RE: Nodal Bars

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RE: Nodal Bars

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estebanana

Posts: 9364
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Nodal Bars (in reply to jshelton5040)

quote:

If it means taking the back off resetting the neck and rebracing the top that's not unethical it's restoration work to make his "tool" usable.

If the guitar has a structural issue that needs fixing, fix it. Clearly that is a repairman -guitar makers job. But if a maker declines to do a modification on speculation that it will help and they have good reason to decline the job then that is their business. That is also part of being honest. It's not a categorical decision, it needs to be decided on a case by case basis.

The other thing to consider, when being honest with customers, is to ask will the cost of the fix off be offset by the improvement? If so talk about it. If not, bag the idea.

I respectfully disagree about certain guitars which may be historically important. Some things are sacrosanct and should be kept in historical context. However if you owned a rare painting by Jan Vermeer, by law you are free to use it as a dart board if you like. You can douse it gasoline and set it ablaze it you like. You own it you can destroy it legally if you choose. In the case of a fine guitar one of the things that a guitar repair /restorer is responsible for, in my opinion, is to give some feedback to the owner about how any modification might affect this guitar though history. Guitars are going to outlive many owners today and a reckless modification could ruin the guitar for the future. In the instance of a beater guitar, who cares! But if is a Santos or of that ilk, yes it would be nice think about the ethical play of how that instrument should be preserved. In the violin world peopel have bench copies of rare instruments made so the authentic violin can be spared form a lot of wear and tear. A Santos or Esteso is important enough to warrant retirement and preservation because it is a part of flamenco cultural patrimony. In these cases ethics should be thought about and well developed.

But of course the owner is free to burn a Torres or Fleta in the fireplace if they like, it perfectly legal, it may not be ethical or moral.

I do agree that I don't give a crap about provenance in modern guitar, that is often an owners way of trumping up the instrument when it really is not that good. Like saying this guitar belonged to Sabicas blah blah- well Sabicas sold it because it sucked.

I think what you dislike is precious attitude towards guitars and repair work. And we have to accept that things change and can't be held in stasis as if in a museum. However the question was what would you do to make guitar play better? Some guitar makers don't want deal with these issues because they are not interested and they can't be blamed if they don't want to muck around trying to fix a dud. Take it to someone who likes working on duds.

Duds usually stay duds. If the dud has a problem that keeps it from playing fix it, but don't expect or demand a guitar maker to suddenly make your dud into a Strad or a Guarneri.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 3 2012 19:37:27

estebanana

Posts: 9364
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Nodal Bars (in reply to estebanana)

After this thread the only bar I want to see is a beer bar.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 3 2012 19:58:51

JuanDaBomb

Posts: 189
Joined: May 18 2011

RE: Nodal Bars (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

Look here, Shelton has a guitar owned by a guy in Berkeley, what if that guy came to me and said "Hey can you make this better? "

Since I can't help but feel that I got thrown under the bus here (and since it does say Berkeley over there under my name, and since I did post a product review about my Shelton-Farretta guitar; do the math), for the record I didn't say that. The End.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 3 2012 22:24:12

estebanana

Posts: 9364
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Nodal Bars (in reply to JuanDaBomb)

Juan,
I was not throwing you or John under the bus. I said thought it was a fine guitar, you never expressed reservations about to it me. I looked at it and told you it was a good guitar, I figured you wanted me to see because you were proud or it.

I said "what if" to use it as an example, perhaps I should have not used so specific an example. Sorry if that put you on the spot, I did not mean in that way. I thought that that as an example would help make my point clear that I feel working over other makers work is not right for me if the other person is around to field the work or otherwise talk to the guitar owner.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 3 2012 23:04:47

JuanDaBomb

Posts: 189
Joined: May 18 2011

RE: Nodal Bars (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

Juan,
I was not throwing you or John under the bus. I said thought it was a fine guitar, you never expressed reservations about to it me. I looked at it and told you it was a good guitar, I figured you wanted me to see because you were proud or it.

I said "what if" to use it as an example, perhaps I should have not used so specific an example. Sorry if that put you on the spot, I did not mean in that way. I thought that that as an example would help make my point clear that I feel working over other makers work is not right for me if the other person is around to field the work or otherwise talk to the guitar owner.

Stephen,

I understand what you mean by your example. I just want to go on record: I like my guitar!

