RE: Guitar Longevity

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Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Guitar Longevity (in reply to cathulu)

Oh No! Cathulu...

You have just volunteered yourself to be thrown into the pit of "Opening-up Deniers"!

Actually, when I get a new computer application, I find it pretty cumbersome and clunky to use at first, but over the weeks and months the app DOES appear to "open up" and become really slick to use and very productive.

If I leave it for a few months and then come back to it again....it's pretty slow and stiff at first again, but after a few days comes back to it's top form!

Strange!

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2010 11:38:20

estebanana

Posts: 9354
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Guitar Longevity (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

Actually, when I get a new computer application, I find it pretty cumbersome and clunky to use at first, but over the weeks and months the app DOES appear to "open up" and become really slick to use and very productive.

Yeah sure, but does it stay in tune?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2010 14:33:03

estebanana

Posts: 9354
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Guitar Longevity (in reply to cathulu)

quote:

If a guitar is made with properly cured wood, then there will be more sound variation depending on seasonal humidity changes than any anectodal changes from the guitar opening up.

Even if wood is "seasoned" it continues to change. Just because wood reaches a point of stability which enables you to build a guitar with it does not mean the wood ceases to change.

A hockey stick, a shovel, baseball glove, basketball net, fishing rod, pair of shoes, gloves, coat, skateboard wheels and guitars all "play in" with proper use. A guitar playing in is not much different than the fact that the valves and cylinders on a car seat themselves as the car breaks in. Guitars are just like every other object which get mechanical use, they break in.

Wood is a malleable substance. When you take a sheet of wood 2.5 mm thick and subject it to mechanical forces like tension and release, prolonged stationary tension and the fact that wood continues to change density as it ages, the wood will continually adjust to mechanical forces created by natural drying and musicians' touch.

It's just like the great guitarist Nigel Tufnel used to say: "Hear that? It's still going, we could go to lunch and come back and it would still be ringing."

You just have to listen deeper, like Nigel.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2010 14:40:25

Estevan

Posts: 1936
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: Guitar Longevity (in reply to XXX)

quote:

quote:
[a_arnold]
"Flamenco is so emotionally direct that a trained classical musician would require many years of highly disciplined formal study to fail to understand it."

[Deniz]
thats genius, i love it!

It shows an open mind, a generous spirit, and a complete absence of prejudice.

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Me da igual. La música es música.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2010 17:30:27

Estevan

Posts: 1936
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: Guitar Longevity (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

Wood is a malleable substance. When you take a sheet of wood 2.5 mm thick and subject it to mechanical forces like tension and release, prolonged stationary tension and the fact that wood continues to change density as it ages, the wood will continually adjust to mechanical forces created by natural drying and musicians' touch.

It's just like the great guitarist Nigel Tufnel used to say: "Hear that? It's still going, we could go to lunch and come back and it would still be ringing."

You just have to listen deeper, like Nigel.

I'm with Nige. (And estebanana).

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2010 17:33:34

HemeolaMan

Posts: 1514
Joined: Jul. 13 2007
From: Chicago

RE: Guitar Longevity (in reply to Ron.M)

I play guitar. It's my thing. Been doing it for 13 years. Classically trained musician at university. I play several guitars.

Fact: when I don't play one for a while it sounds tight, even though it is kept under the exact same conditions, humidity and temperature right next to the one i play more often.

When I do play it, it loosens up and the sound changes.

I think I have established my credentials as a musician and I am quite capable of discerning what is going on with my guitars, having 13 years of playing and 8 years of repair work to my credit.

Guitars change and open up when they are played. As do pianos, cellos, violins and basses and banjos and.....

wood has resins. resins dry. they link to make polymer chains. vibrations VIBRATE THINGS. if a crystaline or polymer structure is vibrated enough it begins to orient itself along that vibrational node. you could say, it gets used to being vibrated that way.

there is science. look it up.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2010 17:40:57

Estevan

Posts: 1936
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: Guitar Longevity (in reply to HemeolaMan)

quote:

I think I have established my credentials as a musician and I am quite capable of discerning what is going on with my guitars, having 13 years of playing and 8 years of repair work to my credit.

