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RE: Picado attack, do you really need to choose only ONE?   You are logged in as Guest
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John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: Picado attack, do you really nee... (in reply to Elie

Exactly and I'm trying to stop it.

Don't worry, I'm not freaking out

It's just if he's gonna pose a theory against what every good flamenco teacher has ever told me I wanna see how it works, otherwise there's no use discussing further.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 6 2011 12:56:51
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Picado attack, do you really nee... (in reply to John O.

Wow.... these disgusting diagrams make me thankful people have skin so I don't have to look at all that stuff.

Would put you off your dinner that would.

cheers,

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 6 2011 13:00:14
 
John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: Picado attack, do you really nee... (in reply to Ron.M

This is better:




Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 6 2011 13:09:31
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Picado attack, do you really nee... (in reply to Ron.M

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M

Would put you off your dinner that would.

cheers,

Ron


Even if it was steak?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 6 2011 13:34:13
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Picado attack, do you really nee... (in reply to John O.

quote:

ORIGINAL: John O.

The moment you show me a video of you playing a great picado without achoring the thumb we can continue.


You keep on staying incongruent for ordinary sake of denial.

If you didn´t, but payed attention, you´d know that I instead pointed to, that what you can do without anchor while practicing you while playing can do much easier with anchor ( hence keeping fingers in position, which yet differs from aspect of fingers maneuverability ).
And when easier at that, consequently contracting the thumb much less while anchoring, which again should support fingers free maneuverability / just as a heavily strained thumb will be blocking them.

But anyway, if you just don´t want to look into details, forget about it. I wasn´t intending to confuse anybody.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 6 2011 13:47:00
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Picado attack, do you really nee... (in reply to Ruphus

I heard a radio programme a while ago where a guy was interviewing the last of a primitive tribe who had practiced cannibalism in the past.

He said..."I asked him if he personally had ever eaten human flesh..."

"Yes", he nodded.

"I asked him which part of the human body tasted best?"

"The thumbs".

Eeeeechaaa ......gruesome stuff eh?


cheers,

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 6 2011 13:48:47
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Picado attack, do you really nee... (in reply to Ron.M

For same reason big cats, when meneaters, are being said to be starting with the fingers while nibbling on human bodies.

- Thumbs, with most of flesh, might be first in row.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 6 2011 13:53:41
 
John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: Picado attack, do you really nee... (in reply to Ron.M

It must be like the lower part of the drumstick. If you cook the skin through well enough and bread it with enough cooking fat it's probably pretty good...

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 6 2011 13:56:39
 
John O.

 

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[Deleted] 

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jan. 6 2011 13:59:03
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 6 2011 13:58:56
 
Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Picado attack, do you really nee... (in reply to Ron.M

quote:

"I asked him which part of the human body tasted best?"

"The thumbs".


It was buttocks that went missing from corpses in the Pacific and Russian front during WWII. Sorry

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 6 2011 14:04:03
 
John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: Picado attack, do you really nee... (in reply to Escribano

Ah yes, rumpsteak

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 6 2011 14:09:40
 
DoctorX2k2

 

Posts: 211
Joined: Jun. 14 2006
From: Quebec City, Canada

RE: Picado attack, do you really nee... (in reply to John O.

quote:

ORIGINAL: John O.

quote:

Thus, the more strained the thumbs major muscles the more the thumbs appartus will be getting in the way of the fingers motoric subtlety.


Trying to get this, at the moment I'm pushing my thumb as hard as I can against the edge of the table and moving my fingers around freely. My thumb is red from the pressure but the biggest joints in my fingers are completely free to play what they want.

Out of curiosity I looked this up:



The thumb muscles seem completely seperate from the fingers. That muscle on the outside under the pinkey is what causes it to straighten, but it would seem to me as a laymen that the thumb muscle has little to do with the fingers - keep in mind using this picado the hand is straight and we're only talking about the fingers starting at the biggest joint. If I use my entire hand to push the thumb against the table then you're right. That's not the correct technique though.

