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Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
Sabicas
I was watching some old Carmen Amaya videos, where Sabicas was in them. In parts, there were 4 guitarists, and he did a solo, granaianas I think.
During hte 4 guitar parts, it was very orchestrated, almost like Los Romeros. Actually if you have heard Paco's songs of South America CD, you get the idea, picado flying everywhere. Sabicas' guitar could always be heard, playing the high, fast lead lines.
During his solo, it was obvious that he had mastered the guitar to an amazing extent, so much that not only did look easy, but it was obvious that to him it was ho-hum simple. Watching him, you see that hand positioning is very important--he just set his hand in the right position and let 'er rip. See, easy, no hands, ma!
It appears he had a great deal of native hand speed, in addition to the perfection of his technique.
I really don't think it's like that Mike. Do you really believe that Sabicas and Paco actually studied other people's hand positions and angles? Or do you think they just tried to play what they wanted to play, and, hey they managed to do it how they wanted to? So now everybody is analysing "their" hand angles etc... And it goes on and on...IMO!
Ron, I don't think that Sabicas analyzed other people's hand positions, I think he found what worked for him and perfected it so that it was easy. I like to look at master guitarists and learn from them, not necessarily by copying them, by just absorbing what I can. Some of it helps, some of it doesn't. Let me ask you something, if your hand is in a position where after playing i, you have to move your hand 20 degrees to play m, that you will ever have a good picado? On the other hand, if you find a position where you can play both i and m without moving the hand, does that not give you a better chance of mastering the technique?
It seems there is a hostility to learning from these guys as much as one can, and I don't understand that. There are some people who have goals of one sort, and others that have goals of another sort. I don't begrudge you yours, Ron.
Sabicas was self-taught. He did things that were sacrilegious to some flamenco guitar teachers like slipping his fingers while playing picado. You have to find your own path. Watching and being required to regurgitate what a teacher does will not make anyone the next PDL. Try to understand your abilities and God given gifts and attempt to emulate the sound that you want to produce.
PDL fought his father and did things his way. If there was only one way to do anything then things would get boring quickly. A little creativeness and a different approach can produce interesting results.
By the way if I am not mistaken in the videos I have of Sabicas playing accompaniment for Carmen Amaya, the other guitarists are using pulgar picado and Sabicas is using Indice, Medio. Even so Sabicas is heard above the other 4 guitarists.
Hi Mike, There's certainly no hostility intended, I'm just debating the value of analyzing another player's technique under a magnifying glass as it were. This "microscopic" analysis of technique goes on in other Forums, including the Classical one as well you know. Of course I want to see you achieve your goals Mike, and I really believe you have the determination to succeed. It's just that I don't know if your method is right or wrong...that's why we discuss things!
ORIGINAL: Ron.M This "microscopic" analysis of technique goes on in other Forums, including the Classical one as well you know.
I think microanalysis of technique can help solve certain problems, but equally I think it can create them. I think its helpful for teachers to understand how the hand works, and know different ways of achieving things, so that they are well equipped to help students with differing needs and abilities. But not all information is useful in every situation. IMO, too much information is usually unhelpful for anyone and its easy to get into 'paralysis by analysis' as I've said before.
As Mike admits in another thread, he is obsessed by picado, and has started hundreds of theads on fast picado in dozens of different forums over the last few years, approaching the same topic for a variety of different perspectives. I have to ask Mike, and I mean this genuinely -do you think your picado is better for all this?
Jon, as you may have guessed, I have devoted a large portion of my practice time over these last couple of years to exercies--much of it scales or picado. Was it worth it?
No.
I don't think so, at least. What do I have to show for all my work on picado? Not much, as it's still not that good.
My biggest advances seem to have been:
1. the first six months, perhaps, after I started practicing scales 2. when I had to learn a bunch of "easy" material to fill time at gigs 3. during periods that I gigged extensively, like 8 times in two weeks 4. when I discovered a set of exercises including arpeggios and chord shapes
It seems that of the factors that contribute to advancing the skills to play music, raw exercises are only slightly useful. I think I have wasted a lot of time on them.
I have come to believe that you have to work on music most of the time, simply because that's the way the body/mind works. Working on exercises all the time doesn't help, probably because the mind gets bored and never really marshalls all of its attention to it.
Playing and arranging "easy" material was good for me, because it let me play things that weren't confusing my hands. So I got a lot of more stability, which actually helps the harder material too. I am now converted to "progressive" studies!