I think so.

quote:

Guitars change and open up when they are played. As do pianos, cellos, violins and basses and banjos and.....

Any musician knows that. Guitars and other instruments also change when they are played by different people. When someone else plays your guitar - especially someone who plays very differently - it will feel different for a little while after you get it back. Woodwind players say the same thing.

quote:

wood has resins. resins dry. they link to make polymer chains. vibrations VIBRATE THINGS. if a crystaline or polymer structure is vibrated enough it begins to orient itself along that vibrational node. you could say, it gets used to being vibrated that way.

there is science. look it up.

Right. There have been scientific studies showing that the vibrations caused by playing a violin change the cell structure of the wood. If it is not played for some time the structure gradually reverts to its previous condition, until it is played again. I've read the articles, they're out there somewhere.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2010 17:49:57

chapman_g

Posts: 227
Joined: Apr. 11 2007

RE: Guitar Longevity (in reply to Ron.M)

Okay apart from the opening up / breaking in discussion. In general are flamenco guitars expected to last and even possibly get better as is expected of Violins? Or is it different with guitars, and they go downhill in terms of longevity?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2010 19:14:16

estebanana

Posts: 9354
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Guitar Longevity (in reply to chapman_g)

quote:

Okay apart from the opening up / breaking in discussion. In general are flamenco guitars expected to last and even possibly get better as is expected of Violins? Or is it different with guitars, and they go downhill in terms of longevity?

That is a very good question because it has many parts and variables.

So far the violins are older and have proven to have staying power over two, three or four centuries. There are no modern guitars that old yet, but it's been said and done that rebuilding and keeping an old guitar in shape can allow that guitar to be played in concerts.

Torres' guitar La Leona is owned by a German or Austrian guitarist and he uses it in public from time to time. Seems to be a strong guitar. Time will tell if it continues.

Violins in general are long lived, and so far some guitars are too, relative to the age of a violin. I personally know of a 1920 Santos Hernandez that is still being played in cuadros by a Bay Area guitarist.

Some guitarists, for example Julian Bream, say they have played out certain guitars and get another one. So the question is what does played out mean? For one person the guitar might be dead and for someone else it might be wonderful. Unless it really is DEAD....

Good question, I'd like to hear others thoughts on that.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2010 21:20:34

estebanana

Posts: 9354
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Guitar Longevity (in reply to HemeolaMan)

quote:

wood has resins. resins dry. they link to make polymer chains. vibrations VIBRATE THINGS. if a crystaline or polymer structure is vibrated enough it begins to orient itself along that vibrational node. you could say, it gets used to being vibrated that way.

Aren't you quite the scientist. :)P

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2010 21:23:31

cathulu

Posts: 950
Joined: Dec. 15 2006
From: Vancouver, Canukistan

RE: Guitar Longevity (in reply to Ron.M)

Yes, I do put myself out there sometimes! I take one for the team all the time and I am not afraid to fall on my sword. I am maybe nuts...

PS very nice anecdote their Ron - funny that is my experience also!

Look at Hemeola Man, paraphrased "I put it on the shelf and it seem tight, then when I play it loosens up and the sound changes". Hello, that is an anectodal experience that relys on the mind's interpretation does it not? The mind is a pretty tricky beast. I don't trust mine all of the time so why should I trust yours LOL. No offense meant there.

I agree in the long term things might change, but that is going to take decades in my humble opinion.

Lets see someone post up some scientific facts - and not regarding 450 year old violins, I think I can see something that old changing a bit. Lets talk about within a couple of years. By the sound of things, the change can happen within a couple of hours!!!

