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yohan

Posts: 306
Joined: Feb. 5 2007
 

Tauromagia book review 

Well I finally got it, the transcription of Tauromagia by claude worms.
First of all I have to say Tauromagia is one of my favorite cd's of all time!
The book contains the transcriptions of all 8 songs on the album.
It looks and feels good, the binding of the book is not as weak as most flamencobooks,(most of them fall apart within a week.) I also like the typeface and layout, it looks clean.

The music on tauromagia is very complex, also because there are a lot of little ghost notes, fast legato's,bindings, and other musical ornaments.
So transcribing must be very hard, but I think overall claude did a good job.
The transcriptions seems very accurate overall. Sometimes the rhytmic notes are a little weird transcribed, but fingering and right hand symbols seem very accurate.

But there are some flaws:
first of all, there are no second guitars. Only the main guitar that manolo plays has been transcribed, and in some songs like meastranza the second guitar is also important. There are also no chord symbols or anything added to the scores, so you have to transcribe that yourself.

Claude also didn't transcribe the parts with cante/singing. So for example, the tango, when the singer start singing the score takes a break. There are no chord symbols or pattern given for that part. Thats imo very dumb.

I also spots some few errors and in the first song(nacencia) and others all the golpes are missing.
Overall its a good book but claude should have pay more attention to the details.

Hope you liked the review, and feel free to ask some questions.

Btw I have one question:
Why don't artist transcribe there music themselves???
(It would be easier and you would know that the music is transcribed right.)

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 16 2010 4:49:09
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Tauromagia book review (in reply to yohan

quote:

Why don't artist transcribe there music themselves???


Possible reasons:

1. Can't read music.

2. Can't be bothered.





cheers,

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 16 2010 4:55:36
 
Estevan

Posts: 1912
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: Tauromagia book review (in reply to Ron.M

quote:

1. Can't read music.

2. Can't be bothered.

Exactly right.

Although somehow I got the impression that maybe Manolo, as a rare exception to the norm, reads music. Maybe it's just his mad professor image. Does anyone know?


_____________________________

Me da igual. La música es música.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 16 2010 5:02:34
 
Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005
 

RE: Tauromagia book review (in reply to yohan

Decades ago Manolo Sanlucar talked about bringing out (by himself) a technical exercise book with hundreds of his exercises. It never came out.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 16 2010 5:36:16
 
NeZ

 

Posts: 96
Joined: Feb. 14 2007
 

RE: Tauromagia book review (in reply to yohan

I just got this album in the mail the other day. I purchased it based on all the glowing reviews in the previous thread about this transcription book. One thing I noticed though is the CD packet doesn't contain information about which Palo each song is.

I'm still relatively new to Flamenco and often can't discern the difference by listening alone, usually with the exception of forms I've been learning.

Can one of you post what the corresponding Palos are for the songs on this record?

The track list is as follows:

Nacencia
Maletilla
Oracion
Maestranza
....De Capote
Tercio de Vara
Banderillas
....De Muleta
Puerta del Principe

Thanks!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 16 2010 6:44:01
 
yohan

Posts: 306
Joined: Feb. 5 2007
 

RE: Tauromagia book review (in reply to NeZ

Nacencia (no palo, according to the book)
Maletilla= tango ( in B flamenco I thought)
Oracion = Rondena
meastranza = jaleo (best i ever heard! )
De capote = solea por buleria
tercio de vara = buleria ( but its in rondena tuning)
banderillas ( fandangos)
de muleta (buleria, slow one)
puerta del principe (alegria)

I think I'll start learning the alegria

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 16 2010 7:33:11
 
yohan

Posts: 306
Joined: Feb. 5 2007
 

RE: Tauromagia book review (in reply to yohan

quote:


Possible reasons:

1. Can't read music.

2. Can't be bothered.



But don't they keep scores/tabs for themselves from there previous albums and music???
Reading music isnt that hard and very important when working together with other musicians, like modern guitarist do these days, so I think most of them can read music,or not??

Also guitarist can make a lot of money by books, so it would be easier if they do it themselves, right?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 16 2010 7:37:49
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: Tauromagia book review (in reply to yohan

quote:

ORIGINAL: yohan
Also guitarist can make a lot of money by books, so it would be easier if they do it themselves, right?


If one could make a lot of money with that, im sure more guitarrists would bring out a book
and no i dont think its easier if they do it, coz notation (TAB or else) is a world of its own. You have to be experienced in learning from notation. You have to know about how to convert the rhythm from your head into notes for example.