Anyone here really knowledgeable in anatomy?


This is all wrong.

You've only taken the profound muscles, which do not participate much at all in flexion/extension of the hand/fingers except for the flexor pollicis brevis... which participates a lot less than the lungis. Abductors, opponens, interossei and lumbricals participate in abduction/adduction/opposition which are totally different movements and unrelated to most of this thread.

You should look at the forearm muscles.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 6 2011 16:29:41
 
John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: Picado attack, do you really nee... (in reply to John O.

Also tasty, I'm sure

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 6 2011 16:54:05
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Picado attack, do you really nee... (in reply to John O.

quote:

ORIGINAL: John O.

Also tasty, I'm sure


  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 6 2011 17:14:53

ToddK

 

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004
 

RE: Picado attack, do you really nee... (in reply to DoctorX2k2

quote:

You should look at the forearm muscles.


Ever seen Grisha's right forearm?

Freakish...

That is most definately a factor, at least in stamina if nothing else.

TK

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 6 2011 23:15:58
 
Rain

Posts: 475
Joined: Jul. 7 2005
 

RE: Picado attack, do you really nee... (in reply to ToddK

quote:

That is most definately a factor, at least in stamina if nothing else.


No its not. And Developing a fast picado has nothing to do with how young one started to develop there picado. If forearm muscles were a factor I would hit the Gym instead of the practice room.

If you cant count it, that is divide the beat verbally at a specific tempo you will not be able to play it is a fact. The same holds true for singing a musical phrase or developing a musical line wether one is performing a classical piece or learning a falsetta--if you cant sing it or hum it you probably cannot play it.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 7 2011 8:09:10
 
DoctorX2k2

 

Posts: 211
Joined: Jun. 14 2006
From: Quebec City, Canada

RE: Picado attack, do you really nee... (in reply to Rain

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rain

quote:

That is most definately a factor, at least in stamina if nothing else.


No its not. And Developing a fast picado has nothing to do with how young one started to develop there picado. If forearm muscles were a factor I would hit the Gym instead of the practice room.

If you cant count it, that is divide the beat verbally at a specific tempo you will not be able to play it is a fact. The same holds true for singing a musical phrase or developing a musical line wether one is performing a classical piece or learning a falsetta--if you cant sing it or hum it you probably cannot play it.


You can't say for a fact that it isn't.

Don't mix hypertrophy with strength and with power, although they are somehow related and sometimes needed for one another.

The thing is, even though playing guitar will help you optimize motor patterns (motor units recruiting scheme, activation/inhibition, etc.), I'm pretty sure the intensity isn't hit enough to stimulate enough motor units to produce the maximum possible power, or the velocity. If one cold activate more motor units at a given resistance, I guess his velocity would be greater.

When I saw Grisha's hand warm-ups, the first thing I noticed was his speed as he was doing it then I saw his forearm. I'd love to see how he does on a handgrip dynamometer. I'm sure his relative strength to muscle cross-section is huge. Do they correlate? Maybe... maybe not, but you can't say that they don't without testing it.

Let's take 20 volunteers. Develop a forearm power training program. Have half of them do it + picado exercises for a fixed amount of time. Let the other half just do the picado exercises and compare both groups progression after 10 weeks.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 7 2011 8:42:19
 
DoctorX2k2

 

Posts: 211
Joined: Jun. 14 2006
From: Quebec City, Canada

RE: Picado attack, do you really nee... (in reply to John O.

I wanted to add that there REALLY is a window of opportunity to train speed. Actually... 2 windows. Between age 6-9 and 12-15 if I recall correctly. It's been documented.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 7 2011 8:47:36
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Picado attack, do you really nee... (in reply to John O.

I used to be exceptionally fast in another discipline, without having had explicite training at the windows you mention.
- And an arm like Grisha´s used to be / is a rather normal condition among us, besides. I am surprised how much admiration such gets here.