If these studies are out there, well lets see them. Most of the science I have seen has been pretty poor, backyard experimenters with no careful controls to weed out other influences, no statistical analysis, that ultimately come away with nothing.

Prove me wrong, I don't mind. I can change my opinion when I learn the facts, I would be quite happy to!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2010 21:42:46

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Guitar Longevity (in reply to HemeolaMan)

quote:

I play guitar. It's my thing. Been doing it for 13 years. Classically trained musician at university. I play several guitars.

Fact: when I don't play one for a while it sounds tight, even though it is kept under the exact same conditions, humidity and temperature right next to the one i play more often.

When I do play it, it loosens up and the sound changes.

I think I have established my credentials as a musician and I am quite capable of discerning what is going on with my guitars, having 13 years of playing and 8 years of repair work to my credit.

Guitars change and open up when they are played. As do pianos, cellos, violins and basses and banjos and.....

wood has resins. resins dry. they link to make polymer chains. vibrations VIBRATE THINGS. if a crystaline or polymer structure is vibrated enough it begins to orient itself along that vibrational node. you could say, it gets used to being vibrated that way.

there is science. look it up.

I agree 100%

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2010 23:40:36

krichards

Posts: 597
Joined: Jan. 14 2007
From: York, England

RE: Guitar Longevity (in reply to HemeolaMan)

quote:

wood has resins. resins dry. they link to make polymer chains. vibrations VIBRATE THINGS. if a crystaline or polymer structure is vibrated enough it begins to orient itself along that vibrational node

Ok we can agree that the guitar undergoes change
1 Chemical change due to interaction with air and moisture etc

2 Physical change due to humidity temperature etc

3 Biological change due to fungi and other micro organisms etc and

4 the player practices and gets better

5 The player adapts to the nuances and peculiarities of the guitar

They all happen

But my point is that the human factors are far greater and this is most likely why we perceive an 'opening up' or improvement in the guitar.

Its us. We do most of it it, not the guitar.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2010 23:41:33

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Guitar Longevity (in reply to krichards)

quote:

Not really evidence Anders, just anecdotes
Evidence requires data collected from properly conducted experiments, with careful measurements. We don't have that, we just have opinions and individual experiences which are conflicting.
Its actually very difficult to think of a meaningful measurement we could make. The question is just very complex.
We'll never get the answer but we'll always have something to discuss on this issue.

What you write is one way of collecting data. But it doesnt work on a lot of things in world (if it works at all)
Its 100% scientifically correct to collect data asking people what they observe, and use that information to make a statement.
Guitars are basically music, and it would be scientifically impossible to prove that PdL played better in his concert in Valencia than he did 1 week earlyer in Barcelona. But if a lot people that heard the two concerts agree that he actually played beter in Valencia, then I personally would assume hat he had a better day in Valencia.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2010 23:46:12

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Guitar Longevity (in reply to HemeolaMan)

OK, accepted that wood under tension and regularly subjected to vibration and to other forces will possibly undergo changes at structural/molecular level over time.....

How come these changes are always POSITIVE?

Everyone always reports the guitar changing for the better.

No one ever reports the guitar sounding WORSE.

This seems a bit suspect in scientific terms surely?

Also to say things like the guitar moulds itself into your style of playing due to the vibrations because wood is a natural, organic material is pseudo science IMO and appeals intuitively to people who like the advertising for "natural" herbal and organic skin care and health products.
(Note: Curare and Hemlock are also "natural" products, but not too good for you despite being "natural"

)

The experiment I outlined a few posts ago would at least come one step further into proving this one way or another.

As I said, I'm sitting on the fence on this one. I simply don't know.

I am inclined to believe that it is so, or at least something inexplicable is happening, only because I respect the opinion of the guitar builders here who are working with guitars day in day out for years and years.

So you can't dismiss that.

However, it would still be nice to subject this to experimental test and I'm sure everyone would be interested in the results.

Everytime we understand what is really going on in a process, the more we have control over it....which surely must be of interest to the Luthiers?

