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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Feb. 20 2021 10:15:48
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 23 2021 19:06:54
 
Piwin

Posts: 3163
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Paco de Lucia at his best por So... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

When older pdl missed notes folks said he lost technique but I disagree, he still had physical ability to execute the notes. He was more mentally tired.


Kind of what I figure about Cepero. Now that he's in his late 70s, every now and then he might miss a note, but the technique is clearly still there.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 23 2021 19:30:48
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 23 2021 20:03:37
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12673
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Paco de Lucia at his best por So... (in reply to devilhand

quote:

Did you mean this performance at the beginning?


Absolutely not. It was about Solea man! I showed the two videos in questions 1976 was his and mine was the 1978.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 23 2021 23:24:39
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12673
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Paco de Lucia at his best por So... (in reply to Guest

quote:

ORIGINAL: rasqeo77

quote:

ORIGINAL: Piwin

quote:

When older pdl missed notes folks said he lost technique but I disagree, he still had physical ability to execute the notes. He was more mentally tired.


Kind of what I figure about Cepero. Now that he's in his late 70s, every now and then he might miss a note, but the technique is clearly still there.


Really? To me there is a clear difference in the speed, fluidity and general agility of the playing in these two examples.

https://youtu.be/K0gw3sLpnt4

https://youtu.be/p5b-irEUbMU

If only he’d shed a few pounds...

Give me a break man...the guy is playing almost exactly the damn same


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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 23 2021 23:29:23
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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Feb. 20 2021 10:15:33
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 24 2021 7:45:36
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12673
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Paco de Lucia at his best por So... (in reply to Guest

quote:

Well you said it yourself - “almost”.


I meant “almost literally” the same material in there. He is not recreating the same performance but is demonstrating he absolutely could. Further, it’s none of our business really how much the guy practices in his retirement, but the main point stands that regardless if he is working on his chops like he did as a young man, he can still do it despite his age and BMI. Honestly, I don’t think his weight comes into play in a negative way at all. He was just as fat years ago ripping those insane fast picados over his elevator music rumbas. Hats off to that guy.

To be far, if the mind starts to deteriorate, it has to affect the playing somewhat. However we have the case of Escudero who had dimensia or Alzheimer’s such that he couldn’t remember friends and family, but could still play through Impetu. Explain that?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 24 2021 18:14:37
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 24 2021 19:02:43
 
kitarist

Posts: 1177
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Paco de Lucia at his best por So... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Further, it’s none of our business really how much the guy practices in his retirement, but the main point stands that regardless if he is working on his chops like he did as a young man, he can still do it despite his age and BMI. Honestly, I don’t think his weight comes into play in a negative way at all.


This made me realize I should have been more explicit about something: to make it clear that in all that I wrote above, the argument has nothing to do with bodyfat percentage - and I have not mentioned fat or dieting at all up-thread.

The argument is about exercising the muscles (not letting them atrophy from lack of use) and brain and practising the specialized skills, and one will keep the skills regardless of age as long one doesn't get sick.

Up to a point, fat percentage is completely irrelevant in this, so 'staying fit' has nothing to do with dieting or getting ripped ('up to a point' because at very high bodyfat % that starts to affect the rest of the human machine indirectly through diseases or directly through mechanical inability to maintain necessary posture or flexibility for guitar playing, say)

In the gym there is a joke that 'fat is the source of all strength' - because the strongest olympic weightlifters (largest absolute weight lifted) and strongest men as in highland games and even sumo wrestlers have the largest bodyfat percentages among athletes.

The real reason for their strength is that they also have the highest absolute amount of muscle mass, which seems naturally possible only with a very significant fat going along with it.

So no, no dieting required

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Konstantin
Foro cante accompaniment practice tracks (zip file)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 24 2021 20:49:44
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 24 2021 21:55:47
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12673
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Paco de Lucia at his best por So... (in reply to Guest

quote:

ORIGINAL: rasqeo77

You still haven’t posted any evidence to support your claims.


