Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.
RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to Doitsujin)
Yes! Exactly! Theory comes AFTER practice! This is what all theory and composition teachers tell us!
And another great example is the autodidactic composer (like flamencos): Luis de Pablo is an autodidactic composer and is considered by many in the world to be the best composer in Spain. He writes what he plays without a thought given to theory, only emotion and affect.
RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to Guest)
"The result is that he uses a two-thousand year old theory to explain a one-two hundred year old music."
1) Flamenco is older than you give it credit
"By that logic, we should use the church modes to analyze Beethoven" 2) We use Rameau and Schenker
"I was talking about a specific phenomenon that I have noticed in the solea de alcala. In the first tercio the singer ascends from tonic to the fourth (e-a) and is accompanied by an E chord that "resolves" to an A minor." 3) The Flamenco dominant of Am, is B half-diminished, so says Manolo. He is not the only authority, but I choose to follow his school of thought and I follow his expertise. He says it is lethal for flamenco to pass to the Am chord from E7. What is correct according to him is B half dim, and if it is altered it is done with with an added E on top (add11th). Vicente uses this chord all the time, but with the E bass note, like a B-half-dim chord over an E bass (Bhalf-dim7/E).
"However, a flatted g# sounds closer to gnat and the guitarist will respond with a G chord. " 4) Please clarify. Do you mean G+ (quarter tone)?
Regarding your microtone question, I haven't read your post, I will not and will respond, I love this topic. The Greeks even though they had three different versions of each tetrachord (genus), diatonic: Tone-Tone-Semitone (descending) and chromatic: m3, semitone, semitone, and the enharmonic, M3, Quarter-tone, Quarter-tone; The Greeks preferred the diatonic genus and preferred "Equal temperment" More soon.
RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to chester)
I agree Chester! The Schenkerian analysis may be used to analyze any music, even flamenco, as long as one considers that the dominant chord in flamenco is bIIMaj7 or bII7 and that secondary dominants in flamenco are always a tone or semitone above the secondary chord, ex: dominant chord of Am in por Arriba (e), is B half-diminished and may also posses the seventh, and 11th). Put the 11th in the bass and you have a very common chord that Vicente uses to go to Am in por Arriba.
RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to Guest)
quote:
@ Corey: I am interested. Although I respect Manolo greatly, his theory is inadequate to explain flamenco in any meaningful way. Something that he acknowledges and then ignores is that the modo dorico contains no sharps or flats. How does one then talk about the tonic chord? Some Greek schools used theory (math) as a path to spiritual and mental development and were not interested in explaining actual practice. How, therefore, can we use it to describe a practice that emerged two thousand years later?
I already responded to the part about the tonic chord having the G#, in part, what I failed to add was that when a singer sings the final note, alone, with no accompaniment, the G#, IS, present, in the harmonic series, and is amplified by the room, or by the PA and the room. So the guitar must respond.
And a very important side-note about Manolo's system of application and modulation of Dorico Griego to all seven flamenco tonal centers (E, F#, G#, A, B, C#, and D#), and others such as D, and G. He was accompanying Carmen Linares in preparation for recording Locura de Brisa y Trini and as he followed her by necessity with a single palo to many different keys, he found a modulatory scale, Greek Mixolydian, and a chord that resulted from it (half-diminished) and how it enabled him to modulate anywhere. He begins all of his Fantasia-like entradas with a long improvisation on this scale and chord, and uses Whole-tone also (from the cantes Levantes) and then goes wherever the singer takes him by necessity. And because it is necessary for the guitars to modulate in this way when accompanying Carmen Linares, then it IS valid in flamenco. He adds that it is HIS system, the HE created, and it is Tierra Nueva in the world of flamenco. That is Manolo, knowing all that I know about music, I follow him. It is not for everyone, not right away, i takes time to sink in, and even then, half the people don't think he is correct, in fact some think he is crazy, I don't thinks so, but Manolo tells us, "If you are not a little bit loco, you will create nothing"
I think that should be our first focus, "Are we a little bit loco?" Then theory. Crazy first, theory second :) This is why some of us who know a little bit of theory and are a little crazy, will be just fine :)
RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to coreydefresno)
quote:
Vicente uses this chord all the time, but with the E bass note, like a B-half-dim chord over an E bass (Bhalf-dim7/E).
hmmmm....thats actually an Esus4(b9) or E11(b9) chord ...... E is the dominant of A minor. B half-diminished is a passing chord. It does not have the characteristics necessary to qualify as a dominant chord as it does not dominate by insisting that it be followed by another chord unless of course if it functions as a G9 or G13(if the open E 1s string is added as it is normally done in flamenco) in first inversion. There it functions as a dominant chord with a target of C.
I personally prefer in many cases to approach an A minor chord from E7's tri-tone substitution Bb9(#11).... I guess for palos such as Tangos de Malaga, Tangos del Titi and Tangos del Piyayo, not to mention Farruca, you might be completely screwed with Manolo's perspective on the E7 - Aminor cadence as that is THE way the basic compas is played. Play a traditional compas...... fatal. I think perhaps Manolo's teachings are being misinterpreted here. That would be my guess. But, I am an open minded person and I look forward to hearing more on this.
There are many ways to look at harmony. That goes for flamenco or any other music. Discussion is good.
RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to elroby)
quote:
and just as I'm about to kneel in the grace of their presence and limitless knowledge I realize their compas is, ummm, lame, don't even ask about baile or cante.
Do you have to be so hard on me Roby? Jeesh give a guy a break.
RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to coreydefresno)
quote:
The Flamenco dominant of Am, is B half-diminished, so says Manolo
B half diminshed could also be called a G9 chord minus the root which is the dominant chord of Cmajor and is a natural resolution for both C major and A minor, correct since A minor could also be viewed as a Cmaj sixth chord. I understand what Manolo is thinking however I don't agree with the dogma.
RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to coreydefresno)
Have you heard the works of Luis de Pablo? I have, and if he is the considered to be the best composer is Spain that does not say much about Spanish composers.
RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to coreydefresno)
quote:
3) The Flamenco dominant of Am, is B half-diminished, so says Manolo. He is not the only authority, but I choose to follow his school of thought and I follow his expertise. He says it is lethal for flamenco to pass to the Am chord from E7.
RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to JasonMcGuire)
im curious what peoples thoughts are on the topic of music theory concerning rhythm.
i am pretty certain that my knowledge of rhythm, is helping me to understand compas, Im sure i could still learn it without this knowledge, but I do feel like it is making it a bit easier for me because i understand rhythm in its theoretical sense (to a certain degree)
RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to coreydefresno)
quote:
Some Greek schools used theory (math) as a path to spiritual and mental development and were not interested in explaining actual practice.
pythagoras of samoa mapped out the overtone series of frequency (the 12 notes we use in western music) but he wasnt a musician. his pursuits were more mathmatical, then lead to religious
RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to rogeliocan)
I found this site to show chord diagrams from the chord name. I don't know how accurate the output chords are but it's the best I've seen. You throw it a chord name and it spits out the diagrams. It's nice, I typed in Ab phrygian and it showd some chords... are they correct?
Could someone who knows his chords test it out? I would appreciate it. Thanks.
It will be useful to verify the chord I come up with when trying to find one.
RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to JasonMcGuire)
quote:
And more E7 to A minor
por Fandango de Huelva
Dear Jason, I hear you, everyone in the course asks this at some point. First one should read Manolo's book in order to know what he means regarding this E7-Am being lethal for flamenco.
I see that you have Manolo's book, you should read it, the answers are there.