RE: The challenge issued by my school teacher

Costs are rising and times are tough.
Please consider a donation to keep this
place going.

Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.

This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.

We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.

You are logged in as Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >>Discussions >>Lutherie >>

Page: << < 1 [2] 3 4 5 > >>

Message

<< Newer Topic Older Topic >>

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

I stopped doming the soundboard some years ago. I´ve made 30 - 35 where I brace flat and I prefer it over the domed design I made earlyer. By using a very thin bridge strap, the soundboard actually domes a bit itself. It ends up with 1,5 - 2mm dome when the guitar is finished which I find to be perfect and it gives more power and a free'er sounding guitar than a 3mm dome.
Since the soundboard dome a bit, I have scooped out the solera a little bit.

My first few guitars were flat and I really liked those first few. They also have a natural dome to them so in the end, they aren't completely flat. I may go back to this method. I also agree with your statement on more power. I may also go back to my 5 strut design as I feel these were more lively.

_____________________________

Tom Núñez
www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 3 2011 15:40:19

cRobson12

Posts: 288
Joined: Dec. 8 2010

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to cRobson12)

Hey guys, I made a list of everything I am going to buy from A & M woods and here is what I have so far.

Back and Sides - Alaskan Yellow Cedar (cypress) - Grade A
Top/sound board - Engleman Spruce - Grade AAA
Bridge blank - Rose wood east indian
Finger Board- Macassar Ebony
Neck- Spanish cedar blank
African Ebony Bindings (how much will I need?)
Saddle and Nut - Bone blanks
Bracing Stock - Spruce, Sitka

Does anyone know of a place in Canada where I can purchase standard luthier supplies such as lining, bracing, and kerfing?

Also is there anything I am missing for this build? The above listed is everything that I have written down for this project and I am positive I am missing things.

I will be purchasing the tuning machines later. And could someone please explain to me how I go about domming the top and bottom by 2mm as said above?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 3 2011 15:47:45

Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to cRobson12)

I remember reading stuff on Frets.com Frank Fords site, for those who have not seen it check it out. He had a particularly interesting one on repairing a damaged bridge off a Santos Hernandez flamenco guitar, what I found interesting is its flat and he re glues it on flat. I think purposely building in a 3mm dome that will grow under tension is probably misleading information as far as flamenco guitars are concerned, probably trickled over from classical guitar builds. After experimenting with different designs and plans over the last few years, domed, flat top Reyes, the one design element that I did decide on was a top under string tension with 2>mm of doming. Having someone way more experienced like Anders post this leads me to believe I was on the right track on this particular design element. For those contemplating changing from a 3 - 5 mm domed top to a flatter top remember you will need to alter your neck angle or you will never be able to get the guitar set up.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 3 2011 16:03:05

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to TANúñez)

Fabian
The DVD is 5 - 6 years old. I also arch the bottom of the bridge, so you can see that TomB and I agree on a lot of vital questions.

Ruphus:
Damman is a very good maker and I´m very sure he knows what he´s doing.

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 3 2011 16:05:49

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to Sean)

quote:

For those contemplating changing from a 3 - 5 mm domed top to a flatter top remember you will need to alter your neck angle or you will never be able to get the guitar set up.

Thats right. Building flat is another way of building. It sounds different, taptone is different, the guitar is different.
BUT, please bear in mind that its just my opinion. You can find absolutely wonderfull guitars with more dome in the top. To me its not something strange. It goes well with my basic ideas of guitar building: That its the hands that rule.
Its not the plan. Its not some special wood its not flat versus domed top. Its the total balance of the building that matters. And you can only achieve this with time and by working all the small details very slowly. Not jumping from extremes etc.

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 3 2011 16:11:28

Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to TANúñez)

4 bindings, 5 if you want to use one for a back centre strip, tuners you can get there to but its actually cheaper to order from LMI or Stew Mac depending on which ones you decide on. The fingerboard if you don't find one there you can check out Exotic Woods in Burlington, they can thickness sand stuff for you there too. I do recommend a different source for sound boards though, its on the East coast in NFLD so shipping is not to expensive and they season their wood properly, not the quick kiln dried stuff and better priced.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 3 2011 16:16:47

diazf

Posts: 52
Joined: Jan. 2 2006
From: NYC

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to cRobson12)