The exercises I spoke of, I only did for a while, but they were very helpful. Basically they included switching between three finger chords all over the fingerboard. The shapes were all familiar, but rarely do you do work with 3 finger chords. I think it is a matter, once again, of progessivity. If you are always doing complicated things with 4 fingers, you never really learn them well. If you start off with scales, then go to doubles, then triples, your fingers get a kind of security that is hard to get the reverse way. I also did arpeggios which included a lot of stretches. In both these exercises, I made sure I knew each note I was playing ACE, BbDbEb, etc. This, to me, is extremely important. It provides structure.
And gigging was very useful, probably for a variety of reasons. One thing, it has helped me overcome my stage fright, which used to be severe, and is now pretty much licked (well I haven't given any concerts but for limited interactions at gigs, I'm fine now). When I was in college, I tried to play a Bach prelude and I forgot the 2nd note. Yes, the 2nd note! Last year I gave a little recital with a classical guitarist and I played a few palos of flamenco and had no problem, and looked a lot better than them in terms of performing.
I am currently enthralled with a book on learning piano technique, full of the "secrets of the masters." It has methods for practicing and memorizing that are getting me really excited, and I've resolved to dump mindless exercises and start learning and perfecting tons of music now. This is a pretty big jump for me!
Peter, how fast is that? The 16th notes at 180 or so that is the fastest you will hear them on record? I can already do that, and I started playing when I was 16, and didn't do rest strokes until about age 25. Care to change the theory? :)
It's bad to compare music and athletics. Athletic endeavors have to do mostly with gross abilities, while music is skill-based. Playing picado is a lot more like playing chess than running the 100m. Paco de Lucia said "Playing the guitar is 100% mental." 100% you say, ridiculous? Well, he said it, talk to him.. :)
Of course it is easier to learn at a young age, but we should expect guitar abilities to degrade at a rate more similiar to chess and other skills. And in chess, t he very old aren't the best of course, and neither in picado or other musical abilities.
I read a story about Sabicas-he was brought to a teacher when he was a kid to develop his playing. He said he played a picado and the teacher threw him out. He had it when he was a kid.......I think it is possible to improve your picado a lot, but I think it takes a lot of consistant work
I think a lot of frustration comes from working very hard, looking at all the angles, finally getting it right, feeling great that you've "cracked it", then finding that you can't do it consistently. Here today, gone tomorrow...
The truth is, IMO is that the problem has not been "cracked", but only flirted with.
The idea that you can pull off a momentarily great bit of technique on the guitar means that you've taken another giant step is baloney IMO.
Fast picado, great pulgar, solid rasgueados etc is something that is acquired slowly across the years, combined, (and I mean this with the greatest emphasis), with a better knowledge of, and familiarity with compás.
I believe myself, there is no single excercise or practise regime that will fast track this.
It's an organic thing...
Once you hear those things accurately in your head, feel how it merges with the music, then your fingers will follow.
This may sound odd, but I believe that once you are ready for playing fast picado etc, and playing it well, you will already have arrived at that point, so it doesn't feel or sound unusual to you and will have nothing at all to do with "16th notes" at "XXX" bpm.
I agree Ron. There's just no substitute for time, and expierience.
It is easy to get frustrated, but ultimately, i think patience can be a big key. You've gotta give yourself time. Trying to glance over the little things will bite you in the ass down the road.
Better to be ultra thorough, and dont put any time constraints on your own progress. Or at least, make the constraints very loose. Pushing to hard can be damaging, physically, and pshycologically.
I'm giving myself another 15 years or so, and i figure i'll be where i wanna be. Worst case,, I should at least have the basics down by then.
I think a lot of frustration comes from working very hard, looking at all the angles, finally getting it right, feeling great that you've "cracked it", then finding that you can't do it consistently. Here today, gone tomorrow...
The truth is, IMO is that the problem has not been "cracked", but only flirted with.
The idea that you can pull off a momentarily great bit of technique on the guitar means that you've taken another giant step is baloney IMO.
Man, do I relate to this. I'd be happy if my picado was as good as it is on my best day, but it isn't. And my best day and my worst day are so far apart , it's sad. The crazy thing is, with a pick the best and worst day are much closer, so it must be the left hand (I'm a lefty) I'm way past thinking I'm about to "get it" when I have a good picado day.
I have heard that "if you don't get speed when you were young, you won't get it". It is almost believeable when you hear stories of the virtuosos today. But I think that is just an excuse from those that gave up long ago. Nunez started guitar at 12, and he is pretty fast. I have a fast pick, and I started at 12 also. I got really fast motion w/ in two years, but it was not controlled. Rhythmically I was limited. My left hand got really fast on electric guitar, and when I switched to acoustic years later I feel the speed translated to cleanliness. But it was not until college that I started controlling rhythm w/ the right hand and developing true speed (w/ pick). The key is rhythm. One could argue that I started early, etc, but I really don't feel it was the same for me. I was much faster at 20 than at 14.