BTW. I have heard that if you keep a Yamaha in a vintage Conde case, then over the months the guitar will get better and better as it will absorb the "vibes" from the Conde which was kept in there for years and are slowly being released from the case lining, exercising a change at molecular level on the Yamaha.
In a couple of years you won't know the guitar which will be enriched with pure sonorous timbric colours.

However, the opposite is also true...
NEVER store a quality guitar in a case which has previously housed a cheap guitar, or the good vibes will slowly be drawn out of the wood into the case lining to fill the negative energy gaps caused by the cheap guitar.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 9 2010 1:06:50

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Guitar Longevity (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M
The experiment I outlined a few posts ago would at least come one step further into proving this one way or another.

Well a few posts before that i described some guidelines how ANY guitarist can check themselves with easy methods. The more ear you got the less science you need. And popular poll would be very dumb in this matter btw. I also asked how much you play guitar, nobody answered. I dont mind people saying they do not experience this. If i would touch my guitar only once a week, i wouldnt expect anything. But it is suspect if people say it doesnt exist because they THINK that human factors are bigger. That is just a guess, as you dont know how any guitarist has developed. Please dont act like you know anything, you have checked nothing (by attending to "tests"), and when it comes to experience, in my view, you are "behind" (as musicians and players) to those who did experience such things.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 9 2010 1:47:46

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Guitar Longevity (in reply to XXX)

quote:

ANY guitarist can check themselves with easy methods. The more ear you got the less science you need. And popular poll would be very dumb in this matter

This is also known as "totalitarianism" where you are the best judge of the results of your own actions and ideas and require no further opinion by others.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 9 2010 2:05:20

kozz

Posts: 1766
Joined: Feb. 26 2009
From: Eindhoven NL

RE: Guitar Longevity (in reply to Ron.M)

This is a quite interesting discussion, but first a definition of "opening up" needs to clear, otherwhise you might discuss different subjects.

My feeling pushes me more to the camp of the a guitar will open up.
I like to think that the soundwaves are little bullits, attacking the wood and the polish.
The wood bombarded by these bullets may have extra little cavities in time to resonate.
Maybe also the polish gets tinner by vibrating, losening up particles.
I dont know if fp guitars open up more than laquered guitars.

Maybe scientifically, pictures could be taken from the varnish and it crystalline structure once applied and than taken every week/month, and see how it has changed.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 9 2010 5:42:55

KMMI77

Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under

RE: Guitar Longevity (in reply to Ron.M)

I remember going into the japanese pavilion at world expo 88 and seeing two robotic arms set up playing a nylon string classical guitar.

It would come in handy for this experiment.

Even if you recorded the sound over a period of time and the robot hit the strings with identical precision. And you controlled the environment, temp, humidity etc.. I would still be unsure about the difference being created by each set of strings

I purchased my conde in 2002 and to be honest i don't think it has changed drastically. Its construction is very solid though. I liked its sound then and i still like it today.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 9 2010 5:54:19

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Guitar Longevity (in reply to kozz)

quote:

but first a definition of "opening up" needs to clear, otherwhise you might discuss different subjects.

Kozz,

Without getting too scientific about it or discussing what is happening at structural level, I would understand "opening up" as "a guitar having a noticable improvement in sound as judged and agreed by a number of guitar players".

That's all....nothing fancy....

In fact I would be happy just to establish that such an improvement actually does happen over time with regular playing, without needing to know why.

I've got more of a curious mind just to be satisfied by someone telling me it does because they say so.....and then backing that up with a lot of anecdotes, molecular science and physics etc.

Kris...if the effect of "opening up" is only as noticable as the day to day variations caused by temperature, barometric pressure and humidity....then it's hardly even significant enough to consider as anything special IMO.
However, some anecdotal accounts even tell of guitars which sounded dull as planks becoming full of life and highly desirable.

Let's simply demonstrate it happening....or is that too unreasonable to ask?

