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Classicals Flamencos and Negras
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Jim Opfer
Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.
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 Classicals Flamencos and Negras
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Just some observations.
Classical guitars are crafted to produce big and wonderful sounds, very musical like a grand piano, beautiful and sort of perfect. Too perfect for my ear.
Flamencos differ. Good ones are made to have a voice with almost human quality. Throaty, rough, earthy, gritty and they can be played to sing with emotion.
Negras are by construction, somewhere in the middle.
I can tell you that a great blanca will expose and reveal all flaws in your technique and rhythem, there is no cover, no fluffing, everything is up front and exposed. A good negra on the other hand, has the voice but also gives cover to the player with a thicker sound and sustain to iron out lapses in technique.
I'm intrigued by cedar top blancas, volume, big sound, yet with brilliance from the cypress back and sides. Makes me think this might be a very seductive combination.
Any thoughts?
Jim.
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Date Nov. 23 2004 18:39:05
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Guest
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RE: Classicals Flamencos and Negras (in reply to Jim Opfer)
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Jim
These generalisations are just generalisations. The quality of the wood and the skill of the guitarrero have more to do with the sound.
I have 2 great guitars: one is cypress and spruce, the other is Brazilian rosewood and cedar. I defy anyone to tell me which is which if I were playing them behind a curtain.
Suerte
Sean
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Date Nov. 23 2004 20:52:36
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Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
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RE: Classicals Flamencos and Negras (in reply to Jim Opfer)
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My experience is the same...in fact my only guitar is a Vicente Carillo blanca (same as the PDL model) and I find that it is difficult to play. Sharp, precise, unforgiving, arctic--these words describe this guitar. But I think I am a better player for it. A lot of my friends have negras or classical guitars and I do think they have a softer, more expansive and velvety tone. There is less precision and thus more margin for error. When I pick up one of these guitars, I instantly feel it and feel more free to experiment and "go for it."
Some people deny this effect. Maybe the negra or the blanca woods have nothing to do with it, but this is certainly the experience of many people. Whether or not it's the woods or not, hardly matters, if the eventually effect is the same. And it doesn't matter if the luthier CAN make it sound different, either, if they don't. I'm very comfortable adding my experience in this arena to yours.
Aaron Green told me that the woods were not the arbiter of the sound, as has Sean here a few times. But no one has answered me: Then why do we even bother using expensive Brazilian rosewood at all? That it has an effect on the guitar is about as undeniable as saying that tin would have an effect on the guitar. Why does Paco and Vicente buy these negras if they don't have different qualities than blancas? Is it an aesthetic choice only? Seems a stretch.
Vicente Carillo, the luthier of my guitar and not particularly well known, is better known for his negras (Rio) than blancas. Why would this be, if they sound different?
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Date Nov. 24 2004 15:13:20
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Jim Opfer
Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.
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RE: Classicals Flamencos and Negras (in reply to Kate)
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Hi Kate,
Yes, that's my experience.
I went to Granada a few years ago to find a great guitar.
I wrote to Manuel Bellido before going as I had a nice guitar made by Montero y Bellido in 1968 (the year they both started, worked together and shared a label). When I got to his big shop, the son in law brought out very poor guitars, telling me thay were 1a quality, I have very little Spanish, but had enough to tell him that just by inspection, they were 2nd quality.
I was invited to sit down and play, I'm no great player by any standard but as soon as I did, the reaction changed. Manuel's daughter came out from a room behind the display case and told me she would take me to meet her father at his workshop as the best guitars were kept there.
I went back the following day and she drove me to the workshop about 1/2 mile away. Manuel was there and let me play a negra guitar which he said was a sister guitar to the one recently bought by Tomatito (now, this might have been a sales pitch but it seemed very sincere to me). I liked it but didn't buy it.
Also in Granada, I went to German Perez. His wee shop on Gomerez about 3m by 2m. His wife and daughter were there and showed me rubbish guitars claiming them to be 1a. Again, invited to sit and play. When I did, the son came through from next door, took the guitar off me and invited me through to see more guitars (next shop unit up the hill).
He was very honest, he had no quality instruments available, November was the wrong time, something to do with few guitars being finished because of the damper climate that time of the year. He offered to have his father make me a guitar, but I thought German might be more a classical maker, so I declined.