One thing for certain is that until of late with a silly youth mania, capabilities of middle- to old age used to be pretty underestimated, with realistic observation ( and employment ) kicking in recently.

Most of effecting restriction in fact coming from prejudice adapted by the older people themselves. Just as with sex: Does anyone here really believe the ceasing of that matter at around 60 was to be physically inevitable?
There could be tickling decades yet afterwards. Just keep your little friend at work for not less than twice a week, omitting him due to unemployment to be going into pension.

One shouldn´t be pondering too much about being limited, but just imagine what he likes to achieve and go after it. In terms of picado you bet that there is enough potential to oblige, provided no counter productive technique in place as well as a bit of confidence.

I am overcoming what I consider to be focal dystonia at age of 51, so ... Seems one only needs to find pattern for change.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 7 2011 9:52:45
 
KMMI77

Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under

RE: Picado attack, do you really nee... (in reply to John O.

quote:

I am overcoming what I consider to be focal dystonia at age of 51, so ... Seems one only needs to find pattern for change.


I am sorry to hear this. My father suffers from what i believe to be severe focal hand dystonia. After 20 or more years of playing guitar this condition managed to take over. When i was 15 my father and i played a gig together 5 nights per week. At one point he realized that something was wrong with his hands. He made the decision to take a break and although he rested the condition continued to get worse. Over the next year his ability to control his fingers was almost completely lost. Most interesting was this was only noticeable when playing the guitar.

Upstrokes with the first finger on the right hand now required lifting of the forum and wrist. Right hand Arpeggios were no longer available. In fact all techniques were severely effected. When attempting to hold an eminor chord with the left hand his fingers straighten and approach the soundboard as if trying to hold a bar. Over the last 15 years he has tried to regain control only finding alternative movements that only enable tiny improvements. As you can imagine it's extremely frustrating for him and myself.

My father loves heavy flamenco, Solea and Siguiriyas especially on guitar. He always played hard and with as much expression as he could but there was a price for learning Flamenco guitar from records. He was unable to see the relaxed technique that they were actually employing.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 7 2011 10:20:48
 
John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: Picado attack, do you really nee... (in reply to John O.

Let's use Kung-Fu as an example. When I was a trainer (not a master...wasn't SO bad though) I used to have fun pulling heavy muscled beginners through the room because they were so stiff. They had a lot of strength, but couldn't focus it like I could and were slower.

Our grand master had a body similar to Arnold Schwarzenegger, I wondered why he even needed martial arts , but he of course was faster than anyone else. What I got from all the training was that it's a constant building up of muscle strength and in parallel learning which muscles to use and when to keep speed and stamina.

Our grand master said body building shouldn't be done until a lot later when you have complete control of the technique. I think the same applies here - first a good technique, then strength.

Also I'll add that my picado is faster after I've done some heavy rasgueado exercizes, but if I've done too many it gets weak again.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 7 2011 11:09:17
 
orsonw

Posts: 1929
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Picado attack, do you really nee... (in reply to John O.

Sorry to hear this Ruphus and Kris.

Unfortunately playing flamenco there is a risk of injury, which can ultimately limit or even completely prevent playing.
Risk factors are poor technique and overuse.
Injury is not inevitable but I suggest it is worth developing at least some basic awareness of technique and awareness of one's own body. Sometimes problems could be resolved if identified early but are left and become chronic and intractable. That's why I think these sometimes ridiculous threads are very valuable, I appreciate everyone's posts.

A 2003 study of professional flamenco guitarists in Andalucia found 87.5% showed signs of overuse syndrome. Amongst those affected 82.1% reported deterioration in their playing ability. (Marques et al 2003)

Djalma Nunes Marques, Jaume Rosset-Llobet, M.F. Fonseca Marques, I.G.D. Gurgel, L.G.S. Augusto (2003) Flamenco guitar as a risk factor for overuse syndrome Medical Problems of Performing Artists: Volume 18 Number 1: Page 11
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 7 2011 11:25:45
 
stratos13

 

Posts: 222
Joined: Apr. 11 2005
From: Αθήνα

RE: Picado attack, do you really nee... (in reply to orsonw

I see this subject never ends. So i will try to just say what i have learnt so far on picado. In order to have a good picado you have to.