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Фламенко
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 16 2010 8:02:22
 
Estevan

Posts: 1912
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: Tauromagia book review (in reply to yohan

quote:

Reading music isnt that hard and very important when working together with other musicians, like modern guitarist do these days, so I think most of them can read music,or not??

Not!
As for working with other musicians, flamenco players who learned the traditional way (in the family) don't need to read when they play together because they already understand each other. If there are musicians from 'outside', like bass players etc., they usually have some other background such as jazz where they might have learned to read, but they'll have to write their own parts down (if they need to) or perhaps for a recording session there will be one of those musically literate arranger-producers who would do it for them. (But nobody would write down the guitar parts).

_____________________________

Me da igual. La música es música.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 16 2010 8:18:37
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13944
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Tauromagia book review (in reply to yohan

Flamencos usually don't read or write music, sometimes out of principle. They feel music needs to breath and evolve "in the air", not on paper. There are some rare exceptions.

Manolo wants to be considered a musician more than just a flamenco, hence his arrangements for orchestra etc. Yet he is still too lazy to make a transcription as we guitarists think of it. I transcribed 90% of tauromagia 14 years ago for a school project. mutual friend contacted manolo for permission to publish. He was not happy to discover he did not own the rights to it, nor did his publisher want to give me permission. (Anti american vibe I was getting). It was copyright already because apparently manolo himself "sketched out" the album somehow, but again not with accurate guitar details or anything.

You may be surprised to know that even today, there are many gitanos and flamencos from lower class background that cannot even read or write in Spanish, much less music or tabs. I worked with a such a singer from Madrid last year for example. Look at a lot of the crazy grammar of spaniards in comments on youtube also for example.

Ricardo

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 16 2010 8:57:56
 
Mike_Kinny

 

Posts: 689
Joined: Feb. 12 2009
 

RE: Tauromagia book review (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

sometimes out of principle. They feel music needs to breath and evolve "in the air", not on paper.


I thought that was only their lame excuse. :)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 16 2010 9:08:28
 
Arash

Posts: 4494
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Tauromagia book review (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

Flamencos usually don't read or write music, sometimes out of principle. They feel music needs to breath and evolve "in the air", not on paper.


I kinda like this attitude. Ole
(even though it would be cool to have all the tabs from every and each cool guitarist )

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 16 2010 9:20:48
 
yohan

Posts: 306
Joined: Feb. 5 2007
 

RE: Tauromagia book review (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Flamencos usually don't read or write music, sometimes out of principle. They feel music needs to breath and evolve "in the air", not on paper. There are some rare exceptions.

Manolo wants to be considered a musician more than just a flamenco, hence his arrangements for orchestra etc. Yet he is still too lazy to make a transcription as we guitarists think of it. I transcribed 90% of tauromagia 14 years ago for a school project. mutual friend contacted manolo for permission to publish. He was not happy to discover he did not own the rights to it, nor did his publisher want to give me permission. (Anti american vibe I was getting). It was copyright already because apparently manolo himself "sketched out" the album somehow, but again not with accurate guitar details or anything.

You may be surprised to know that even today, there are many gitanos and flamencos from lower class background that cannot even read or write in Spanish, much less music or tabs. I worked with a such a singer from Madrid last year for example. Look at a lot of the crazy grammar of spaniards in comments on youtube also for example.

Ricardo

thanks for the reply
I guess im wrong then, I thought "not reading music" is very outdated these days(if thats the right word) which is probably not! I've never been to spain unfortunaly

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 16 2010 11:01:41
 
Kate

Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: Living in Granada, Andalucía

RE: Tauromagia book review (in reply to Ricardo

quote:


You may be surprised to know that even today, there are many gitanos and flamencos from lower class background that cannot even read or write in Spanish, much less music or tabs.


I regularly shop at a supermarket near the Poligono, the run down Gypsy neighbourhood and am constantly asked by Gitanos about the products and labels. Can you imagine shopping without being able to read ! Many of my flamenco friends will get me to read reviews or contracts for them, a common excuse being that they dont have their glasses. One of the reasons for Gypsy illiteracy is that they are simply not encouraged, schools have very low expectations of Gypsy children and illiterate parents are no help. I was visiting a friend's house in the Poligono and a 17 year old Gypsy girl proudly showed me her homework, it was colouring in !!! Previously I had been trying, successfully, to encourage her to stay on at school, when I saw that I gave up. The poor Gypsy population is still seriously disadvantaged.

_____________________________

Emilio Maya Temple
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000CA6OBC
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/emiliomaya
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 17 2010 1:52:31
 
Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: Tauromagia book review (in reply to Mike_Kinny

quote:

sometimes out of principle. They feel music needs to breath and evolve "in the air", not on paper.

