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RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to JasonMcGuire)
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Corey, what word would you use?
Dear Jason,
Certainly I do not have the camino, or persona to say such things. I am just a ward of the state of California, one step from the funny farm.
I can't say really, Ricardo and the other gent had a valid point about the G# the Solea de Alcala, and there are a few other examples that I need to ask Manolo about. I am very curious to know what he says about this. Of course he would say that Bamberas have Western European harmony. I have a feeling Manolo will tell me about the way the singer "escapes" from the "g#," approaching the "a" from above (c-b-a).
I am sure you guys can come to your own conclusions, I will be glad to share what I find out from the godfather if anyone is interested.
RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to coreydefresno)
quote:
Dear Jason, Proverbs 10:19
how cultish. talk a lot and then quote the bible about holding your tongue.
And still no reply about the E7 to A minor chord change in Solea de Triana heard on many anthology recordings. Still no response about the E7 to A minor chord change that occurs in the salida of nearly every Malagueña recorded.
you are a PHD with an ABD in theory.... certainly you have a long enough camino to voice your own thoughts. even when taking in the thoughts and ideas of a great artist like Manolo Sanlucar, you have to use a certain amount of common sense as a filter. There is a REALLY crazy dude running around Kalifornia who used to transcribe stuff for Requeni and Paco (or so he says).... be careful Corey, I wouldn't want you to end up crazy like this guy....
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Hey man, no worries. You are right. It was a bit selfish to go off into crazy-theory land, but not all Phds want to be pencil pushers. That stung.
Sorry Kevin. I know that term doesn't suit you. Apologies.
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Something good did come from it. Your threads on scales are great. If there were 10 threads like that from 10 people...we would be closer to reaching some of the potential for this great forum. This is a great community, as proven by the help care for Neal.
Anyway...when's the next scale thread?
I felt bad for having been partially responsible for this thread getting off point and I wanted to do something positive. I tried to make the info more accessible and I tried to keep the original post as short as possible.
I will do another scale soon. Lets give a little time and let those who are new to the concepts and trying it out get more familiar.
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Like Dr. Diaz. I know this person is considered a pariah around here and he certainly deserves it. With all these weird phrases like "tips never explain before on the Internet..." etc But there is some good material on his yutu channel for those who are willing to ignore his suspicious behavior (claro!). For example he points some interesting exercices for improving the rasgueados
I think his videos contain a lot of useful information. Just don't drink the kool-aid when he tells you its time to. I would love to hear him just accompany a singer instead of a recording of Camaron with Paco playing. He has some great technical exercises and his music theory is solid. I guess we all have our quirks. I make cartoons and b-itch about fake flamenco like Benise, he sells fake guitars and makes strange claims about the innovations of Paco de Lucia. Paco is a super important innovator but certainly not the ONLY innovator. Corey is hung up on E7-A minor changes because he is under the spell of Manolo Sanlucar and wanted to come and use that statement to put a couple of people in "their place." I'm not exactly sure that it worked, but it seems like that was the motivation to me. I don't need to reflect on the length of my camino to know when what I am hearing on countless recordings is an E7 moving to A minor. Javier talks about Beans, Tacos and other mexican food to demonstrate the sound of certain rasgueados.
Human Beings..... from the most famous and influential to the phD, ward of the state, to the local heavy strumming dance accompanist to the forum administrator who gets put off by the bong jokes. What a colorful bunch.
Doit that was your cue
I am going to ask Corey to please stop obsessing about the length of his camino and perhaps consider using the thing in front of him on his desk with little square buttons and letter on them to type some helpful info for these amazing foro members. Lets try and be those 10 people posting good info about theory as Kevin put it.
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If there were 10 threads like that from 10 people...we would be closer to reaching some of the potential for this great forum. This is a great community, as proven by the help care for Neal.
