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I am reasonably convinced that the B/S wood of a guitar is much less important than many other factors. But I am also convinced that stiffness and density are important to B/S woods.
So, given those factors. . . on to aesthetic considerations: what woods have the most spectacular figure?
The most spectacular I have seen so far are Jacaranda rosewood (from Indonesia, I think), and Palo Escrito (Mexican rosewood). Any other candidates?
If minimizing the overall mass of the guitar is assumed to be a prime consideration (after top wood, of course), which, of ALL commonly-used b/s woods give the maximum stiffness for the minimum density?
_____________________________
"Flamenco is so emotionally direct that a trained classical musician would require many years of highly disciplined formal study to fail to understand it."
RE: what is the most b/s wood for sp... (in reply to a_arnold)
quote:
ORIGINAL: a_arnold
If minimizing the overall mass of the guitar is assumed to be a prime consideration (after top wood, of course), which, of ALL commonly-used b/s woods give the maximum stiffness for the minimum density?
Posts: 441
Joined: Mar. 19 2009
From: San Francisco Bay Area
RE: what is the most b/s wood for sp... (in reply to a_arnold)
I find bubinga and lacewood to be interesting. Bubinga is reputed to have more of the qualities found in Rosewood. Lacewood supposedly affects the tone of a guitar in the same way as aged mahogany. Both can come highly figured.
Amusingly, although both woods supposedly have superior qualities to rosewood and mahogany respectively, they are both occasionally sneered at because ... dat-da-dah ... they are cheap alternative tonewoods.
I would however love to have a negra done in ziricote (see below). Can't you just see the hills of Spain right there?
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RE: what is the most b/s wood for sp... (in reply to GuitarVlog)
quote:
ORIGINAL: GuitarVlog
I would however love to have a negra done in ziricote (see below). Can't you just see the hills of Spain right there?
I agree with you that ziricote is spectacular. I had one set of it that I let cure for many years and just this year decided to build a negra with it. I sanded the sides ultra thin and the first one still broke when I put it to the bending iron. What a shame! Now I have a back and one side that are only good for overlays. Oh well, it's the successes and failures that make guitar making interesting and sometimes very frustrating.
RE: what is the most b/s wood for sp... (in reply to a_arnold)
I'd dig it if someone made like a cypress and claro walnut ply back and sides. two realllly thin plys. light stiff cypress and then a wacky wacky curly walnut exterior
RE: what is the most b/s wood for sp... (in reply to GuitarVlog)
quote:
ORIGINAL: GuitarVlog
quote:
ORIGINAL: jshelton5040 I sanded the sides ultra thin and the first one still broke when I put it to the bending iron. What a shame!
I think one of the problems I read about ziricote is that it can be difficult to work with. Is it a more brittle wood?
Ziricote is very hard and resonous. I couldn't believe how much sandpaper I had to use in the thickness sander to get it down to size. I suspect the reason the side broke was that it was not sawn correctly. It's a common problem when buying figured woods. The vendor puts a moron who knows nothing about wood on the resaw and says "go to it". Sides need to have little or no runout which even with a skilled eye is not easy to spot on some figured woods.
Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston
RE: what is the most b/s wood for sp... (in reply to a_arnold)
John, I think one wood that has similar properties as cypress with respect to denisity, workability and color is tulip poplar, AKA yellow poplar AKA Liriodendron tulipifera. The density is almost identical to cypress and wood has a creamy color with streaks much like cypress. As to the sound, that I do not know but given the density is the same and the wood has other characteristics similar to cypress I would suspect it migh give cypress a run for its' money. Something to investigate?
"Flamenco is so emotionally direct that a trained classical musician would require many years of highly disciplined formal study to fail to understand it."
RE: what is the most b/s wood for sp... (in reply to jshelton5040)
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: a_arnold
If minimizing the overall mass of the guitar is assumed to be a prime consideration (after top wood, of course), which, of ALL commonly-used b/s woods give the maximum stiffness for the minimum density?
from j_shelton5040:
Sitka Spruce.
So . . . surely, if Torres built one with a papier mache b/s, someone has built a guitar with spruce b/s, and yet one never sees them. Why not? What was the result? Why didn't it work?
_____________________________
"Flamenco is so emotionally direct that a trained classical musician would require many years of highly disciplined formal study to fail to understand it."
RE: what is the most b/s wood for sp... (in reply to jshelton5040)
quote:
I sanded the sides ultra thin and the first one still broke when I put it to the bending iron. What a shame!