David Schramm's website as well as his online apprentice site has a bunch of great info that I found very helpful. Including a list of tool and materials. Here's the links.

http://onlineapprentice.com/bom.html

http://onlineapprentice.co

http://www.schrammguitars.com/

If you want pegs that are as easy to use as mechanical tuners you should use these. Personally I really like the look of pegs better. And even the best installed wooden pegs are never as easy as these to use. I've had them on two guitars they're great. Also the new ones use a standard reamer to install.

http://www.pegheds.com
Chuck Herin
Pegheds Inc.
1995 State Highway 269
Winnsboro, SC 29180
866-734-4337

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 3 2011 16:25:09

diazf

Posts: 52
Joined: Jan. 2 2006
From: NYC

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to TANúñez)

Hi Tom, you mentioned you're using a modern Conde bracing plan. Can you share some more info. Are modern Conde's 5 or 7 braces, symmetrical / asymmetrical, radiating / parallel, long or short tapered ends, etc. Any info is much appreciated. Thanks.
Saludos,
--Fabian

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 3 2011 16:35:02

Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to TANúñez)

In the end a plan is no more important then your saw, anyone with any decent woodworking skills can build a guitar from a plan, it will even sound like a guitar but sound like a very fine flamenco guitar with the right tension or pulsation as Anders put it in the right hand, with easy playability is entirely different. I could draw my own plan in about 2mins flat and I guarantee it will sound like a guitar, how its built and interpreted by the craftsman will determine though wether it meets the above criteria of a fine flamenco guitar. The rocket science of building a great guitar is not in the rocket science at all.
As Anders stated above a domed top is not wrong in any way as there are way to many excellent classical and flamenco guitars that have been built this way that I'd ever be able to count in my lifetime.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 3 2011 18:07:31

Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to TANúñez)

I found a flamenco guitar instructor, I think becoming a better player and being able to put my guitars in the hands of a professional recording artist for scrutiny is what is going to improve my guitars far more then any guitar plan, bracing experiment could ever do. It may be a brutal and eye opening experience but I'm strangely looking forward to it lol.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 3 2011 18:43:18

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to TANúñez)

Don't forget cRobson12 one very big issue with building guitars is the enviroment! Make sure you build in a humidity controlled enviroment that is average to your climate. I like to build in 45 - 50% relative humidity

_____________________________

Classical and Flamenco Guitars www.EdenGuitars.co.uk

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 3 2011 19:32:46

Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to TANúñez)

Yes I mentioned that in a private email, although for our particular local environment about 40% is better. Summer here although humid is short, air conditioning helps with this but winter here which is so much longer is very dry.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 3 2011 21:09:43

diazf

Posts: 52
Joined: Jan. 2 2006
From: NYC

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to Stephen Eden)

Good and very important point. Its a daily task that I wish I could simplify. It's easier in the summer to dehumidify my little workshop but a real nuisance to properly humidify in the winter when levels drop to 20 percent or less with the heating. Refilling the water tank all the time. Any recommendations to make it easier? Thanks.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 3 2011 21:21:21

cRobson12

Posts: 288
Joined: Dec. 8 2010

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to TANúñez)

The shop that I will be working in is not humidified. However I have a basement work shop that is, would it be alright if I made the parts and everything in the school shop than assemble it else where?

I have a question concerning the headstock and neck. If I am buying a blank slate of cedar, what is the angle of which the head stock bends backwards? And do I go about attaching the neck to the guitar? The book that I have doesn't really explain it well.

Also is plastic binding good enough, or should I buy the wood binding?

And finally I have fallen in love with this rosset that I saw on Ruben Diaz's santo hernandez (please no comments on him its not the time or the place). I am looking for one that is similar to the link posted below.

https://www.lasonanta.eu/es/andalusian-flamenco-guitar-santos-hernandez-1927.html

Thanks guys!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 3 2011 22:38:55

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to cRobson12)

I don't like those rosettes. They seem overdone. Less is more. DISCLAIMER - this is solely my opinion and not meant to offend Andalucian guitar lovers as well as Ruben Diaz lovers.