I started learning real flamenco at 21. It is a little frustrating, but I really can feel how my right hand finger technique is 9 years behind my picking technique. It feels like my right hand can't keep up w/ the left. But I followed a lot of the princeables of rhythm that I used to develope the pick, with the picado, and it seems to be working well. I am much faster than when I started. Not quite matching my pick speed, but at least I can feel exactly how far too go. It is very satisfying to feel that there are many note sequences that I can do faster and smoother w/ i-m, than w/ a pick at this stage. Just trying to bridge the gap.
Simply knowing your limits allows you to make great use of what technique you have in a real musical context. Just keep thinking of moving upward. One more notch on the metronome, whatever it is, it is progress. Tauromagia sounds like much faster and cleaner playing to me than Mundo y formas. And he was in his 40s. That was his peek IMO. You have to make realistic goals. Many have tried to reach PDL's level. Nothing wrong w/ trying, but has it really been done in fact?
Make sure not to let it frustrate you. Think of it like Einstein's light speed barrier. You can never get up there, but a lot of cool things happen to you the closer you get.
ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria Peter, how fast is that? The 16th notes at 180 or so that is the fastest you will hear them on record? I can already do that, and I started playing when I was 16, and didn't do rest strokes until about age 25.
That's great Mike, that's very fast but I'm wondering why you keep beating yourself up about picado, then? How fast do you want to be?!! There are plenty of pro flamencos that can't do that.
When you posted some picado runs few months back (and Todd posted some that made us all run for cover...) if I recall correctly, the tempo was significantly slower than that - around 160 maybe? - and you were missing a lot of the notes and/or not getting others out cleanly. If you've sorted this out in a few months and upped the speed, that's just incredible progress.
I think we all like to believe that our top speed is what we can play after hours of warmup, on only one string, and only very briefly, is it actually, totally clean, and perfectly spaced timewise. And most times, we're hearing its clean, when in fact, its not.
This is absolutely Wishful thinking. Your top speed is what you can pull off In The Middle of a piece, when you've just woken up in the morning. I think you'll find this speed is a good 60 bpm slower than the wishful topspeed.
Playing in front of people??? Expect to fall another 10 bpm, and not nearly as clean as it is at home, if front of the TV, after playing the same run over and over, for 2 hours, and finally getting through one cleanly. Sorry, but that doesnt count.
In a concert, you only have one shot. No practice runs. Its in the middle of a piece. And you've got a front row full of guitar players staring you down, and waiting for you to screw it up. :) It'll fall another 10 or 20 bpm.
No maestro plays at top speed in performance. They play at their "Cruising" speed, wich is probably about 30 bpm slower than what they can top out at. They know its better to be clean, with perfect rhythm. This way, they are completely comfy, and confident.
So you can just imagine what Paco's top speed is. We havent heard it yet.
Guys, first of all, I think this is a great thread. Not because it is about picado, to me a wonderful adn mysterious technique, but because you guys are really sharing your insights and experiences. That's what I love about these forums--sometimes you get those gems that comes from musicians just hanging out.
Speed...I don't really care about speed. What I care about is excitement, power, fun. I hadn't listen to old Paco lately, and yesterday I put it on. What a mixture of inspiration and downer. As Richard says, the better you get, the further away he is. I have been listening to Paco Pena,Juan Serrano, Sabicas, etc., but Paco truly is at a different level. Or at least,t hat is my perception. To play so fast, it blurs into a single sound! Kind of a tremolo-like effect with picado. I don't aspire to do that, I'll leave that to Paco!
I have gigged three nights in a row and there is nothing like proving it live, is there? Well... my picado is definitely improving. I really enjoy the technique. I play a Sevillanas that has fast triplet picado (similiar to the one PP plays on Azahara), and it sounded pretty good. Panaderos was alittle flubbed, but I'm getting better at it! But there's a lot to work at.
Speed is one of these few things that you can quantitatively measure. How good am I? Well, how do you know--but with the metronome you can measure yourself. But as Mark says, it can be a variable process. One morning, good, one morning, it seems as if you've forgotten the whole thing. Craig Dell told me that Sabicas told him "picado must be polished for 30 min. a day." Hey, I believe it--many guitarists believe tremolo must be polished and maintained every week, and picado is harder. It's a high maintenance thing, because it requires you to be at your peak.
I have been reading a book on learning the piano which is absolutely fascinating. One of the things the author said is that generally people can do around 4 "impulses" a second. So a pianist can play an arpeggio, say 5 notes per impulse, 20 notes a second, fairly easily. We can do the same thing with tremolo, at 60 bpm (1 b/sec), play 16)--although that would require very fine-tuned tremolo. That is if you feel that a pami motion with tremolo is one "impulse".