Hmm. Doesn't anybody sell sides without the back? Maybe you could try again with another side pair, if the figure is that spectacular. Or is it just too brittle? Would it have been less likely to break if it had been thicker?
_____________________________
"Flamenco is so emotionally direct that a trained classical musician would require many years of highly disciplined formal study to fail to understand it."
RE: what is the most b/s wood for sp... (in reply to a_arnold)
quote:
ORIGINAL: a_arnold
So . . . surely, if Torres built one with a papier mache b/s, someone has built a guitar with spruce b/s, and yet one never sees them. Why not? What was the result? Why didn't it work?
I have and who said it didn't work? I've also used Red Cedar, Damar Minyak, Kavula and others. Years ago I built a guitar with plexiglas sides and back which sounded fine. I like the Damar Minyak the best.
Some of us are of the opinion that the back and sides have minimal impact on the sound of the guitar. I probably shouldn't have said that since I don't want to start another discussion regarding blanca verses negra.
RE: what is the most b/s wood for sp... (in reply to a_arnold)
quote:
ORIGINAL: a_arnold
Hmm. Doesn't anybody sell sides without the back? Maybe you could try again with another side pair, if the figure is that spectacular. Or is it just too brittle? Would it have been less likely to break if it had been thicker?
They do but I'm getting too old to wait another 10 years for it to cure. I suspect the sides were incorrectly cut judging by the way it broke. Thin is generally easier to bend than thick.
RE: what is the most b/s wood for sp... (in reply to jshelton5040)
quote:
So . . . surely, if Torres built one with a papier mache b/s, someone has built a guitar with spruce b/s, and yet one never sees them. Why not? What was the result? Why didn't it work?
I have and who said it didn't work?
I was assuming that anything -- including spruce -- that had a significant positive effect on sound would have been adopted as a b/s wood. Everyone would be using it.
Personally, I think that the actual b/s wood is irrelevant, but guitars with massive construction of non-soundboard parts (Smallman, Fleta, etc) tend to have more sustain and projection because it forces more of the string energy to be dissipated by the soundboard (because that is the only thing that can vibrate); lighter construction yields transient response.
Were you trying to minimize the mass of the guitar or was there some other motive for trying spruce?
_____________________________
"Flamenco is so emotionally direct that a trained classical musician would require many years of highly disciplined formal study to fail to understand it."
RE: what is the most b/s wood for sp... (in reply to jshelton5040)
quote:
Some of us are of the opinion that the back and sides have minimal impact on the sound of the guitar. I probably shouldn't have said that since I don't want to start another discussion regarding blanca verses negra.
No, I agree with you. I don't think that you will start another discussion on that, though. Mainly because most got tired of that merry-go-round a long time ago.
The only aspects of the back/sides that I can see having a measurable effect are the mass of the b/s wood, and maybe putting a finish on the inside. I think that the most significant factor in rosewoods is their density and therefore their contribution to mass. But that's just one more opinion, and we all know what opinions are like . . .
_____________________________
"Flamenco is so emotionally direct that a trained classical musician would require many years of highly disciplined formal study to fail to understand it."
RE: what is the most b/s wood for sp... (in reply to jshelton5040)
quote:
They do but I'm getting too old to wait another 10 years for it to cure.
Tragic to have a beautiful piece of wood an not be able to use it the way it was meant to be used. Maybe there is a cured pair of sides out there with a back that split while curing . . .
_____________________________
"Flamenco is so emotionally direct that a trained classical musician would require many years of highly disciplined formal study to fail to understand it."
Posts: 441
Joined: Mar. 19 2009
From: San Francisco Bay Area
RE: what is the most b/s wood for sp... (in reply to a_arnold)
quote:
ORIGINAL: a_arnold Tragic to have a beautiful piece of wood an not be able to use it the way it was meant to be used. Maybe there is a cured pair of sides out there with a back that split while curing . . .
Maybe Howard Klepper was in the same boat when he produced his Dovetail Madness guitars.
Spruce? Cedar? Blanca? Negra? Take them all!!
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"Flamenco is so emotionally direct that a trained classical musician would require many years of highly disciplined formal study to fail to understand it."
RE: what is the most b/s wood for sp... (in reply to a_arnold)
quote:
ORIGINAL: a_arnold
Tragic to have a beautiful piece of wood an not be able to use it the way it was meant to be used. Maybe there is a cured pair of sides out there with a back that split while curing . . .