_____________________________

Tom Núñez
www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 3 2011 22:47:07

cRobson12

Posts: 288
Joined: Dec. 8 2010

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to TANúñez)

Which ones do you recommend I look at Tom? I haven't done any research on rosettes yet, I was just googling Santos Hernandez guitars and that one caught my eye. (I don't really have anything to compare it to other than my crappy butterfly rosettes on my classical

)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 3 2011 22:51:47

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to cRobson12)

I'm not saying you shouldn't do anything like this style if that's what you want. Rosette making is an art to itself and very rewarding but it does take time. If you go the pre-made route, go the LMI and check out their rosette selection. A lot to choose from. Someone may even know of a Canadian supplier.

_____________________________

Tom Núñez
www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 3 2011 22:56:17

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to TANúñez)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TANúñez
go the LMI and check out their rosette selection. A lot to choose from.

Of course you'll probably have to wait a year or so for any of the nice looking rosettes to be in stock and then hope the colors don't fade out in a few years because of the cheap dye. Not to mention their ridiculous prices.

Try this link:
http://www.dukeluthier.com/main.sc

_____________________________

John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 3 2011 23:16:19

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to jshelton5040)

I just checked their website. All are in stock except for two. I take it you've had some bad experiences with them John?

_____________________________

Tom Núñez
www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 3 2011 23:27:50

estebanana

Posts: 9367
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to Sean)

quote:

I think purposely building in a 3mm dome that will grow under tension is probably misleading information as far as flamenco guitars are concerned, probably trickled over from classical guitar builds.

The brace it flat routine is more recent, probably made a regular style in flamenco building by Archangel Fernandez' generation. Before then it was common for the domed top on both flamenco and classical guitars. But then there is Hauser and it's possible some of those early guitars are flat braced before he makes a return to domed Torres style, so there is a case where a classical guitar is flat. Hauser came more or less from the Staufer tradition and the whole romantic guitar with flat ladder braces. So who is to say whether the classical or romantic guitar influenced the making of flamenco guitars with a "flat top" which is really a nismomer because it's not actually flat. It's also important to remember for about 300 years of the history of the guitar the tops where a actually flat and constructed with flush fingerboard style construction so there is a lot of history behind the flat top. You can see that style in the baroque guitars and the earlier four course guitars of the late Reniasance.

The Torres arched guitar was the model made for a long time and then somehow the older true flat lateral braced style melded with the Torres guitar to give some thing in between. But I have no idea when that happened an probably it was being experimented with whether on purpose of not from very early on after the Torres guitar took off. It would be interesting if someone could say definitively when that mixture of true flat Staufer meets Torres arch. Did Hauser do it first? Could be. or maybe a 19th century Spaniard. Some Manuel Ramirez guitars give off the hybrid flat fan vibe by the way they ( and other older guitars) the dish in front of the bridge, but it's hard to tell whether or not that is age and string tension taking it's toll on the braces or intended structure. (Remember that those where made for gut strings. As were the other true flat tops.)

I don't think it's true the flat top style in a flamenco renders more power either and there are hybrids in between like slight doming and then pushing the top up into the bridge when you glue it on. Building the same guitar enough times to get into a groove with how bridge, bracing and top thickness work together is the key. I have been making a low flat arch which gets an under arched bridge and the guitar still has a quality where the string tension pulls the top up even though it's got some arch braced into it initially. There are a bunch of different possibilities.

To my mind the thing is to get a feel for and some theoretical ground on how the whole basic architecture of the guitar works. It does not have to be scientific, but there are fundamental structural ideas that should get internalized or understood before fiddly micro adjustments come into play.

anyway

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 3 2011 23:48:25

Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to TANúñez)

Even steel string guitars after time end up with a small dome in the top from being under string tension. The Reyes plan we refer to as flat is not even flat but does have a slight doming effect to it, just not the typical way.
I doubt a freshly built flamenco guitar with 1.5 - 2mm doming under string tension is a recent invention, if its made of wood and has strings someones been there and done that. The classical guys can make a 4+mm domed top work but I'll take a pass on trying to set up a flamenco with one. It just seems easier for me personally to keep the doming to no more then 2mm under tension then to make the guitar with a large dome and negative neck angle. I think if the string height above soundboard is equal a 1.5mm to 2mm dome gives the strings a little more torque on the soundboard then a soundboard with 3 to 3.5mm of doming.
My science could very well be flawed here so I won't get miffed if someone totally proves me wrong. I just find I get a livelier guitar and its easier for me to set it up right.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 4 2011 6:11:02

Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to TANúñez)

A&M has a few traditional looking rosettes you can look at when you're there, just keep in mind they and all the woods look much more colourful under a finish. Unfortunately

you won't be able to find a rosette like the one on that Ruben Diaz thing.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 4 2011 6:32:03

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to TANúñez)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TANúñez

I just checked their website. All are in stock except for two. I take it you've had some bad experiences with them John?