Damn.... I have a headache... I stayed out really late after my gig drinking and jamming with Paco Albiac, Fanny, Marina, Paul Psarras and friend from Cordoba David Paez and his wife. My nails are completely destroyed, I'm hungover and feel like sh-it despite the belly full of laughs and smiles. Paco isn't the greatest singer in the world, but he is from Tres Mil in Sevilla and he has been around a lot of flamenco. He's a good guy and he told me that he has been lurking here recently and would like to post but feels like his English isn't good enough. Perhaps if a few of you twist his arm, he might join the circus. I think his perspective on flamenco might be interesting for some here. Not to mention he might be into singing and recording a few letras for cante accompaniment challenges. I have been complimented by some really great singers in my life about my accompaniment, but when a guy like Paco compliments you its different.
Also..... any Bay Area people wanting to learn cante accompaniment should book some lessons with Felix de Lola. He plays guitar well with a lot of soniquette and can show a guitarist what and when to play. He used to do a group class but it kind of fizzled out. He is going on tour Jan. and Feb. but he is here all of December. Felix is also willing to do Skype lessons with guitarists who want to know more about cante. He can be contacted by email at felixdelola@gmail.com
RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to JasonMcGuire)
RAWR
Cool, Jason thx!
I will tell you all about neuromuscular teaching techniques.
Yeah, please lets meet up. I am sure we will have allot to talk about. Tacos and Burritos sounds great! You name that place and I am there.
p.s. Why doesn't my pic appear? I am such a hansome devil and no can see....
_____________________________
His amazing technique is one that never loses touch with the spiritual improvisation and direct communication style of flamenco and which does not make virtuosity a goal in itself, but communicates deep sublime emotional qualities. - Manolo Sanlucar
RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to JasonMcGuire)
quote:
And still no reply about the E7 to A minor chord change in Solea de Triana heard on many anthology recordings. Still no response about the E7 to A minor chord change that occurs in the salida of nearly every Malagueña recorded.
Dear Jason,
I was trying to conceal these secrets, and you have forced my hand.
OK, Here is what I think:
I think that the real chord at the the end of Granainas is Em, play that for Manolo, and secondary dominants as often as possible, play jazz harmonies, and pentatonic scales...and complex chord substitution, in flamenco.
Also, make sure to inspire the singer by playing loud, so he/she will step it up to your level, and bang out the compas on the guitar, hard so the singer does not lose his or her place.
Singers love noodling and playing from the heart, I agree.
RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to Joven35)
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And if you chose, you can come and study with Manolo in 2011, in Fresno. We are even working on getting scholarships for people. This is also one of the benefits of having a fancy piece of paper with letterin' on it;
Hey, put me on the list of people to use the fancy paper to help, and keep me informed about exact dates and schedule for Manolo in Fresno.
Michael Chapman 600 Forbes Avenue Pittsburgh Pennsylvania 15282 chapman_g@yahoo.com 412-396-5486
RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to JasonMcGuire)
quote:
Or how about Livianas?
The first instance is E-Am, not E7. The second where he plays E7, has a very abrupt rest, before moving to Am via the melodic C-B-A, which emphasizes the "modal" sound. The idea, according to my teacher, is to avoid this kind of E7-Am relationship when the cante does not warrant the E7, chord. Instead play E Major.
When the cante does dictate that the guitarist play the E7 chord, according to all of my teachers from Cordoba, prior to the Am, there should be a rest. The guitarist should not be playing all of the time, Morao shows this perfectly. My teachers criticize the kind of accompaniment that does not utilize rest, especially to avoid harmonic artifacts of Tonality.
This is a particular criticism of those who do not make use of rest in Buleria, those who jangle away without utilizing rest, they are instructed to change this practice.
RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to JasonMcGuire)
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how about the E7 to A minor in Solea de Frijones?
He does it perfectly as Manolo says, they are compadres, Manolo uses this as an example of how to accompany perfectly. I think you misunderstand me and Manolo.
Have you read Manolo's book? I am getting tired of this. Do you need the english version? Do you not speak, and read, in Spanish?
If not, that speaks for itself. I have nothing more to say to you anyway.