Great thing was that while this was going on, the mother and daughter were off speaking to Mario Maya and they brought him round to meet this odd Scots guy who played flamenco guitar. I was stunned to meet this mega star I'd just watched on the Flamenco video a few weeks before, pinching myself to make sure it was real. Very surreal experience. If my Spanish had been better than just being about able to ask for a beer, I reconed this man would have been very willing to spend more time with me but no way given that our conversation was all through the daughter who speaks english. What a wasted opportunity.
Anyway, point is may be not so much to do with being a famous player and more about being genuine and interested in flamenco with some ability to play.
Jim.
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Date Nov. 25 2004 17:25:00
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Guest
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RE: Classicals Flamencos and Negras (in reply to Jim Opfer)
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I'va always heard that the best Spanish guitars are reserved for the best Spanish guitarists.
I've heard this from several people who have travelled down there in search and returned empty-handed. Usually, the 'especial' guitars are always spoken for and never displayed to unknown customers.
I think the pedigree of many "famous label" guitars can be considered quite suspect. Lots of smoke & mirrors down there, especially when it comes to rich gringos buying world-class guitars.
It goes to prove that if you want an absolutely world-class guitar its best to stick with N.american luthiers like DeVoe, Brune, C.Vega, Green etc
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Date Nov. 26 2004 13:52:18
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Kate
Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: Living in Granada, Andalucía
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RE: Classicals Flamencos and Negras (in reply to Guest)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Guest
I think the pedigree of many "famous label" guitars can be considered quite suspect. Lots of smoke & mirrors down there, especially when it comes to rich gringos buying world-class guitars.
It goes to prove that if you want an absolutely world-class guitar its best to stick with N.american luthiers like DeVoe, Brune, C.Vega, Green etc
For a start here in Spain foreigners are not called Gringos, that's in Mexico my friend  and what on earth is suspect about Spanish guitars and their makers ?
In my experience here, far from ripping people off, Luthiers are very honorable and tend to advise foreign buyers to go and buy a cheaper beginners guitar off the shelf. Unless of course , like Jim you can sit down and impress the hell out of them enough for them to see you as a serious player and purchaser. I have never heard of any flamencos playing the guitars you mention and am not sure quite what you have proved about North American Luthiers being better. Here in Granada there are over forty luthiers most of which are family run and have been in business for generations, and with incredible reputations for their craft, no smoke and mirrors there.
I sit sometimes in the luthiers shops on Cuesta Gomerez and every five minutes tourists wander in to try out the guitars, they rarely buy and so no wonder most luthiers do not take them seriously. However when a player comes in it is quite a different matter. Usually because a player, unlike a tourist, is considering a serious purchase and is prepared to place and order a gutar especially built and wait for it. When tourists learn there are waiting lists they complain they want to buy and take a guitar home now an luthiers here do not work like that.
Kate
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Emilio Maya Temple
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Date Nov. 26 2004 14:16:38
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Guest
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 RE: Classicals Flamencos and Negras (in reply to Jim Opfer)
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Kate - Well I am not going to get into a flame war on an internet board - if you want to get offended by my comments thats fine by me.
As for not having heard of DeVoe and Brune - maybe you should look up people like Vicente Amigo (who plays DeVoes exclusively), Moraito owns a Brune, Sabicas also played DeVoes. Paco has a DeVoe too. Sorry I do not have more names for you.
Regarding my comment 'smoke & mirrors' - all I can say is that I wonder how many tourists have been sold "the last guitar faustino made", or "the sister guitar to the one Paco is playing" ..... after all business is business.
I was just reporting information I have heard from friends who returned from Spain empty-handed and extremely dissapointed by their experiences. (and these are all guys who can play flamenco - not someone "off the street").
One guy even checked out an Atocha Conde which had a carpio stamp on the inside!!
I'm not saying there are not great luthiers in Spain - obviously there are!! All I'm saying is that the absolute best especial guitars are not sold to tourists.
The N. American luthiers I mentioned make the entire guitar themselves, from start to finish. No assistants, no one else doing polishing or setup. For me thats the real hand-made guitar. One guy crafting everything from start to finish. But this is just one "gringos" opinion  ....... and the way the USD is these days its not even worth 0.01 euros! 
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Date Nov. 26 2004 17:17:34
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