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i don't want no speeding ticket! keeping tempo in a group...
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at_leo_87
Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A
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i don't want no speeding ticket! kee...
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hey guys, i've been reading some really cool threads about micotiming, rhythm, compas, etc in the archives. but i couldn't find any concrete advice about not speeding up, or rather fighting other's urge to speed up. i find that it most often happens on the 6,8,10 section. or when i play harder or someone dances louder, or if there's a silence. the excitement seems to provoke speeding up with the palmas. does anyone have any tips or tricks on how to handle this? i've been trying different things but it's really difficult. and when it's verbalized, it usually turns into a silly blame game. WHO'S THE JERK THAT SPED UP!? IM WATCHING YOU!
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Date Apr. 26 2010 10:22:30
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at_leo_87
Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A
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RE: i don't want no speeding ticket!... (in reply to cathulu)
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chris, that's really extreme! i wouldn't want to resort to that! kris, that's a great idea. then maybe i can rule myself out. has anyone ever seen that movie, the thing? the scene where they all have to test their blood to see if they're infected? quote:
Usually the dancer leads the speed ups, no? So what would you do if your test would result in that the dancer is not the best at it? yeah, during speed up, the dancer should lead. but i've experienced a few cases where the musicians had to ignore the dancer and lead the speed up. yikes! quote:
Those who saw their mistakes always developed further, at least thats what i have seen. i've noticed that too. in real life and in this forum. not only does it stop your development, it makes people want to slap you and remind you that you're not god. quote:
Take a baseball bat and crush cajon player's (or the dancer's) head to make it a lesson for the others who speed up for no good reason. but they're nice people. do i have to? quote:
problem is many dancers outside spain view flamenco differently, many do it as a hobby or exercise or just to be out of the house...and thats not even the problem but they are not spending any time on palmas at home or anywhere near enough....unlike us they dont have think to record themselfs so they can hear themselfs...so u have to use what you learned to give them practice ideas and how to approach it as if it was an instrument yes, a lot of the students still seem to think it's just "casual clapping along." one thing i've noticed is that the unsteady ones always hold their hands close to their chest like they're praying. the confident ones who take it seriously hold their hands further out. it's little trick i've learned to warn myself. lol. quote:
its a little strange...only happens during rumba. because no one takes rumbas seriously. jk! quote:
How is it when you are in xtc when playing at home, do you follow the metronome strictly or do you find yourselves shutting down the metronome and continue? ricardo and the rest of this forum have brainwashed me to try to be super tight with the metronome. of course, i'm not perfect but i feel pretty confident with my tempo maintaining abilities. the thing is, i always notice and feel the sensation of being pulled forward when in group situations, i just don't know how to pull it back. after awhile, my leg just gets really tired of stomping so hard! ok, a little off topic, but ricardo's idea that metronomes > compas loops has been resonating with me more and more lately. what are you guys practicing with nowadays?
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Date Apr. 27 2010 8:19:44
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mark indigo
Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
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RE: i don't want no speeding ticket!... (in reply to at_leo_87)
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it's a problem i can relate to.... maybe you could take Ricardo's idea of recording yourself, but record the group etc. and play it back to them so they can hear what they are doing... definitely I would get everyone to play/palm/dance to a metronome, problem is amplifying it enough another idea would be to suggest to the palmeros (how many, one, two, three?) that you get together to practise, then all play to the metronome, you can coach them to get better timing, also find out who is on and who is off. it's easier with one or two people only than a big group. let us know how you get on, you might find some good tips to share! edit: we're all posting at the same time here! i would say be careful of upsetting people, some people think they're really good already and don't need to work on anything, but they still feel really criticised if you try to help them or suggest that there's any need for improvement.