Not really, I've always been a wood hoarder so I have more sets of strange wood than I'll ever use. The only wood I buy any more is Cypress, Spanish Cedar and ebony; but considering the quality of the latest Caucasian Spruce I might have to add it to the list. No need to wait 10 years for spruce.
RE: what is the most b/s wood for sp... (in reply to jshelton5040)
quote:
ORIGINAL: jshelton5040
quote:
ORIGINAL: GuitarVlog
Maybe Howard Klepper was in the same boat when he produced his Dovetail Madness guitars.
Spruce? Cedar? Blanca? Negra? Take them all!!
Looks like he bought a dovetailing jig and just couldn't wait to play with it. I did the same thing when I bought my Keller Jig.
Sorry I didn't mean to imply I built guitars with the dovetailing jig, I just played with it. I'm very impressed with the craftsmanship of Mr. Klepper (I wouldn't waste my time doing it but I'm still very impressed )
Posts: 441
Joined: Mar. 19 2009
From: San Francisco Bay Area
RE: what is the most b/s wood for sp... (in reply to a_arnold)
quote:
ORIGINAL: a_arnold Wow. Is all I can say. I hope the sound justifies all that work.
I'm quite sure that it's a very good guitar. Howard is rather well-regarded. I know that I like his steel-strings but they are not anywhere near my budget.
I know that he has designed his own classical guitar. I don't know if he has ever made a flamenco guitar though.
C'mon John! Why let those pieces go to waste? One-up Howard!
RE: what is the most b/s wood for sp... (in reply to jshelton5040)
quote:
I have and who said it didn't work?
So, John: What does a guitar with spruce back and sides sound like? Was it a flamenco? Did you build it that way to keep the weight down? What was your intent in using spruce for b/s? Did it work?
_____________________________
"Flamenco is so emotionally direct that a trained classical musician would require many years of highly disciplined formal study to fail to understand it."
RE: what is the most b/s wood for sp... (in reply to a_arnold)
quote:
ORIGINAL: a_arnold
So, John: What does a guitar with spruce back and sides sound like? Was it a flamenco? Did you build it that way to keep the weight down? What was your intent in using spruce for b/s? Did it work?
I wasn't the first to use spruce for back and sides and I'm sure not the last. I remember the early Aria flamenco guitars from Japan used spruce or some wood that looks exactly like spruce. It sounds fine. The only problem with spruce or cedar for back and sides is it's relatively soft and easy to dent and scratch. Incidently I used spruce because it was what I had. Those early years of guitar making were pretty lean from time to time. When I first started selling the guitars I built I was getting $150 (or less depending on how many mistakes I made). I was imperative that I get wood for as good a price as possible. That meant scouring lumber yards, cabinet shops, gun stock makers, etc. for good buys. It was amazing some of the beautiful pieces of wood that were laying around wood working shops in those days. A wood vendor called Emerson Hardwoods in Portland had a big pile of Brazilian RW planks just lying on the ground in an open air warehouse. At that time they would let you sort through it if you promised to restack it. Not long after that someone apparently smashed a finger or something and no one was allowed in without a salesman. That pretty much closed out the small fry like me. That pile of rosewood would be almost priceless now.
RE: what is the best b/s wood for sp... (in reply to a_arnold)
Hey guys, I'm new here and don't really know much of anything about lutherie, but from a visually aesthetic pov I absolutely love Cocobolo wood... it just makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside every time I see the back of my (classical) guitar :)
Here's a similar one, I'll try to post a pic of mine shortly.
I'm not sure how conducive it is to the flamenco sound, but the wood is incredibly dense and strong and is super resilient to collisions, temperature changes, sweat, sun etc. My only concern after playing this guitar for many years is the yellow portion of the cocobolo - it looks beautiful along the seams, but it's really soft compared to the dark wood, and I fear it will ultimately be the cause of my guitar's demise. Oh well... it looks pretty damn good, though.
RE: what is the best b/s wood for sp... (in reply to a_arnold)
Just thought I'd put these up. A freak find in a timber yard - I was told it's Rio rosewood from about 50 odd years ago - unless someone thinks different? I just split the backs on a newly acquired bandsaw the day before yesterday. It's as dense as I've come accross and has a ring like bell. As mentioned in previous threads, hard wood can be troublesome and there are one or two splits that will need reinforcing from the back. That said, I cant wait to get get cracking with these.
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