For picado, most of us im--which is 2 notes/impulse. So that only comes out to 8 notes/sec if we stick to the "rule of thumb." Which comes out to sixteenth note at 120, which is a funny spot, kind of the limit for some people.
I'm not sure what this means, just perhaps that due to our biological nature, picado is destined to be a "high maintenance" technique. Of course, none of this explaisn why lots of pick players have no problem playing very quickly.
One more thing--the pianist mentions that many errors which seem to be unexplained are caused by FPD--Fast Play Deterioration. It's a phenomenon which causes your technique to decay because you are only playing fast. Apparently, from time to time, you have to slow things down a little--maybe to "polish" to maintain your technique.
about my "numbers"--no, I can't play 180 bpm 16th note scales so that they sound at the same level of our recording artists, such as Paco or Vicente! I'll break where I am now down for you, so there's no confusion or posturing :)
16ths at 220 -- my approximate warmed up rest note on open string speed 16ths at 192 -- fastest scale I played (and seemed to be good) 16ths at 180 -- fastest scales I can play, that I know well and am warmed up (although are sloppy) 16ths at 160 -- scales you heard earlier, that you and Todd tore up :) 16ths at 120 -- fastest recorded scales I was satisfied with 16ths at 80 -- fastest scales I am confident I can play anytime, anywhere!
A pretty ugly progression! The scales you heard earlier, I have hardly touched. There are too many bad habits and ugly little tensions sticking me with those, so I am moving on, working on hands seperate and lots of string crossing (probably my biggest weakness is bring the m up). Sorry for anyone who read this that wasn't Jon! :)
ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria Jon, about my "numbers"--no, I can't play 180 bpm 16th note scales so that they sound at the same level of our recording artists, such as Paco or Vicente! I'll break where I am now down for you, so there's no confusion or posturing :)
Wow that's a very wide curve. Mine is much, much narrower than that. Once I warm up my right hand to its maximum using the single open string exercise, my 'warmed up' picado for two hands (clean and accurate) gets to within 10-15 bpm of it.
220 is very, very fast, even just for a single open string - do you mean you can actually maintain this? ie what Todd calls cruising, not just a single 'get lucky' burst?
Intertesting point Todd makes about technique in the real world - I don't know about the rest of you giggers but I rarely, if ever, actually 'warm up' at gigs, there simply isn't time. Also, without a dressing room I'd be warming up in front of people in which case theres that awkward 'has he started yet?' feeling about things. I tend to start gigs with easy solo rep. and use that as my warm up.
Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that Todd's right about this warm up thing - we don't get half an hour to 'warm' up our picado in the middle of a gig, so what you can do at home definitely does not translate to the stage.
Hey Miguel, when you say "bring the m up", I think I know what you mean, but can you clarify, and tell me what you do to correct this problem? I think it is something that stifles me as well. thanks
Intertesting point Todd makes about technique in the real world - I don't know about the rest of you giggers but I rarely, if ever, actually 'warm up' at gigs, there simply isn't time
I clearly do not gig flamenco yet However, when I played electric bass, I sometimes wore gloves and did finger movement exercises (fretting hand) between sound check and performance.
Con, imagine you are playing a scale going from high E to low E, im. There are two ways you can jump from string to string, starting with the i or them. Because of the physiology of the hand, it is more difficult to switch strings playing the m. Going down, that is low E to high E, it is easier.
So bringing the m up, I'm talking about that kind of string crossing.
As far as solutions, I think it's just a motion that needs to be seperated and worked--without the LH being involved is the best way. What happens, I think, is the hand gets confused at these times, the result is tension which makes your hand freeze. If you can replace that confusion with a well-drilled, efficient motion, the thing will get smoothed out. I think I will work o nthat right now!
One of the things the author said is that generally people can do around 4 "impulses" a second.
Mike, I know you are a big fan of this scientific mumbo jumbo, so I thought I might add this. Like Ricardo's mention of the speed of light barrier, the maximum possible limit for voluntary repetative movement is around 8 to 10 times a second, which corresponds to the "shivering" experience. This is the maxiumum "refresh rate" of the nervous system and cannot be exceeded.
(There is a guy here who does Neurology at University, so maybe he can fill in more.)
Sadly, this great insight has improved my playing absolutely nil.
Grisha (the russian virtuoso) said that he has never done any exercises (scales, arpeggios, etc.) and everybody knows how fluent he is on guitar.
My point is that if you are not born with it, you won't achieve it through any other means. No matter how many times you swing your i and m fingers back and forth.
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