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RE: Join The Greek Revolution
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3464
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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 RE: Join The Greek Revolution (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
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quote:
Marxism ( whether -Leninism or whatever ) cannot be oligarchy by its very principles.
Leninism (as a variant of Marxism) cannot be oligarchical by its very principles??? Ruphus, Lenin was the archetypal oligarchical leader. Lenin proclaimed the Bolsheviks, which he led, the vanguard of the proletariat. By the "Vanguard of the Proletariat" Lenin meant that only they (the Bolsheviks) had the wisdom and authority to govern the Soviet Union. You can bet that Lenin did not ascribe to the utopian Socialist (not to mention Marxist) ideal of the state withering away. Lenin and the Bolsheviks embodied the state, and they meant to keep it that way. There was no compromise with Lenin. And remember "Democratic Centralism"? That was the idea that the small group of Bolsheviks who were the decision-makers could debate a proposition among themselves, but once a decision was reached, the debate was over. No going back to reconsider on the part of skeptics.
And while we are on the topic of Marxism, there is a certain irony in the inconsistent and hypocritical way Marx and many of his followers benefited from the Capitalist system they claimed to despise. As is well-known, Marx lived largely off the largess of Friedrich Engels through Engels's Capitalistic Manchester mills. An even more egregious example of hypocrisy is Bertolt Brecht, the East German playwright, probably most famous for his play "Mutter Courage und Ihre Kinder." Brecht, of course, consistently criticized Capitalism, calling it exploitative and harmful, and he extolled the virtues of the East German Communist state. That was the extent of his "consistency." When it came to Brecht's personal life and well-being, as opposed to his public statements, he was notably inconsistent. For example, his plays were all copyrighted, in order for him to receive all the royalties from their performance, whether performed in the Communist East or the Capitalist West. Apparently redistribution of wealth stopped when it came to Brecht's income from royalties. One is reminded of the old adage: "Hypocrisy is the homage that vice pays to virtue."
By the way, I have both seen "Mutter Courage und Ihre Kinder" on the stage and read the play in the original German. And I like it very much. Brecht's hypocrisy in no way hindered his ability as a playwright. He was very good, indeed.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jun. 28 2011 21:43:36
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elgreco
Posts: 247
Joined: Nov. 24 2010
From: San Francisco CA
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RE: Join The Greek Revolution (in reply to Ron.M)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ron.M
If I were Greece, I would default.
Not so easy mate. The idea is to prevent the acquire of Greece's resources by "foreign" interest groups (privatization of public services, oil in the Aegean, even entire islands). If Greece goes back to the drachma, an (in)direct devaluation of Greece's currency will occur, and those same foreign interest groups will be able to buy the entire Greece for a few euros. However it would make Greek products more competitive and it would increase exports. So you are right that it would be the only solution that would cure Greece's economy. I think the ideal path would be a correct redefinition of the EU's vision/goal. The EU should not exist solely for Germany to produce and the rest of Europe to consume. There should be a fair allocation of commerce, production, exports, imports so everybody can flourish. Greece should take tourism and commercial navy, Italy cars and clothes, Germany consumer electronics and submarines etc. But you cannot have Germany producing and selling everything while us PIIGS just borrow so we can buy German products.
It worked for a few years but not in the long run.
D.
Dino
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Captain Esteban: Caballeros! I believe you all know each other?
Don Diego from San Fernando.
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Don Fernando from San Diego.
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Luis Obispo from Bakersfield.
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Date Jun. 29 2011 4:20:28
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3464
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Join The Greek Revolution (in reply to XXX)
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quote:
This is due to the fact that thoughts do not immediately create reality. Actions do.
And obviously they weren't idealistic dreamers, which shows quite quickly if one actually deals with what they had to say. Surprisingly they used the resources they had to propagate the thoughts they were thinking. What an irony isnt it?
You have confirmed what I wrote. I was addressing my statement to those who think of Marx, Brecht, et. al., as idealistic visionaries, when, in fact, they were quite willing to use the existing system when it suited their own ends and purposes. Kind of like Hitler using the German Weimar democratic system to get elected and assume power in 1933, only to destroy the system once in power. Yes, it is ironic.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jun. 29 2011 10:44:34
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3464
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Join The Greek Revolution (in reply to XXX)
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I think we agree here, Deniz. I call it hypocrisy only if such individuals are presented as idealistic and pure, a view held by many who support Marx, Brecht, et. al. That's why I stated that my observation was directed toward such people. A much more pragmatic view, and one with which I more or less agree, is that Marx, Brecht, et. al., were all, each in his own way, hard-nosed realists who were willing to use the existing system in order to advance his own political agenda (in the case of Marx, for example) or his own personal well-being (in the case of Brecht, who placed the income from his royalties in Swiss bank accounts--he spent much of his time in Switzerland, while condemning everything Switzerland and the West stood for). If I were to make a distinction between Marx and Brecht, I would be more forgiving of Marx (as he had to find some way to support himself while advancing his philosophy and writings) than I would be of Brecht, who unashamedly lived well off the system he condemned. I would have to call Bertolt Brecht a true hypocrite.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jun. 29 2011 13:36:28
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: Join The Greek Revolution (in reply to Ron.M)
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Hi Bill,
I must have expressed myself in a wrong way.
What I meant is that marxism ( independently of which name might be attached to its interpretation, like Lenin´s ) actually cannot be oligarchy. IOW, where you see oligarchy there can´t be Marx´ principles.
Further, I agree on Lenin´s misconceptions, like his intention of a long term one-party state, contradicting the idea of democracy.
You also impressed me with some detail, like your knowledge on Albanian´s obligatory allotment of academic suibject to students. ( Which was a thoughtless and unproductive policy indeed.)
However, the picking on individual failure under the name of any official self-named "socialist" system will not prove your apparent point of out of all capitalism being suited for societal construct of equal rights and democracy.
Humans ( hominids ) are social beings by nature. It is precisely that speciality that made them survive and progress as a physically weak species in a challenging environment over millions of years.
With feudalism and capitalism and their principles of recklessness and material votiv that seem to appear like a reasonable way to go to you, we would have been extincted far into prehistorical times already.
And that is where we are heading to right now, after only a couple of millenia of unsocial being.
No individual failure of a Lenin, Stalin or eventual tribe leader in Papa New Guinea for that matter will be equalling congruency to deny our anthropology of social being and the corresponding societal adequacy.
Humans are and will never be evolutionary prepared ants, developed to be servants of an upper caste. Neither are they meant to live under regimes that disguise themselves as democratic whilst in practice being reign of oligarchs and mafia.
Indepedently of how much you might fetch some Crushtchovs or Pol Pots, lucky that no black book of feudalism and capitalism has been written yet, leaving the left-coloured potentate´s bodies and deprived victims like sand grains in plains of dust.
Instead of defending pharaonic systems you could demand to let the people possess the value they produce. Inquiring an end to deprival of lifetime, health, social surrounding and communal property.
Would such consistancy be totally out of this world for a human being?
Ruphus
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Date Jun. 29 2011 13:46:57
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