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XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

Injuries... 

http://yfrog.com/5dp3101101031jx

Over the last one to two years i developed a nice injury on or rather *in* the tip of my ring finger. In the photos it is the finger one the right side. The only thing you can see is that it is swollen, compared to the middle finger. Since two days it hurts when i touch it, impossible to play guitar. Normaly this is only when i press a certain area of/in the tip. The problem lies deeper in the finger, not on the surface.

What happened is that i pressed too hard 2 times. One was during rehearsal in June 2009 playing a falseta which uses the ring finger a lot. I had to stop playing that falseta for 2 days. The other was during the intermediate challenge, where you play with the ring finger on the D-string.

The surgeon took an X-ray but without result. I stopped playing from December to January, but that didn't help either. Im going to another doc because of my knee, i will ask her, and if that doesn't help, i may need to find a hand specialist or something...

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Фламенко
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 31 2010 1:03:01
 
Doitsujin

Posts: 5063
Joined: Apr. 10 2005
 

RE: Injuries... (in reply to XXX

Never heard about something like that... I had this on the top of my fingers under my nails. When they got too thing coz of rasguados and I used chemicals on top, the chemicals went somehow through the nail and it hurtd like hell. No rasguado possible for a few days. I dont use this chemical anymore = no pain left.

In your case... I have no idea.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 31 2010 1:54:08
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: Injuries... (in reply to Doitsujin

Yes it is very strange.
The only advice i got from docs until now is to not play that often. IN fact, if somebody told me that all my little health problems (with fingers) would be healed if i stopped playing for a year or so, i would do it. But the truth is, that alone just doesn't help.

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Фламенко
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 31 2010 2:20:09
 
Doitsujin

Posts: 5063
Joined: Apr. 10 2005
 

RE: Injuries... (in reply to XXX

I remember a workshop I took from Salvador Guiterez. He plays scales only with i and a finger because he has some sort of injury like you. He told that he cant play very long, than his fingers begin to hurt very bad.. Thats also the reason why he uses i a and not i m ...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 31 2010 2:25:07
 
orsonw

Posts: 1491
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Injuries... (in reply to XXX

Just for background- I am a practicing sports injury therapist (musculo-skeletal/ soft tissue injuries). Musicians' hands are obviously an area of interest to me.

I will share my experience but please go and see someone. This is NOT a diagnosis, that can't be made over the internet. Therefore this is NOT professional advice- just my experience.

I have had something similar also one of my clients, a flamenco player has similar. My feeling is that it is soft tissue so therefore an xray wouldn't show anything.

Mine was quite a sharp pain, like a deep pin stab, as you say not on the surface and in a particular spot.

Mine was self resolving as was my clients, taking a month or two. I used rest, not meaning stopping playing but not over using that finger when acute. I also used ice. The body has a remarkable ability to heal itself given the opportunity.

I think it is due to scar tissue forming in and around nerve endings or simply over stimulation.
The fact your finger is swollen suggests an inflammatory process.
Nerves themselves can become inflammed and hypersensitive. Also further along synapses at the spine and the brain can become hypersensitive after prolonged overstimulation.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 31 2010 2:25:52
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: Injuries... (in reply to orsonw

Thanks orson! I fear, as the doc also told me, there is not much to do to help it healing? Would you say so? The only medicine that he thought could help me is a anti-rheumatism. It is supposed to prevent inflammatories at the joint or something...

The only thing that helps is warmth (blood circulation) and sort of "massages". I rub the fingertip against a nail-brush for this until it gets hot (edit: maybe i have overdone this the day before). It feels better then, but after half an hour the tip gets "sensitive" again.

Well right now even if i wanted to play, i couldnt. I wouldnt mind stop playing, but the thing that bugs me is the possibility that it wont help much, as it didnt in the past.

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Фламенко
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 31 2010 2:44:55
 
orsonw

Posts: 1491
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Injuries... (in reply to XXX

As I said before I can't diagnose over the internet and so any advice I give wouldn't be valid.

However I will share more of my experience but it is not fair to you (or me) to advise you without proper assessment- Please see someone! Perhaps someone specialising in musicians hands, a physiotherapist maybe?



For example.

In December I injured my right m finger tip very badly ripping the end away quite deeply. (My a finger got a good work out as m was out of action! I believe every injury also has possibility for something good to come out of it)
I have a similar sharp nerve type pain there now but it is getting better as my finger heals. I have also used some soft tissue technique to release some of the adhesions and scarring, it's a delicate balance between letting the body do it's thing and helping to get the best repair possible. When we heal the scar tissue can be less functional than the original tissue, treatment can help. I used ice early on when there was inflammation present.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 31 2010 3:10:04
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Injuries... (in reply to XXX

Hi Deniz,

I know this is not any help, but from time to time if I've been practising something a lot, I get a pain "inside" the tip of one of my LH fingers. (Fretboard Hand).

Sometimes it is so bad, it feels like a sudden severe electric shock, making it impossible to continue playing.

The surface skin is OK and there is no apparent swelling.

Luckily, not playing for 3 or 4 days seems to cure it.