1.Play a lot of picado. Incorporate it in your pieces of music and play songs like canaveral from Nunez that are full of picado.

2.Keep your hand very relaxed and play each note very clearly and SLOW. Your movement can happen as you like, but you have to touch the string with your nail before you play it (most people refer to this as staccato).

3.Do NOT anchor your thumb on the guitar or a string while you play picado. In all the videos you see, the guitarists are resting their thumb on a string or the guitar. They do not push the thumb. Manolo Franco says that in his video lessons. Forget you have a thumb when playing picado.

4.Spend about 20minutes every day, playing with a metronome on one string only at a speed and increase it the next day. Remember to have your hand completely relaxed. You cannot seek to play at 180 16ths, if you cannot do it in one string for 1minute straight.


This is the most valuable info i have collected, by people who have a picado at the level of Paco or close .
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 7 2011 11:37:33
 
John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: Picado attack, do you really nee... (in reply to stratos13

quote:

They do not push the thumb.


Herein possibly lies some confusion. Rest but don't push. But do place the thumb on a string or the guitar body.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 7 2011 12:12:51
 
jg7238

 

Posts: 2869
Joined: May 11 2009
 

RE: Picado attack, do you really nee... (in reply to stratos13

I've seen Paco on occasion push the string. I push sometimes as well and I have no problems with it. It depends on what you are doing and how you feel.


quote:

In all the videos you see, the guitarists are resting their thumb on a string or the guitar. They do not push the thumb.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 7 2011 14:08:05
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Picado attack, do you really nee... (in reply to John O.

I found Kris´ story very saddening to read. It must have broken his heart to wittness all that.



Also very informing and surprising to me to read what Orson wrote:
quote:

A 2003 study of professional flamenco guitarists in Andalucia found 87.5% showed signs of overuse syndrome. Amongst those affected 82.1% reported deterioration in their playing ability. (Marques et al 2003)


Those are some fuddling numbers, only underlining that it ought to be rather useful to discuss inherent aspects of technique as in this thread. Obviously, elaborating the practice is being no superfluous sissy engagement, but even more required than I used to think until Orson´s last post.

After all there must be a reason why so many players yet after long years perform in a strained / sluggish way. And at times even already relaxed players can detoriate in skills over time.

Along John´s kung fu example, which I want to confirm; it could be that even advanced practicioners need revisitting basics in a slow-motion and analytical way every other time. Kung fu students hardly ever come to see teachers and masters practicing, but when they possibly do they might well be surprised seeing the advanced guys doing basic stuff. Naturally in a much more minute and aware way, but technique the observers themselves thought `to be done with long since´.
-

To explain quickly on my FD problem: Luckily it is much lighter than the one of Kris´father, yet disturbing enough. Faded in before already in a subtle way through wrong technique, it worsened considerably through constant use of an Aiptek tablets mouse with hypersensible buttons, during audio mixing sessions. The mouses right-cick button used to be so sensitiv that I was forced to lift / extend my m finger constantly. You might imagine what such can result in after roughly a year or more. ( Seems to me as if it physically effected cortex.)

I am now spending about four years at repairing this problem and a couple of habitual quirks. Very gradually, but progressively successfully nonetheless.

The reason why me intensively participated in this thread is that I want fellow players to become aware of inefficiency for one, and of latent threat to health and playing career on the other hand.
Now, seeing the numbers Orson quoted, we all might get the idea.
-

As it seems after a lot of more or less blind resistence that we are now slowly accepting that a strained thumb can interfere into fingers movability ( and consequently influence / alter neural routines in general).