So long as that's clear, that's all I ask.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 4 2012 4:01:57

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Nodal Bars (in reply to estebanana)

Juan, When reading the first post that Estebanana wrote, where he used your guitar as an example, there was no doubt that he found it to be a good guitar.

I once had a very good violin. Experts were in doubt if it was a Filius Andrea or a very fine old German copy of that maker. In the end it was decided that it was the second. It had a very beautifull old sound full of soul and the high register was full and open. All professional classical violinists loved it; but it was in a bad shape, so I brought it to a professional violin restorer. He said the bass bar was to short. I agreed that he corrected it. So he took the violin apart, new bass bar, a few small cracks were fixed, the ribs were sat in the right angle and everything was reglued.
When it came back it was correct. It sounded and played well, but the soul wasnt there anymore and the high register was just normal and a bit harsh. I thought that some years of playing it in would change that, but no.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 4 2012 8:12:22

HolyEvil

Posts: 1240
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia

RE: Nodal Bars (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

You´re being totally unfair. Lots of other things were said in this thread. Go back and read.
You cant see the difference on changing a fingerboard and changing the internal structure of the guitar. The bracing and the thicknessing of the plates is THE most important work when creating sound. Its the soul of the instrument and it reflects the soul of its maker. A fingerboard is just a piece of wood glued on the instrument.
How many high quality instruments do you think have been buchered to death just because someone wanted to tweak a sound or change a color.
I´m not going to comment more on this issue for now because most clearly you dont like my comments.

why am I being unfair? I was asking actually asking about different ways of solving the volume issue. so on my guitar, the luthier made 2 bars. I was wondering how you guys would do it?
I didn't realise that ethics would come into it, and since ethics came into it, I mention fretboard and bridge, you mentioned fretboard but didn't mention changing the bridge issue.

And i don't understand why you said because I don't like your comments you won't post on this thread, this is a discussion thread, of course there would be different opinions, I respect your view and in reply to that, I gave mine. And was hoping that you would give yours again.

cheers

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 5 2012 4:15:40

HolyEvil

Posts: 1240
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia

RE: Nodal Bars (in reply to estebanana)

Hey Stephen, I wasn't mad at all, I was just putting out that I was feeling disappointed at 'don't fix it' reply.

I understand your trepidation about fixing an issue another maker's guitar, but as all luthier guitars are handmade, there's bound to be inperfections, this is part of the lure of luthier made guitars.

eg, if I were to have a sound in my head and got you to make me a guitar, and I have described it as best as I could. The product that I got is VERY close to the sound I want, and it's very very close but it's not 100% the sound/feel I want, I think it is very much within reason to either, 1)if i'm close to you, bring the guitar to you to let you go over it or 2) bring it to someone closer to try to resolve the problem.

AND in my mind, if alot of luthiers were to say 'not fixing it, sell it and buy another' then it's REALLY hard on the pocket, because if I buy a guitar at 4k, there no way in hell I'm getting 4k for it, I'll be happy to get 3k. (this is keeping in mind it's not a newly made reyes which can sell for more than it's purchase price).
And the time consumed to get something that I feel 100% comfy with.. if it takes 1 month to get a guitar and you have to lose about 20- 25% every guitar, would you do it?

can you see where I'm coming from?

and to answer "the last thing you want is to get a reputation for performing repair quackery on instruments"
that is the reason why we go to established luthiers for important things like sound/tone etc.

cheers

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

Holy,

Don't go away mad. To be kind of tough about it, guitar makers are not responsible for the sound of someone elses guitar. We would rather build another one of your own than risk trying to change one made by someone else. We're doing this because we want to fix other peoples guitars. Received wisdom through generations of guitar makers is don't try to change a bad guitar into a good one. There is a reason it has problems and those reasons go back to it's fabrication method or the materials themselves.

It is not ethical to change the work of another guitar maker unless there is an apparent structural failure that needs to be fixed. In the case of a beater guitar or less value guitar, yeah you can mess around with it, but like the old saying says you can't make a silk purse from a sows ear. Personally I'm not going to set myself up to someones expectations that their guitar will get better if I glue some more sticks inside.

If one is a serious guitar maker like Anders or John or me or others, the last thing you want is to get a reputation for performing repair quackery on instruments. Where do you draw the line once you start modifying guitars? Do you know how many great guitars have been ruined because there have been trends of adding or shaving braces over the years?