Wow. It’s almost like a brick wall man.


From 2:20



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 24 2021 23:31:50
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 25 2021 7:00:02
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12673
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Paco de Lucia at his best por So... (in reply to Guest

quote:

So it’s not really evidence supporting kitarist’s claim.


Mclaughlin has more swing now than when he was young... I would argue it is a bit of a technical thing to accomplish. It’s fair to say he was starting to swing like that in the 1990’s with more fluidity. He is 78. I think it is more outrageous claim that on his 80’th birthday he will suddenly lose those chops you can see in the video. He even admitted he had arthritis two years before that video, but can still play like that. Your assumption that all the old folks I posted are not as good now than they once were might be the flawed one.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 25 2021 14:07:28
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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Feb. 20 2021 10:13:16
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 25 2021 14:35:29
 
kitarist

Posts: 1177
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Paco de Lucia at his best por So... (in reply to Guest

quote:

You still haven’t posted any evidence to support your claims.


It's impossible to respond without sounding patronizing, I am afraid.

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Konstantin
Foro cante accompaniment practice tracks (zip file)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 25 2021 17:19:25
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3306
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Paco de Lucia at his best por So... (in reply to kitarist

Sabicas aged 75



and aged 76



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 25 2021 22:19:35
 
Fluknu

 

Posts: 64
Joined: Jan. 11 2021
 

RE: Paco de Lucia at his best por So... (in reply to Guest

This reminds me of a study in the 80's. They saw that young secreterarie's would type faster than older ones. But older ones would use their experience to compensate :knowledge of sentences, what would come after and so on. In the end, both had the same results in efficiency and speed. I quote from head, I don't remember where the study is anymore.

So there are probably some "compenstaion" mechanisms taking place with age on all levels (physical, mental, cultural).

Another thing that is sure and supported by many studies, is that what is not used (muscles, brain) gets lazy with age. So I guess a guitarist, to keep up, would certainly need to practice a lot.

Another thing is that Men are supposed to reach their full energy peak at 30 (fourty for women). Then it's going down.

From my point of view, aging occurs and it slows us down (have you ever watched an old dog?). Things can be done to limit that, but they remain quite mysterious, except for a few tips. Genetics, life events, life habits, and so on, come into play. This is really really complex. Probably we could isolate factors and imagine a domain where a guitarist would retain his full technical skills at 90. But I imagine he would still need some viagra for the after pary with the beautifull dancer.

As for me, I would be interested in a program to keep one's guitaristic skills in the afterlife and, if reincarnation exists, bring them back to their fullest, in the new life, as to build on it. That would be a trip :)


  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 26 2021 11:23:12
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3306
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Paco de Lucia at his best por So... (in reply to kitarist

quote:

It's impossible to respond without sounding patronizing, I am afraid.


so if the intention was to shut you up or shut you down, then it worked...

which would be ironic given that that was the accusation levelled at us in a previous thread...

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 26 2021 20:14:35
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 845
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Paco de Lucia at his best por So... (in reply to Guest

quote:

I’m not assuming it. I said earlier I may be wrong. I actually WANT to be wrong since I plan to continue playing guitar to a ripe old age so I would prefer it if kitarist’s claim is right.

Tommy Emmanuell is 65 in this video. He still kicks ass. Who's faster? Tommy or the young guy?
I hope he'll retain his agility for more years. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, it depends on how consistent you do exercises to maintain your skills. As Fluknu mentioned above other factors like genes, life style throughout your life etc. will play a major role as well.



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Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 26 2021 21:15:34
 
Mark2

Posts: 1588
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Paco de Lucia at his best por So... (in reply to kitarist

I've been thinking about this post for a few days. I remember something my first flamenco guitar teacher told me. He was a professional. He said his playing/performing demanded everything he had, and more.

