RE: Now I know what Conde's are for!

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srshea

Posts: 833
Joined: Oct. 29 2006
From: Olympia, WA in the Great Pacific Northwest

RE: Now I know what Conde's are for! (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo
I am surprised Willie even knows this chord.

Hmn, and I'm not. Isn't it crazy, etc.................

quote:

Eb Diminished 7

quote:

D#dim7 is a better. Constructed from Raised 7th in key of Eminor. (D becomes D#). Key of Fb minor is "theoretical" (Raised 7th Ebb becomes Eb)

quote:

taken out of context there's no way of knowing because any of the four notes could be the root, and you can't say what key it's in without seeing how it resolves or how it's spelled.

Oh, man. This is exactly why I'm too lazy to really learn this stuff.

Willie Chord TM.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 2 2010 9:42:39

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Now I know what Conde's are for! (in reply to srshea)

My Dad is morte or less the same generation as Willie Nelson and he plays that kind of stuff.
He just calls it diminished.

But well,-- He doesnt wear a cowboy hat.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 2 2010 10:10:15

JasonMcGuire

Posts: 1141
Joined: Apr. 10 2007

RE: Now I know what Conde's are for! (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

D#dim7 is a better. Constructed from Raised 7th in key of Eminor. (D becomes D#)

Oooops.... ahhhhhh the memories... the smell of chalkdust and schooldesks that you can't sit in and play guitar....

But, if you were reading a chord chart in flat key like Bb,Eb,F,Ab etc..... it would be best to write the chord Ebdim.... because generally you TRY to use mostly flats in the "flat" keys.
Makes for easier reading.

nerd mode jazz nomenclature version off.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 2 2010 10:20:32

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: Now I know what Conde's are for! (in reply to srshea)

Check 7:59 key-scene!!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 2 2010 10:41:43

Estevan

Posts: 1938
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: Now I know what Conde's are for! (in reply to Doitsujin)

quote:

7:59

El Kabong!!!

Now you know what 'Andalusian Guitars' are for!

(oh, sorry...that should be in 'Product Reviews'...)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 2 2010 10:57:55

NormanKliman

Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007

RE: Now I know what Conde's are for! (in reply to Estevan)

quote:

so many places where his compás is off.

Yeah, I agree. He gets good tone but slows down and speeds up in an unmusical way.

quote:

any of the four notes could be the root

Well I ain't sayin nuthin here, cause I'm not what you'd call an enharmonic expert (ahem) but in case anyone thinks it's hard, it's really simple. It's just dividing 12 by 3 or by 4, a subject very close to our hearts and thumbs. Divide a 12-tone octave into three equal parts (four semitones each) and it's an augmented chord (C-E-G#), divide it into four parts (three semitones) and it's a diminished seventh (C-Eb-F#-A). Don't know if I spelled that right, but it means that the same shape can be used for three (or four) different chords, which makes things easier.

I read years ago in an interview with Pat Martino that he uses the concept as a kind of fretboard shortcut to even more than the three or four related chords, because he takes into account others that he can get by moving a note up or down by one fret. That's like three-dimensional chess or something.

Sure would like to hear some of that flamenco clapping between the guitar and the fiddle.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 2 2010 11:21:45

Ricardo

Posts: 14935
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Now I know what Conde's are for! (in reply to Estevan)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Estevan

quote:

D#dim7 is a better.

Not better; equally good/possible. That's the thing with diminished seventh chords, taken out of context there's no way of knowing because any of the four notes could be the root, and you can't say what key it's in without seeing how it resolves or how it's spelled. And I doubt that Willie spells these things.

[N.B. I am not a nerd. That's just the way it is with dim7 chords.]

Good point!

OK nerd mode back on:
It's just a little pet peeve of mine, there is a subtle logic to spelling chords and scales correctly, because of how they relate to the circle of 5ths. I have no probs with the chord in question being spelled A dim7/Eb (key of Bb minor), B#dim7/D# (key of C#m), F#dim7/Eb (key of Gminor), in addition to simply D#dim7.

The enharmonic equivalents (Bbb or Gx, C, Gb, or Ebdim7 respectively) are all based on non practical, or non realistic "theoretical" keys or scales. (that is harmonic minor scales as those are where the chords would have been constructed from).

The whole/half symmetric scale also allows this chord to exist, but is a non key specific scale that has 8 notes, meaning you can't really define it by a key signature and you will inevitably have to spell it with one of the 7 note names twice. Same deal with chromatic scale, obviously.

Jason was correct that Ebdim7 will pop up when reading jazz charts or pop charts, as chord charts are used to make sight reading and comping harmony easier. In addition, jazz charts often don't use key signatures. When it comes to improvising over a chart, the idea is to treat each individual chord as a separate entity with it's own key/mode/scale options, separate from the song as a whole. Example:

Remember Ebdim7 is spelled Eb-Gb-Bb-Dbb.....

Cm7,Dm7, Ebdim7, Gm7.... should have been spelled F#dim7/Eb, but easier to read the voicing....also:

Bbmaj7, Bdim7, Cm7, Ebdim7.... should be Adim7/Eb....borrowed from Bbminor....and:
Bbm7, Bb7, Ebm7, Ebdim7, F7, Bbm7..... same should have been Adim7.....

Dmaj7,Ebdim7, Em7, A7, Dmaj7 etc.... should have been D#dim7.

So enharmonic misspellings often make for a cleaner chart to read and solo over.

nerd mode off:

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 2 2010 19:43:13

estebanana

Posts: 9392
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Now I know what Conde's are for! (in reply to srshea)

Ricardo,

That's too complicated. It can all be encapsulated in the "Free Willie Chord", which is one of the PLC tonality chords. Free Willie chords are the final and most important chords of the PLC series.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 3 2010 13:59:25

srshea

Posts: 833
Joined: Oct. 29 2006
From: Olympia, WA in the Great Pacific Northwest

RE: Now I know what Conde's are for! (in reply to estebanana)

…..enharmonic equivalents, PLC tonality……

Man, all this chord theory stuff is getting really technical. It’s starting to diminish my enjoyment of the actual music.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 4 2010 14:59:11