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RE: Classicals Flamencos and Negras
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Guest
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 RE: Classicals Flamencos and Negras (in reply to Jim Opfer)
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Keith Vizcarra, of Santa Fe, makes flamenco guitars that are quite pricy $7000, and his waiting list is 4 years! So he must be doing something right. Ottmar Liebert plays his guitars, although Keith concedes that Ottmar doesn't really want "traditional" flamenco guitars. I played one and it was by far the best guitar I have ever touched! It had the feel, it was like butter, so smooth and easy, powerful and the tone, to me, was like the raspy voice of someone born to sing cante jondo!
I have always assumed the flamenco tone on the gutiar was something you just had to kind of figure out, that it was really the attack of the fingers on the strings, but a good classical player told me...no it's the guitar, there are guitars that just sound flamenco that's how they are made. I wonder if this is true. if so....I need a new guitar!
And do you have to spend a lot of $ to get a guitar that sounds flamenco? It hardly seems logical, as I was under the impression that the "flamenco sound" was a result of the cheap materials they had to use 'back in the day.'
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Date Nov. 27 2004 15:31:30
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Guest
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RE: Classicals Flamencos and Negras (in reply to Guest)
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in Jerez, most young players have Valerianos and often "upgrade" to Conde. In Cadiz, where flamenco is at a low ebb, the young hotshots have all bought Condes. Roman Vicenti bought a Pedro de Miguel and his young brother Raul found a good Eladio Fernandez, which I had for a few months.
Sean
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Date Nov. 28 2004 1:01:50
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PacoPaella
Posts: 163
Joined: Nov. 7 2004
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RE: Classicals Flamencos and Negras (in reply to Jim Opfer)
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Exactly what guitar DOES Vicente play? I have read that the uses this american DeVoe guitar all over this forum, but now ran into this article:
quote:
Vicente Amigo
Vicente Amigo has a very special relationship with his Manuel Reyes guitar (Calle Armas, 4, E-140 Córdoba, 957, Spain). "I am very comfortable with her," he says. "I have been with her for years. Once I left her on the sofa, the phone rang and I picked it up and then sat on her and broke her. I took her to be repaired like one would take a sick child to the hospital. I got this guitar in C—rdoba. It is a fantastic guitar for flamenco. These guitars have a wonderful range of sound. And they are slender. It's not a big fat guitar; it's very sharp-sounding with a very quick response. It's made of cypress, which is the best wood. There are other flamenco guitars made of palo santo [the Spanish term for Indian rosewood, translated literally as "blessed wood"], but I like cypress much better. The ones that are made of palo santo are 'flamenca negras,' and the ones made of cypress are 'flamenca blancas.' I have an American flamenca negra guitar as well, made by Lester Devoe (Devoe Guitars, 680 Camino Roble, Nipomo, CA 93444; (805) 931-0313; ; www.maui.net/~rtadki/devoe.html), but I don't play it much because I am so used to the other one. Lester Devoe makes lots of palo santo guitars."
Amigo strings his guitars with D'Addario strings. "They give me the best tension and the best control," he says. "I have tried other strings, but these are the best. For me, they are fantastic."
—Bill Milkowski
(taken from http://www.acguitar.com/issues/ag116/gear116.html)
I know that the great artists get free instruments from all luthiers just so they can say "Xyz owns one of my guitars" but thats somewhat different from saying that this artist "plays" a certain guitar, because that would suggest its his "first" instrument...hm seems i went slightly off topic, sorry 
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Date Nov. 29 2004 7:27:59
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Patrick
Posts: 1189
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Portland, Oregon
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RE: Classicals Flamencos and Negras (in reply to Jim Opfer)
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quote:
The guy in Jose Ramirez's shop told me that a Flamenco Negra is just a Classical Guitar "Flamencada" (as he put it), that is set up for a lower action and a tap plate fitted.
Ron,
The reason he said that, in my opinion, is Ramirez doesn't build a true negra. I had a 1983 Ramirez 1A that was built as a negra. Forum member Eddie Lastra had Juan Serrano custom order it for him. It played and sounded very similar to a 1A classical, but had a lower, flamenco action.
Now, let's take my Jeff Sigurdson negra. If you play it hard, it will blow you away how much of a blanca quality it has. But if you back off, it has those nice, negra (classical qualities). My point is, it just isn't as simple as some would have you believe. Jeff has proven to me that good builders can go a long way in directing the outcome.