Not just flamencos. Thom Yorke of Radiohead is the only one of the band that has chosen not to read music. The others in the band are all now serious musicians.

_____________________________

http://www.flamencojourney.com
http://www.myspace.com/flamencojourney
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 17 2010 2:19:15
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Tauromagia book review (in reply to Kate

quote:

I was visiting a friend's house in the Poligono and a 17 year old Gypsy girl proudly showed me her homework, it was colouring in !!! Previously I had been trying, successfully, to encourage her to stay on at school, when I saw that I gave up. The poor Gypsy population is still seriously disadvantaged.


That is incredibly sad, Kate.

Aren't any local politicians or teachers or anybody interested in trying to set up small "self-help" groups or anything?

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 17 2010 3:10:12
 
Kate

Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: Living in Granada, Andalucía

RE: Tauromagia book review (in reply to Ron.M

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M

Aren't any local politicians or teachers or anybody interested in trying to set up small "self-help" groups or anything?


The only time you will find a politician in the Poligono is election time. I was involved with an association formed to help the Gitanos help themselves, by doing up their own apartments, they also had other activities, all run of course by non Gitanos. Once in a meeting I was explaining about expenses and was flatly told by the organiser not to bother as the Gitanos did not understand money. I was furious, the one thing poor people really do understand is money !!! It was so patronising. The community had a right to know how much money was being spent and what on. After that I gave up with publically funded associations, jobs for the boys was what it looked like.

_____________________________

Emilio Maya Temple
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000CA6OBC
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/emiliomaya
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 17 2010 7:16:25
 
lohan

Posts: 69
Joined: Nov. 29 2020
 

RE: Tauromagia book review (in reply to yohan

Hi

Tercio De Vara is a phase of a bullfight?

Tercio De Vara as a piece is a pure buleria? or is it a Minera plus blueria? or is it Minera por Buleria? What it is? and what its relation to Minera?

Thanks
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 27 2023 21:02:14
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13944
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Tauromagia book review (in reply to lohan

quote:

ORIGINAL: lohan

Hi

Tercio De Vara is a phase of a bullfight?

Tercio De Vara as a piece is a pure buleria? or is it a Minera plus blueria? or is it Minera por Buleria? What it is? and what its relation to Minera?

Thanks


Hi, yes. Each song is a piece of the bullfight story, and that buleria is during the main event. The death is the next to last piece, and the end is the fiesta, or after party (I consider it also buleria de Cadiz, part of the Alegrias family). Tercio de Vara (maybe Morante can explain exactly what happens during this portion) is in Rondeña tuning, capo 2, so yes a sort of hybrid guitar wise. Montoya used the tuning to accompany a singer por Taranta before recording his iconic guitar solo. The tuning is likely inspired by the old Vihuela tuning where the G string is dropped to F#. The low D supports an open D chord, and the key center is actually C# Phrygian. I suspect that Montoya calls it Rondeña because he already had titled his Taranta using toque levante (F#) and Minera (G#)…and some singers (Manuel Torre, Carmen Amaya, etc.) referred to TARANTO (the melody) as “Rondeña” back then. The word “Taranto” is not applied until recently, and the Cantes Mineros book I have attributes the melody to Pedro el Morato (originally called Minera, yet they use a variant in the book called Taranto as well). There is also a “Rondeña” that is sung much like Verdiales/Malagueñas which can be a huge point of confusion for people.

Back to Tercio, Manolo’s brother plays in the key of Granaina capo 4, however, his guitar is buried quite low in the mix. The secret language of compas is used at the very end of the piece where he marks the Soleá phrase very rapidly (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10, un, do)…can’t tell you how many times I play that track for flamenco colleagues and they simply don’t stop clapping on 10. To me it is hilarious (because it is an obvious change of feeling and cierre) and we have to rewind and try again until they get it.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 28 2023 16:47:09
 
lohan

Posts: 69
Joined: Nov. 29 2020
 

RE: Tauromagia book review (in reply to Ricardo

Dear Ricardo,
Hi
Thank You so much for this lesson.

based on your explanation, i can conclude that Tercio de Vara is a Buleria on Rondeña tuning with G string which is dropped to F#.

But I am still very confused because i am thinking why some sources called Tercio de Vara as a Minera-Buleria? Does the reason is just this Buleria is tuning on Rondeña and the rest of your explanation regarding Rondeña and Taranto and Minera?

Do You mean, They call Tercio de Vara as a Minera-Buleria just because of its Rondeña tuning?

its introduction is pure Minera? and its rhythmic part is Minera Por Buleria?