I know that for me, this is also true. I worked really hard to accomplish what I managed, gave it everything, physically, emotionally, intellectually. There were gigs I did where it literally took everything I had. I know this may not be true for everyone.

There are players who are so much more advanced and/or experienced that I'm sure feel differently. My teacher's playing declined significantly as he aged. By the time I met him, he was in his late sixties, and compared to recordings he made in his youth, the technique wasn't the same. And he played, practiced, or taught most every day.

I saw Sabicas perform when he was in his late 70's or perhaps his eighties. His chops were not the ones you hear on the flamenco puro record. so, I'd disagree with your opinion.

As an aside, are there any/many 80 something surgeons? I would think probably not, but I really don't know.


quote:

ORIGINAL: kitarist

quote:

their performance will reach a peak and then decline with old age


Not with guitar playing, which is what this was about. To put another way - any highly skilled performance which does not require maximum absolute physical (incl. brain functioning) effort can be maintained 'indefinitely'; playing guitar is a good example of exactly such specialized activity requiring sub-maximal physical input. In yet other words, maximum physical effort or potential may age-decline from 100% to 80% by the time someone hits 95, say, but that does not affect a skill which needs only 40% effort/input relative to max physical input. Another random example for which the same applies is walking. If all else is the same as in your 20s, including no debilitating diseases, you will continue to be just as skilled at walking as you were then.

And the 'patronizing' characterization is hilarious: you see what you want to see, I'm afraid.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 26 2021 22:46:34
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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Feb. 20 2021 10:12:20
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 27 2021 10:13:45
Guest

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Feb. 20 2021 10:12:13
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 27 2021 10:15:09
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12673
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Paco de Lucia at his best por So... (in reply to Guest

quote:

The question is - can they retain 100% of their ability into old age?


It has been proven (in this thread by evidence) in some yes, and not so in others. Your point is moot. The fact you demand people take time to show you such evidence, and then refuse to accept it after it was painstakingly hunted down (cut paste from YouTube in 2 seconds ), is frustrating, annoying, maybe rude. Just admit you are correct in some cases and wrong for others and the actual situation is too complex to predict a perfect prescription for retaining the desired 100% and no damn less, of technical abilities as life progresses for ANY individual, and admit at the same time that age ALONE is CLEARLY not a sufficient cause for LOSS of ability.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 27 2021 23:01:34
 
kitarist

Posts: 1177
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

The importance of skeletal muscle st... (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

quote:

It's impossible to respond without sounding patronizing, I am afraid.


so if the intention was to shut you up or shut you down, then it worked...



Just temporarily.. Here is a very recent (2016) review article on the subject, titled "Live strong and prosper: the importance of skeletal muscle strength for healthy ageing".

It is freely available from its publisher Springer at https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007/s10522-015-9631-7.pdf (direct link to pdf). Or go to https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10522-015-9631-7 and click on 'Download PDF' in the top right corner.

Some highlights:









Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (4)

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Konstantin
Foro cante accompaniment practice tracks (zip file)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 28 2021 18:48:18
 
kitarist

Posts: 1177
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: The importance of skeletal muscl... (in reply to kitarist

quote:

Here is a very recent (2016) review article on the subject


And here is the 1994 article that was the first to quantify the effects of resistance training on the very elderly - participants were aged 72 to 98 (!!). Its title is "Exercise Training and Nutritional Supplementation for Physical Frailty in Very Elderly People".

Spoiler: They gained muscle mass from exercising.

It is freely available form its publisher The New England Journal of Medicine at https://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJM199406233302501?articleTools=true (direct link to pdf). Or go to https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejm199406233302501 and click on the 'PDF' download icon on the left side.

Some highlights:









Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (4)

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Konstantin
Foro cante accompaniment practice tracks (zip file)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 28 2021 18:58:14
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12673
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: The importance of skeletal muscl... (in reply to kitarist

Good find!

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 28 2021 23:34:36
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