"To play flamenco, one must have proper grammar" Manolo Sanlucar
RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to coreydefresno)
quote:
We had an opportunity to help some people understand theory better and not be so reluctant to check it out and we f-ucked up.
i just want to point out, that although this thread has gotten a bit messy, and confusing, its still going well in my opinion. there is so much information here, its just not all clearly stated. but to anyone reading who is actually serious about learning this stuff, its a gold mine. heaps of referenced knowledge, and more then enough explanation on many points to point people in the right direction if they decide to research further
my advice to anyone reading this who cant follow it, it to stop each time you come across something that doesnt make sence, and research that point, then move on. the internet is a very good tool for this
RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to JasonMcGuire)
quote:
Still no response about the E7 to A minor chord change that occurs in the salida of nearly every Malagueña recorded.
Did you read my post analyzing the Malaguena of Manolo?
I spent a while writing that. It is a shame that you post after me saying I did not respond to you.
If I were to spend my days answering to BS like this, I would never practice.
I am tired of this, it is obvious that no matter how completely I answer you, you still say these things? Why? It is obvious that you are trying to pick a fight and trying to antagonize me.
quote:
this section of post removed due it being inflamatory material and being off topic. Likewise the issue raised in this section of the post has been dealt with by private PM'S and the issue has been resolved.
done by Moderator Henrym3483
You need to go back to your teachers and get lessons in humility. Ask your Spanish friends if they know ANY great artist that acts without humility, and in fact acts boorishly, rudely, uncivil.
How can your corporate sponsors stand this? How can the socially responsible companies endorse this? How can human beings stand this?
RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to coreydefresno)
quote:
Also, make sure to inspire the singer by playing loud, so he/she will step it up to your level, and bang out the compas on the guitar, hard so the singer does not lose his or her place.
corey you don't play for dancers do you? i was in spain last month my girlfriend taking a weeks dance class, and the first 3 days there was no guitarist, so i played on my own for the class, unamplified, and the teacher was saying "ma peso, ma fuerte" every day (even though most people think i play pretty loud and hard - some might say heavy handed ).... then on day 4 a nephew of Rancapino turned up with the most unbelievable rasgeo, incredible "weight" and "strength", totally blew me away (but in a good way ) and that's what the dancers want.....
When accompanying solea i often hear guitarists play the above chord with a rasqueado strongly marking 1,2 3, then silent on the 4,5,6 then sev, en 8 marked as down strokes then E7 on nine and Am on 10.
This is incorrect and one should hold off from playing the E7? Play either E or remain silent?
Is this the general idea? Please forgive my limited understanding of theory.
Perhaps you could share a few videos of guitarists making this error and guitarists playing correctly so i can listen for the difference in context with my ear.
RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to mark indigo)
quote:
orey you don't play for dancers do you? i was in spain last month my girlfriend taking a weeks dance class, and the first 3 days there was no guitarist, so i played on my own for the class, unamplified, and the teacher was saying "ma peso, ma fuerte" every day (even though most people think i play pretty loud and hard - some might say heavy handed ).... then on day 4 a nephew of Rancapino turned up with the most unbelievable rasgeo, incredible "weight" and "strength", totally blew me away (but in a good way ) and that's what the dancers want.....
I do yes, thanks for asking. I agree one need's peso in accompaniment. If you read my post and all of the posts here that refer to banging on the guitar and playing loud, maybe the context would be clearer.
RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to coreydefresno)
quote:
When the cante does dictate that the guitarist play the E7 chord, according to all of my teachers from Cordoba, prior to the Am, there should be a rest. The guitarist should not be playing all of the time, Morao shows this perfectly. My teachers criticize the kind of accompaniment that does not utilize rest, especially to avoid harmonic artifacts of Tonality.
Corey, sorry but i've got troubles with english language. Could you explicite what you mean when you mention "the rest". I have no idea what this word/concept is about
Thks.
_____________________________
"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)
RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to coreydefresno)
could any of you guys who seem to have understood manolo, post an example of what he means, ie what E7-Am thing should be avoided??? in solea i have never heard that the key changed to Am without going back to E some time. in buleria we all know many of them move from A to Amajor or Aminor, WITHOUT going back to A.
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to know when what I am hearing on countless recordings is an E7 moving to A minor. Javier talks about Beans, Tacos and other mexican food to demonstrate the sound of certain rasgueados. 
).... then on day 4 a nephew of Rancapino turned up with the most unbelievable rasgeo, incredible "weight" and "strength", totally blew me away (but in a good way 
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