucia at his best por So... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
I like all of his periods. For me, his artist "peak" if he has reached such a thing, would be early 1990's. I prefer this performance from a little later with a newer tremolo, very arabic flavor, and good camera angles too:
Did you mean this performance at the beginning?
quote:
Just the fire of youth was lacking.
That's an interesting point which is mentioned a lot. In terms of guitar playing or music making, what is it which is lacking? Dynamics?
RE: Paco de Lucia at his best por So... (in reply to Guest)
If you are so sick of me 'patronizing' you with my comments why did you butt in on this thread, where I was responding to devilhand, by inserting a trollish one-liner aimed at me (and even then I at first addressed it at face value - look up-thread). You are here (thread) to snipe at me, not to have a normal discussion - just like you do with others elsewhere and elsewhen. You even had a pattern of nasty sniping at devilhand from his early weeks/months apparently because it looked 'safe' to dunk on him. Maybe don't snipe but instead have a normal discussion if you don't want things to devolve into 'patronizing' comments?
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