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Date Oct. 7 2010 23:04:57
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at_leo_87
Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A
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RE: i don't want no speeding ticket!... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)
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quote:
Just watch the dancer, she should set the pace and tempo. Or get a good cajon player. What happens when you bring this to the attention of the group? You need to talk about it and if you think the palmas need more practice then make them aware of it. If you have better rhythm then they should follow you. They can watch your foot if they get lost. In the end you should not have students performing with you if they are not ready. it's not so bad with a dancer because i'm accompanying with the guitar and have more control with the tempo. but when i'm play falsetas or doing my solos, that's when it goes to hell. when i pound out the accents, they can follow it. but otherwise, things get really bad. when i bring it up, it usually turns into, "well, but i think you're the one who's off." although, i know pretty much 100% i'm the only one that works at home on this intensively. and with the foot, they still think it's off. lol. quote:
sure why not...tell the teacher, u have to drum into them to practice palmas...my answer was i started a palmas class...slowly but surely the problem or the god thing is that here we have this place we were are critical of each other and we are all aware of it and work like hell on it and develop compas sooner then a dancer that's been dancing the same as you been playing...then you go there and they probably dont have things like this...so its frustrating as hell...make no mistake about it this place makes you analyze everything about your playing i'll try to get them to work on it more. but it doesn't help when they still think it's me who's off. lol. you're right. my standard for flamenco wouldn't be so high if it wasn't for this place. but it's really hard to say something while still trying to be cautious not to hurt someone's ego. and it's especially hard because im the newest one to flamenco in the group.
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Date Oct. 7 2010 23:05:51
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at_leo_87
Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A
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RE: i don't want no speeding ticket!... (in reply to mark indigo)
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quote:
it's a problem i can relate to.... maybe you could take Ricardo's idea of recording yourself, but record the group etc. and play it back to them so they can hear what they are doing... definitely I would get everyone to play/palm/dance to a metronome, problem is amplifying it enough another idea would be to suggest to the palmeros (how many, one, two, three?) that you get together to practise, then all play to the metronome, you can coach them to get better timing, also find out who is on and who is off let us know how you get on, you might find some good tips to share! when we play to a metronome, (i have it hooked up to a speaker system), they wait for me to start then they just follow my guitar with their distorted palmas. for bulerias, i leave the metronome clicking every three beats. the problem is the stuff in between, they skew or distort the compas but still hit every three beats. it throws me off, i have to ignore them and listen to the metronome. there already is one recording where i can clearly hear the palmas being ahead of the beat. the difficulty is trying to say something, again, without sounding arrogant or hurting feelings. i think i'll put the guitar down and really focus on just palmas.
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Date Oct. 7 2010 23:10:35
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mark indigo
Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
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RE: i don't want no speeding ticket!... (in reply to Ailsa)
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quote:
u can say many things without anyone needing to feel offended..its all in how you say it.. and sometimes, with some people, it doesn't matter what you say, or how you say it, they will get offended.... they are offended already quote:
i have a feeling i will go deaf soon. these palmeras are competitive and will try to outplay the compas track i know, it's not just the bad palmas that's the problem, it's often the volume of the bad palmas that's the problem.... quote:
the problem is that these folks go to all these workshops and classes and get taught really good stuff I know that one too, and what they so need is to master the really simple repetitive stuff, just keeping time etc., right? to able to hold basic compas at a rock solid steady tempo (ie. not flapping like a performing seal half out of time and speeding up), and to listen to what's going on and respond to it sensitively (ie. not drown it out with cannon shot palmas all the time).... oh god.... please!
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Date Oct. 8 2010 17:41:17
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at_leo_87
Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A
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RE: i don't want no speeding ticket!... (in reply to at_leo_87)
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i'm so glad to know im not the only one that has to deal with this! quote:
More than once I've asked someone doing palmas to stop because "I'm doing this section a bit libre". but then they would think i'm off. i have my own ego to protect too. quote:
I know that one too, and what they so need is to master the really simple repetitive stuff, just keeping time etc., right? to able to hold basic compas at a rock solid steady tempo (ie. not flapping like a performing seal half out of time and speeding up), and to listen to what's going on and respond to it sensitively (ie. not drown it out with cannon shot palmas all the time).... oh god.... please! exactly! tell me about it! everybody just wants to do the crazy, fast, loud stuff, all day long. i can't believe how off some of these people are when you take away the solo compas or the guitar, when they've got nothing to hide behind.
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Date Oct. 8 2010 17:59:55
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