Pat
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Date Nov. 29 2004 18:12:24
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Patrick
Posts: 1189
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Portland, Oregon
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RE: Classicals Flamencos and Negras (in reply to Jim Opfer)
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quote:
Some people deny this effect. Maybe the negra or the blanca woods have nothing to do with it, but this is certainly the experience of many people. Whether or not it's the woods or not, hardly matters, if the eventually effect is the same. And it doesn't matter if the luthier CAN make it sound different, either, if they don't. I'm very comfortable adding my experience in this arena to yours.
Mike,
I agree. In my opinion, it just ain't so. Blanca's are blanca's and negra's are negra's. I have played a ton of negra's and I have never (I repeat, never) played a negra that sounded like a blanca. My Sigurdson is the closest, but when you get all done, it's still a negra! In fact, most negra's I have played were much closer (if not identical) to classical’s. Builders can only go so far in bringing out the blanca qualities in a negra. When you slap that dark wood on, things can change in a big way.
I think DeVoe has built such a world-renowned reputation, because he is one on the few builders that have been able to build blanca qualities into a negra. And because of that, people have beat a path to his doorstep.
So when someone says "the back and sides don't have an affect on the tone", I say hogwash! Prove it to me!
Pat
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Date Nov. 29 2004 18:36:40
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Patrick
Posts: 1189
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Portland, Oregon
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RE: Classicals Flamencos and Negras (in reply to Jim Opfer)
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quote:
That would be awesome! I'd be going crazy if I had a new Sigurdson and a new Green. I'd be locked away playing for days. Do you find yourself playing one more than the other? The Sigurdson is a negra though right? Is the Tezanos getting much playing these days?
Tom,
Actually that's what I did for four days during last weeks holiday. You know it's a tough thing to deal with, but someone has to do it!
I've been playing the Green everyday sense I got it. To say the least, "its a canon". The old saying "There is no such thing as a flamenco or classical guitar, there are only good and bad guitars" really applies in this case. It's definitely not the dry, short-sustain, Conde. A good classical guitarist could do wonders with it, but it’s still pure blood flamenco. It has so much power that I found it sounds better if you just back off and let it play itself.
The Sigurdson negra is like night and day from the Green blanca. If I could only have one guitar, I think it might be the Sigurdson. Not that it’s a canon like the Green, more that it’s so versatile. If you back off, it’s a really cool negra sound, but when you lay into it, it has a nice blanca edge. Jeff has got the low-flamenco setup down cold. It is by far the easiest to play guitar I have owned. It’s just fun to play.
The Tezanos hasn’t been played much lately due to the new arrivals, but it’s not forgotten.
Pat
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Date Nov. 30 2004 18:20:53
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Patrick
Posts: 1189
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Portland, Oregon
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RE: Classicals Flamencos and Negras (in reply to Jim Opfer)
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Jim,
Yes, the guitar that he has played for years was the same as the one that Eddie and I had, which was the hybrid classical. Mine sounded almost identical to his.
Now the question is, does he still play the same guitar? In more recent pictures, he's not playing it. Also his more recent recordings don't sound like it, but don't know for sure.
One other interesting point is how close my Tezanos-Perez negra sounds like my old Ramirez. As you may be aware, both Tezanos (and his father) and Perez worked in the Ramirez shop for many years. What is interesting, is the body style and bracing pattern are very different from the Ramirez 1A as well as being Spruce top, versus cedar. But, the tone is very, very much the Ramirez 1a,only bolder. It shows that the apple doesn’t fall to far from the tree.
Jim, BTW, the Ramirez 1a had a double side, versus double back. They were actually lined with a second set of sides.
Pat
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Date Nov. 30 2004 19:33:46
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Guest
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RE: Classicals Flamencos and Negras (in reply to Jim Opfer)
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If you want to hear a good selection of mp3 samples of classical and flamenco guitars by Spanish makers, here is a great link.
MP3 Gallery
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Date Dec. 25 2004 21:09:04
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Guest
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RE: Classicals Flamencos and Negras (in reply to Francisco)
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Hola
In my less than humble opinion, the maker of the finest flamenco guitars in Spain is José Romero. He is easily on the same level as De Voe and Reyes and will make my next blanca.
Sean
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Date Aug. 21 2005 19:17:30
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Guest
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RE: Classicals Flamencos and Negras (in reply to Ron.M)
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Hola
For years, Quique has played a Gerundino. In the photo he looks very young????
Sean
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Aug. 21 2005 21:10:51
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