Remember the high priests of the Catholic church told Galileo that there was no point of them looking through his telescope, since everybody KNEW the Sun and planets went around the Earth....

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 9 2010 6:09:51

kozz

Posts: 1766
Joined: Feb. 26 2009
From: Eindhoven NL

RE: Guitar Longevity (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

Kozz,
Without getting too scientific about it or discussing what is happening at structural level, I would understand "opening up" as "a guitar having a noticable improvement in sound as judged and agreed by a number of guitar players".
That's all....nothing fancy...

Thats one way Ron.
Infact that already been proven, by people mentioning it.
Now it is the why, not if.

The why, could be like everything what already has been mentioned, so it is only to find out what factors contribute in a signifact major way.

Its kinda getting the romance out of the equation.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 9 2010 7:58:16

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Guitar Longevity (in reply to kozz)

quote:

Infact that already been proven, by people mentioning it.

So have flying saucers, Kozz.

Also others feel dubious about it, or undecided.

It would seem sensible to demonstrate the effect first on video before going on to discuss why or how it happens.

There are plenty websites already discussing the methods of propulsion the Aliens use and how they communicate etc etc....

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 9 2010 8:09:48

edguerin

Posts: 1589
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: Guitar Longevity (in reply to Ron.M)

And Nessie's been spotted doing the Guajiras....

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 9 2010 9:33:55

Alonte

Posts: 214
Joined: Dec. 2 2008

RE: Guitar Longevity (in reply to minordjango)

Oh I love this subject matter. Being originally a violinist this is a very expensive issue. We are talking millions of dollars!

Perception is a big influence too. Ill watch this thread...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 9 2010 9:40:41

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Guitar Longevity (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M

quote:

ANY guitarist can check themselves with easy methods. The more ear you got the less science you need. And popular poll would be very dumb in this matter

This is also known as "totalitarianism" where you are the best judge of the results of your own actions and ideas and require no further opinion by others.

IN THIS MATTER, everybody can have different understandings of "open up", and, whats worse, they may have different perception. For one guy the brightness of a guitar is good, for another its too few. This is the reason a poll would be nonsense.

quote:

Estevan: It shows an open mind, a generous spirit, and a complete absence of prejudice.

Yes the joke plays with the prejudice. But the fun part is not only that, it contradicts the expectation at the end.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 9 2010 12:48:42

cathulu

Posts: 950
Joined: Dec. 15 2006
From: Vancouver, Canukistan

RE: Guitar Longevity (in reply to XXX)

So there appears to be really nothing but words and anecdotes.

If that is all there is, then the whole idea of "opening-up" should be tossed out the window until there are more facts. It does not meet the test of logic and our common sense. Ron has given some great examples of that!

Now I know our common sense is sometime wrong, like at the quantum level. Or sometimes there are perverse unintended consequences to the way we think things should be when we make some policy or incentive shift - but those things are usually regarding the way humans perceive risk and rewards. Otherwise our common sense should be pretty unfailing.

The fact that all of our common sense points in different directions says a lot right there.

I think this concept of "opening-up" should be parked until something more definitive shows up to get all of our common sense arrows pointing in the same direction.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 9 2010 19:13:51

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Guitar Longevity (in reply to XXX)

quote:

IN THIS MATTER, everybody can have different understandings of "open up", and, whats worse, they may have different perception.

Well then Deniz, it would appear to me that the whole effect is sort of "Alice In Wonderland" ....

"When I use a word it means just what I choose it to mean". (Humpty Dumpty)

So in effect, a guitar could "open up" without you noticing it at all!

Or you may notice it, but no one else does...

Seems a bit too airy-fairy to me for anyone to be even concerned with in that case surely?

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 10 2010 1:45:31

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Guitar Longevity (in reply to cathulu)

Yes, i am a masochist.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cathulu
It does not meet the test of logic and our common sense. Ron has given some great examples of that!

