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Cantes de Silverio Franconetti   You are logged in as Guest
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kozz

Posts: 1766
Joined: Feb. 26 2009
From: Eindhoven NL

Cantes de Silverio Franconetti 

Does anybody know where I can find more cantes por seguiriyas from Silverio Franconetti. I've got 3 of them on the Anthology compilation and was wandering if there are more out there.

Thanks!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 20 2010 7:15:27
 
NormanKliman

Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007
 

RE: Cantes de Silverio Franconetti (in reply to kozz

Kozz, nobody really knows the music of the siguiriyas that Silverio sang, so any attribution like that is speculation. Demófilo and others have referred to the letras that Silverio sang, which obviously is probably going to be more reliable information. I don't know why, but the flamencólogos say that Silverio sang the siguiriya of María Borrico, so that's one cante that we can associate with him (but not attribute to him).

There are examples of three styles attributed to Silverio (based on what the flamencólogos say) on my website:

http://www.canteytoque.es/sigclas.htm

Style 1 is in the Cádiz section and styles 2 and 3 are in the Triana section.

Silverio had a few followers (Chacón, Tenazas and I think Carito or maybe Chato de Jerez) but their knowledge of him has been lost, aside from comments made in old newspaper interviews and things like that. Pepe el de La Matrona might have spoken about Silverio in his biography, but I think all he remembered was Chacón's admiration of Silverio.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 20 2010 10:57:34
 
kozz

Posts: 1766
Joined: Feb. 26 2009
From: Eindhoven NL

RE: Cantes de Silverio Franconetti (in reply to NormanKliman

Thanks Norman!
I found a cante similar to this one on your page:

y por Puerta de Tierra
no quiero pasar
porque me acuerdo ay de mi amigo Enrique
me harto (de) llorar

in the book I am reading atm:

Por Puerta e Tierra
no quiro pasa
porque me acuerdo de mi amigo Enrique
y me echo a llora

I will take some time to read through your pages, there's a whole lot of information.
The book I am reading mentions he also had owned a popular bar in Sevilla, El Cafe de Silverio.
It also mentions that Silverio learned the cantes from Diego El Fillo, who's younger brother was killed in Silverio's cafe, and after that Silverio took off to Spanish America.

More and more I start to understand that the past remains a big mystery. A lot of stories, more or less the same...and that understanding the cantes is a vital part for understanding the past.
I believed it was all very well documented, but I am wrong, and the more appreciate all the effort you are putting into it Norman!
Thank you very much!

These are the tracks that I have, that refer to Silverio...



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 20 2010 12:21:27
 
NormanKliman

Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007
 

RE: Cantes de Silverio Franconetti (in reply to kozz

quote:

I found a cante similar to this one on your page


Yeah, Manolo Caracol's version of that cante. If I remember right, "Enrique" was one of Caracol's ancestors (Enrique Ortega) and Silverio supposedly sang that letra after his friend Enrique had died.

quote:

It also mentions that Silverio learned the cantes from Diego El Fillo, who's younger brother was killed in Silverio's cafe, and after that Silverio took off to Spanish America.


The story is that Silverio's family moved to Morón. He used to listen to gitanos sing at a blacksmith's forge near his house. Shortly after that, El Fillo started to frequent Morón and encouraged Silverio to continue learning to sing. At that time, El Fillo was a well-known professional singer and Silverio was just 10 years old.

El Fillo's brother was supposedly named Juan Encueros and they say he was stabbed to death during a fight at a bar (I don't know if it was Silverio's café). Supposedly, it was discovered after the fight that he'd been stabbed through his cape (I guess a hole in the cape coincided with the knife wound), and the conclusion was that he'd been stabbed in the back or something. Some doubt the whole story, although there's a very old reference to El Fillo having a brother named Juan Encueros or something very simlilar (might be in Demófilo's book, written in the late 1800s). Mairena sang a letra (siguiriya attributed to El Fillo) about the murder of Juan Encueros:

Mataste a mi hermano
ayy yyy yyy yyyyyy no te he perdonado
tú lo has matado
tú lo mataste liadito en su capa
sin hacerte nada

Silverio sang professionally in Seville, Cádiz and Madrid before leaving for Latin America, so it seems that he wasn't the one who killed El Fillo's brother. Pepe el de La Matrona claimed that Silverio did actually kill someone and had to leave the country for that reason, but José Blas Vega, in his biography of Silverio, wrote that he'd found no kind of evidence to support what Pepe had said. Some people have tried to "connect the dots" and claim that El Nitri's supposed refusal to ever sing in front of Silverio was because of one of those murders. Silverio went to Buenos Aires; Demófilo wrote that he spent eight years in Montevideo (Uruguay). I read somewhere that he was an officer in the military in Uruguay and that there might be some kind of official military records with information on him (full name: Silverio Franconetti y Aguilar).