When rested, with the hands weight pulling downwards, the thumb will inherently have to resist its opening. How much the thumb will have to resist / contract depends on how much of hands weight it will have to anchor.

In order to omitt weight beforehand the lower arm should be rested in a certain way ( which will support other ergonomical aspects as well ). The how to do can be found in "my beloved" article of Prof. Iznaola, under a link above.

Keep in mind that thelike knowledge on motorics serve vast of common playing situation and are not inevitably meant to be maintained strictly throughout all possible playing requirements.

It rather seems that if settled on ergonomic basics one can if required afford occasional stray without primary harm. But without ergonomical basics one appears to be much more prone to further sneaking-in dysfunctionality as coming routine.

Execution, much rather than being bound to will ( = obsolete pedagogic premisse ) actually is vastly depending on imagination.
From there:
Minute knowledge / awareness can hardly ever distract or harm, but rather be priceless support to gain.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 7 2011 15:54:04
 
yohan

Posts: 306
Joined: Feb. 5 2007
 

RE: Picado attack, do you really nee... (in reply to John O.

Thanks a lot for all the replies, I think it do help, of course in the end you just need to practise. Which I'm doing a lot lately with all these tips, I even got blister on my index. yeah!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 7 2011 15:57:41
 
DoctorX2k2

 

Posts: 211
Joined: Jun. 14 2006
From: Quebec City, Canada

RE: Picado attack, do you really nee... (in reply to Ruphus

Ruphus,

Nobody said that if you didn't train your speed while young you'd never be fast. You have to accept that you would have probably been even faster if you did. Speed remains trainable over a lifetime, it's just not as easy to do. There are many factors involved in speed, not just neural factors which are relatively set by the age of 16.

As for Grisha's arm... you misunderstand my point. He obviously doesn't have extraordinary girth, but he obviously can develop a greater power relatively to his muscle cross-section (Watts/cm^2) than most, if any, of us.

John O,

I have a friend who's a Kung Fu Master. We tested his power in a laboratory at the University. His relative strength (to his body weigth) and power were phenomenal compared to powerlifters and even olympic lifters. Obviously, if you asked him to do a Clean and Jerk, he wouldn't be technically able to lift similar weights. The guy weighted about 65kg (143 pounds). Be aware that hypertrophy (Arnold body type) doesn't result in maximal power or strength, even though it helps. You can be strong and have little power and vice-versa. Power is the ability to generate the highest possible force in the shortest time, while strength is just the highest absolute force one can develop, no matter the time. Bigger muscle cross-section (hypertrophy) does give you more strength and tend to hinder power because of the extra weight you have to move. Power training methods which stimulate the nervous system with little to no hypertrophy is what we should be aiming for. Should guitarists hit the gym are have Popeye like forearms? No. Should they try to maximize their power (neural schemes)? Yes. The fire-release cycle of fingers is similar to legs when sprinting.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 7 2011 17:41:29
 
orsonw

Posts: 1929
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Picado attack, do you really nee... (in reply to DoctorX2k2

quote:

The fire-release cycle of fingers is similar to legs when sprinting.


Except sadly, unlike with gait for the limbs, fingers have no picado pattern-generating reflexes built in to neural circuits at the spinal level. The next evolutionary stage!


Until then let's enjoy Paco Fernandez' aire and great right hand, (picado at 0.54).

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 7 2011 18:41:48
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14640
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Picado attack, do you really nee... (in reply to orsonw

quote:

A 2003 study of professional flamenco guitarists in Andalucia found 87.5% showed signs of overuse syndrome. Amongst those affected 82.1% reported deterioration in their playing ability. (Marques et al 2003)


Main causes of this problem in flamenco players is:
1. Paco de lucia

2. Dancers

3. Slow reacting computer mouses used for por... I mean net surfing.

The remaining 18% guitarists did not notice any problem cuz they were coked up.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 7 2011 19:29:25
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