Test of logic??? Id love to see just one.

To RON:
I said they MAY have different perception, not they will. Not everybody has the same quality of perception. Hence, say if someone doesnt notice a difference between "before" and "after", it may be because (i) he doesnt see it (ii) there is none or too few FOR HIM TO NOTICE. Using public poll would maximize the insecurities which would exist in ANY kind of poll that requires more than one participant (even among experts). On the other hand, nobody will say there is a difference, when he doesnt notice it.

I mean, you have to watch your statement. In previous posts you said there are many variables (without giving reason how strong they interfere the judgment of a player btw), and questioned the ears of a musician, and now you want to make a popular poll

I asked you why, if there are so many variables, you picked a guitar for much money, without even testing it before buying. Your theory of variables that mystically get in the way of perception is simply lacking and just assumption.
Following things are fact:

- A player is the best judge on the sound of a guitar, not some bystanders.
- The more time and dedication a player puts in his guitar and perfecting his/its sound and sensibilizing for it, the better a judge he will be.
- The guitar is subject to conditions that change its sound, that is true without any doubt, since the player, no matter how well he plays, will not be able to change the sound of a guitar. It can be tested, i repeat, by playing something that requires no technical ability at all.

The question is not whether guitars open or not, it is more the question how strong environmental variables are (including the player who makes a top vibrate through his playing) and how much the wood is responsible for that, i.e. what would happen if the guitar had not been played at all and all other variables (except the wood) were constant.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 10 2010 5:29:51

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Guitar Longevity (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M
"When I use a word it means just what I choose it to mean". (Humpty Dumpty)

The meaning of a word lies ALWAYS in the thought of the guy who is expressing it. You can see this humorous statements, where words are deliberately used against its common meaning.
Keep it coming, Ron!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 10 2010 5:36:16

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Guitar Longevity (in reply to XXX)

Well Deniz, I would agree with a lot of your conclusions...especially the player being the best judge etc.

For me personally, one little bit of improvement in technique vastly outweighs any guitar "tone"...but that's just me!

A lot off fuss is made here about great guitars and stuff and quite frankly, I've tried great guitars, including some of the professionals' concert guitars and to be truthful, I was disappointed to find that I just sound exactly the same on their guitars as I do on my own.

Maybe when you get to THEIR level, you can start splitting hairs.

Their guitars certainly felt very comfortable to play as they were well worn in and they had played around with the string tension and saddle height over the years to get the feel just right.

But apart from that there was nothing magical about them tone-wise or anything that made ME sound any better.

I would be very happy with any guitar from any maker on this Forum.

The most important thing about a Flamenco guitar for a student IMO is that it should FEEL right with a proper Flamenco string height and action.

The reason I chose Anders is because I knew he was a genuine and sincere builder and understood Flamenco guitars and he was also offering his guitars at a very reasonable price and I wasn't in a hurry, so didn't mind waiting.
Also he was located in the EU...so no import duty.

I also feel happy about all the money going directly to the builder, rather than a shop taking it's (justified) cut for a "name" label which they have in stock.

What I received was a properly built Flamenco guitar which sounded fine.

What more could you want?

If you gave the guitar to Tomatito or somebody it would sound amazing...so I have nothing to worry about except my own input.
In fact when I showed it to a professional, shortly after I got it he asked me if I was interested in selling it.

No matter if you have the most expensive Reyes in the world, if you can't keep compás, or have a lousy thumb technique, or sloppy picado or rasgueado, or no aire....it will still sound pretty crappy regardless...

I was happy with the guitar when I got it and I'm still happy with it now.

I was also happy with an inexpensive Bernal blanca I bought from Jim Opfer and I am still happy with it as well.

There is nothing much I can criticize with the guitars, but PLENTY I can criticize about my own shortcomings.

If I could play better it would vastly overwhelm any "opening up" effects by an order of magnitude.

So that's how I see it.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 10 2010 8:15:54