There's a lot more information to be found in Demófilo's book and José Blas Vega's biography of Silverio.

quote:

...the past remains a big mystery. A lot of stories, more or less the same...


Using anthologies and track titles can be even more confusing for at least two reasons: (1) Anthology liner notes are syntheses of information appearing in books and specialized magazines, and this information changes all the time as more conclusive research is published. Also, the information isn't always extracted correctly from its sources. (2) Sometimes a singer or the producer of a recording will attribute an entire track to an artist when only one of the cantes actually has to do with the attribution, and often the letra is the only connection to the artist in question. For example, Mairena's "Mis recuerdos de Charamusco" starts with a soleá attributed to Silverio (style 2). They say that someone played this track for one of Charamusco's children and the man immediately said that it had nothing to do with his father's cante. I always wondered if he'd only heard that first cante.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 20 2010 14:59:16
 
kozz

Posts: 1766
Joined: Feb. 26 2009
From: Eindhoven NL

RE: Cantes de Silverio Franconetti (in reply to NormanKliman

Thanks Norman,
I'll see if I can track one of those books you mentioned in this and previous post.

quote:

Demófilo wrote that he spent eight years in Montevideo (Uruguay). I read somewhere that he was an officer in the military in Uruguay and that there might be some kind of official military records with information on him (full name: Silverio Franconetti y Aguilar).

Yes, thats what I read also, and before that he was a picador it seemed.

Norman, I do have "problems" placing this in the right context. Was all this before the guitar made his appearance?
I remember a scene from "Rito y Geografia del Cante" were there was this mans-brotherhood, only singing, but in a way very hostile. Those were nicely dressed men, so I can only imagine that at younger age there must have been more competition between the cantaores.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 20 2010 18:42:11
 
NormanKliman

Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007
 

RE: Cantes de Silverio Franconetti (in reply to kozz

quote:

Was all this before the guitar made his appearance?


One of the oldest tocaores whose existence isn't doubted was Patiño. He played a lot for Enrique El Mellizo and was around in Silverio's day.

As we've mentioned here on the forum, a smaller version of the six-string guitar existed in 1800, although I've read that there were advertisements announcing the instrument for sale a decade or two before that.

According to Blas Vega, Silverio's year of birth was probably between 1830 and 1840. As mentioned upthread, El Fillo was older than Silverio. There was an even older singer named El Planeta, so it seems that there were flamenco singers in the earliest days of the guitar's popularity.

quote:

I remember a scene from "Rito y Geografia del Cante" were there was this mans-brotherhood, only singing, but in a way very hostile. Those were nicely dressed men,...


Do you remember anything else about it?

Hmmm, nicely dressed and hostile... Was it this?


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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 20 2010 20:34:07
 
kozz

Posts: 1766
Joined: Feb. 26 2009
From: Eindhoven NL

RE: Cantes de Silverio Franconetti (in reply to NormanKliman

quote:

As we've mentioned here on the forum, a smaller version of the six-string guitar existed in 1800, although I've read that there were advertisements announcing the instrument for sale a decade or two before that.


Ok, I'll have to search for the thread.
But thanks for interpreting it right, that I ment the 6-string guitar, and not the kythara (which I like very much in Ethiopian religious songs).
Funny, that a lot of titles of flamenco albums and songs, make more sence to me now with all the relationships. I did not know that Ziryab was singer/composer from Bagdad, and that he (not personally) was in a way responsible for the 5th string (although I cannot recall why).


quote:

Do you remember anything else about it?
Hmmm, nicely dressed and hostile... Was it this?

I believe it is from the same DVD...I'll see if I can rip that part. It was in a bar at a long table, and there were discussing the origin of a certain palo....with a lot of passion ofcourse

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 21 2010 9:58:16
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13523
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Cantes de Silverio Franconetti (in reply to NormanKliman

For me Pena Hijo (8:30) is the best by far! Makes me wonder about how silverio ACTUALLY sang.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 15 2020 17:56:02
 
Morante

 

Posts: 1935
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: Cantes de Silverio Franconetti (in reply to Ricardo

Chacon knew Silverio and sang many times in his cafe. José Blas Vega says "Para Chacón fue primordial, fundamental, esta relacion con Silverio". It seems likely that influence of Silverio could be found in some of the cante of Chacón.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 16 2020 10:35:14
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13523
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Cantes de Silverio Franconetti (in reply to Morante

I was thinking the same, however why wouldn’t he recreate any specific attributions on recordings?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 18 2020 16:47:16
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13523
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Cantes de Silverio Franconetti (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

For me Pena Hijo (8:30) is the best by far! Makes me wonder about how silverio ACTUALLY sang.




Does anybody know of any other versions of the first cante “Silverio 1” other than Pepe de Matrona? That part from 2:08 is intriguing to me, but I can find no other version by any singer.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 13 2022 14:04:18
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