Exactly. I can't tell you how annoying it is to see a colorful rosette turn to grey and white after a couple of years. This happened to one of my personal guitars so I know there was no exposure to sunlight. I ordered 6 rosettes from them a few years ago and waited 1 year before receiving the first three. Never have received the rest. I assume they're still backordered. That's one vendor I totally avoid. By the way, how do you know they're in stock? You can't trust their web page.

_____________________________

John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 4 2011 14:27:08

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to jshelton5040)

That's unfortunate. I would call if I were you and inquire about that. As you said, they aren't cheap. So far if their website says an item is in stock, It'll be in my basket and I've always received my order. Maybe their system has been updated since you last ordered. It'll also tell you if an item is out of stock or backordered and will give you an approx. backorder date.

_____________________________

Tom Núñez
www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 4 2011 14:57:37

Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to TANúñez)

I'm surprised too as I did find their service very good when I have dealt with them, I'm sure if you contact them they would correct the situation. I'm curious as to which rosettes you had the trouble with, the regular listed ones or the ones under the handmade Russian category?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 4 2011 15:43:55

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to TANúñez)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TANúñez

That's unfortunate. I would call if I were you and inquire about that. As you said, they aren't cheap. So far if their website says an item is in stock, It'll be in my basket and I've always received my order. Maybe their system has been updated since you last ordered. It'll also tell you if an item is out of stock or backordered and will give you an approx. backorder date.

Perhaps they've finally hired someone competent to operate the web page. Over the years I've given them several chances retain my business. I've found it's easier and cheaper to deal with other vendors who are more honest and deliver good service.

_____________________________

John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 4 2011 16:17:42

cRobson12

Posts: 288
Joined: Dec. 8 2010

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to TANúñez)

I ordered some wood today, I am going to start off by making the neck and the bridge. Is the solera important for making the neck or?

Also I ordered 4 blocks of indian rose wood for the bridge. 2 for trial and error, and the other 2 for the guitar I am making and my classical. If I make a low profile bridge for my classical guitar, can I just more or less take the old bridge off and replace it? Or would I damage the guitar if I take it off?

Also I plan on making a soundport on the guitar, so I am going to try it first on my cheapy classical guitar. What tools do I need to do this? If I used a normal circular bit with a drill it would crack and destroy the wood upon exit. (This is what my shop teacher told me atleast, and testing it on thin pieces of wood proved this theory)

Thanks!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 6 2011 2:22:36

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to TANúñez)

Its a good idea to start making the neck and the bridge. You dont need the solera untill you start assembling the guitar. You´ll need some kind of dish to brace the back and also if you choose to work a domed soundboard.
You can work the top and back, inlay rosette and final thickness it before using the solera or a bracing dish.

Its not so easy to take of the bridge without damaging something. Why do you want to do so. If you want a negra, build one.

I wont recommend that you make a soundport with a circular bit. Your teacher might end up being right.
On the new guitar, reinforce the inside of the side where you want to have the soundport and cut it before you install the back.
I have some photos on my blog. They are of a more complicated inlayed design but it might give you some ideas:

http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/2010/12/making-inlayed-soundport.html

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 6 2011 9:15:32

Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to TANúñez)

If you did want to put a soundport in your old classical you will need to glue in a patch that fits between the two liners and is oversized for the hole. The only way to glue the patch in a completed guitar well is with rare earth magnets holding it in place, they are great for these kinds of things. You will also want to put masking tape on the outside to help prevent chipping before drilling into it. I would not use a hole saw bit with a hand drill ever as the slightest shift could cause it to grab and bind cracking the side severely. Depending on the shape of the hole you want and size, a mini sanding drum in a dremel can be used safely for shaping or enlarging of the whole.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 6 2011 15:38:25

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to TANúñez)

Sean, its complicating life a bit. If you want a soundport in a guitar which has not been prepared for it, Cut the hole and glue a reinforcement strip on both sides of the hole between the two liners. (just like you can reinforce the main soundhole) You can easily clamp the reinforcement strips through the soundport hole you just made.

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 6 2011 15:47:47