Gerardo Nuñez Buleria Trafalgar has also the same tuning like Rondeña, but why Trafalgar is not as confusing as Tercio de Vara?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 28 2023 17:51:25
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13944
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Tauromagia book review (in reply to lohan

quote:

ORIGINAL: lohan

Dear Ricardo,
Hi
Thank You so much for this lesson.

based on your explanation, i can conclude that Tercio de Vara is a Buleria on Rondeña tuning with G string which is dropped to F#.

But I am still very confused because i am thinking why some sources called Tercio de Vara as a Minera-Buleria? Does the reason is just this Buleria is tuning on Rondeña and the rest of your explanation regarding Rondeña and Taranto and Minera?

Do You mean, They call Tercio de Vara as a Minera-Buleria just because of its Rondeña tuning?

its introduction is pure Minera? and its rhythmic part is Minera Por Buleria?


Gerardo Nuñez Buleria Trafalgar has also the same tuning like Rondeña, but why Trafalgar is not as confusing as Tercio de Vara?


Lots to unpack there. First, Minera Buleria is simply INCORRECT, however, it is also quite understandable/forgivable whoever is saying that. Rondeña buleria is correct. Again, Minera the sung melodies have been attributed (Minera de Pedro el Morato) the title on vinyl to “Rondeña”, causing much confusion. Today, we in the working community consider the melody as the basic “Taranto” with or without rhythmic accompaniment (the dance is called Taranto even if Cartageneras or any cante minero is sung in rhythm). To add confusion, some years back Tomatito recorded both a Minera and Rondeña on the album “Guitarra Gitana” and the producers accidentally swapped the tracks. Even he called the piece “Montoya” as homage to Rondeña creator, and his Minera we students knew from his Encuentro video already. So the mistake was problematic because I have seen it echoed by aficionados ever since (many people have the sound of Rondeña guitar playing in their heads yet titled as Minera, and vice versa). So in some way, I forgive this mistake, but YES they are calling it “Minera Buleria” because of the tuning of the guitar.

Again, the free intro of Tercio de Vara is much in line with the track Oracion on the same album, ie, Rondeña. Nuñez has a track on Jucal called “Hacia Mi’ which is also Rondeña that turns into rhythmic accompaniment for Cigala, and ends por Buleria. This would be the same type of thing as Tercio de Vara, exactly. The track “Trafalgar” uses a low D string, but the third is normal G. So not the same tuning…but more importantly the KEY center, as I said for Rondeña is C# NOT D. Trafalgar sounds quite different because it is in D phrygian, D minor, and D major at various times (parallel key changes keeping D as tonic). On the same album you can quickly compare the two tracks.

Here is the Minera de Pedro el Morato (his personal take on the melody that is), accompanied in key of Taranta (F#), but called Rondeña (today known as Taranto…see even the YouTube comments):



_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 28 2023 18:42:36
 
lohan

Posts: 69
Joined: Nov. 29 2020
 

RE: Tauromagia book review (in reply to Ricardo

Dear Ricardo,
Thank You so much for these lessons..
Excuse me please because I took your time.
I got my answer and everything is clear for me now.
Thanks
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 28 2023 19:26:24
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3321
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Tauromagia book review (in reply to lohan

The vara is the long spear wielded by a picador. The tercio de varas is the first of the three "acts" of the corrida. The bull charges the picadores, who are mounted on horseback. The picadores use their varas on the bull's neck muscles, weakening them so the bull is less able to raise his head violently to impale an enemy on his horns.

The matador distracts the bull away from the picador using the large cape he wears over his shoulder, wrapped around one arm, when entering the ring in the initial processsion, where all the human participants form up and salute the presidente in his box beside the puerta grande.

The matador demonstrates his skill with the large cape by executing a number of passes with the bull each time he leads him away from the horse. This sequence of passes is called a quite, referring to leading the bull away from the horse.

In days gone by the tercio de varas was far bloodier than in recent times. Nowadays the horses are provided with effective armor against the bull's horns. In the old days, the horses were routinely mortally injured by the bull.

In the few corridas I have attended in recent years, the bulls have been exposed to the varas only a couple of times. In the old days they were repeatedly stabbed by the picadores. As a result, the modern tercio de varas is really more about the passes the matador showily executes with the large cape.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 29 2023 3:07:51
 
lohan

Posts: 69
Joined: Nov. 29 2020
 

RE: Tauromagia book review (in reply to Richard Jernigan

Hi Richard Jernigan
Thank You so much for your nice and complete reply and your time.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 29 2023 11:06:49
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