Good luck anyway man...these things are a real drag.

cheers,

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 31 2010 3:51:50
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: Injuries... (in reply to Ron.M

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M
Sometimes it is so bad, it feels like a sudden severe electric shock, making it impossible to continue playing.



Yes thats how it started with me. A shock, then it (seemingly) goes away after short time until it comes back, but more severe. Anyways i put ice on it and it got better the pain is away. Whats left is the constant feeling i have since months that there "is something" in the tip when pressing, like some tissue that has been torn and now got loose or something. Yes i will definitely consult somebody. Thanks for the responses anyway.

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Фламенко
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 31 2010 7:21:21
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13059
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Injuries... (in reply to XXX

I think we discussed this in the past. This has happened to me many times since I started playing guitar. the worst times was when my fingers were cold and was not aware how hard I was pressing because I could not really feel the string, then all of a sudden ZING!!!!

It has happened to my ring and pinky before. It goes away, so long as you are very gentle playing for a while, if you MUST play. I have made a conscious effort to examen the amount of pressure I use with the left hand. Even a guitar with an easy action I noticed when I play louder or stronger with the strumming or picking hand, I naturally squeeze tighter with the fretting hand at the same time. It is hard to not do it, but if you can think about practicing deliberately with very light left hand pressure, you can prevent it from happening again.

Ricardo

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 1 2010 9:08:05
 
srshea

Posts: 833
Joined: Oct. 29 2006
From: Olympia, WA in the Great Pacific Northwest

RE: Injuries... (in reply to XXX

Hey, Deniz

I’m not totally clear on the specifics of the problem you’re having, but there seem to be some similarities with my own finger problem, so I figured I’d drop in and cross compare.

From your descriptions I can’t quite tell if what you’re talking about is more of a nerve thing or more of a tissue thing. When you say that the pain is “in” the tip of the finger and that it feels like there’s something “in” there, do you mean right at the surface or deeper into the flesh of your fingertip? And when you say finger tip are you talking about the dead center (where the finger meets the string) or the area where the finger and the nail are connected?

I think of the electrical shock “zing” deal as a nerve thing. It’s like a nerve gets “pinched” or “pops”. But if I’m seeing your photos correctly, it looks like you’ve got swelling in the area where the nail connects to the finger, which is exactly where I’ve been experiencing my problems.

Last June I came home after two nights in a row of dance class. My hands were feeling a bit raw and worn out, but no worse than usual really. I went to do some dishes and as soon as my hands got wet the nail/finger connection area of my left middle finger started stinging like a son of a bitch. Same thing next morning when I took a shower. The stinging-when-exposed-to-water feeling told me that what I was dealing with was some kind of tear or break in the skin. Outside of that, the feeling was basically the same as when I’ve accidentally cut a nail too short (though I did not actually cut the nail to short in this case) and it feels really tender and raw for a few days, before the nail grows out a bit. (It looks like your nails are cut really short. Have you considered that as a potential part of the problem?) I’ve had this happen plenty of times in the past and it’s always worked itself out after a few days of taking it easy. That didn’t happen this time. Things just got worse, even when I fully rested the finger for weeks at a time. Guitar playing became a total no-go, typing on a keyboard would send raw waves of pain up my arm. Even just a gentle, accidental brush of that fingertip against something soft would hurt. Even though this was definitely a soft tissue problem there was still a bit of a sensitive “nervy” aspect to it as well. Sometimes I would get a nervy feeling that would run up my arm and up the side of my neck and jaw. This would happen pretty much at random, and wouldn’t necessarily be triggered by my aggravating the problem finger.

So, I spent the first few months trying to manage the problem, taking some time off, trying to start up again and I got absolutely no where with that. I was focused on isolating the right hand for a time and actually making the best of that for a while when I got a pretty deep cut RIGHT where my thumb callous is. At that point I got very discouraged/depressed and just packed the ol’ git box up and stashed it in the corner. After a few months I tentatively started playing again, and so far I seem to be better. Not 100%, but much better than at any time in the previous 6+ months. I always play with a capo, and have been using low tension strings as I work my way back into playing. I can get away with 60 to 90 minutes a few times a week. Anything beyond that, and I can feel the finger getting close to that “danger zone”, so I’ll back off and take it easy for a few days. Fretting with the finger straight down tends to be more “iffy” than fretting with the finger at an angle, so I’ve been doing that. It’s a little crappy technique wise and sometimes I end up muffling the next highest string but, it’s better than nothing.

So, finger injuries, yeah. This sh*t sucks, doesn’t it? I’m glad to be a least partly better, but I’m still at the point where I’m carefully monitoring myself and managing the problem day to day. Not out of the woods yet. I dunno if this is something that will fully clear up in time, or if I’m gonna have to manage it long-term. Guess I’ll just take it as it comes.

Deniz, all I can say is “I feel your pain”, for real!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2010 16:39:35
 
srshea

Posts: 833
Joined: Oct. 29 2006
From: Olympia, WA in the Great Pacific Northwest

RE: Injuries... (in reply to srshea

In response to Pgh_flamenco on another thread:

“I've never heard of this happening to a finger used for fretting. Was the nail long enough to touch the fb?”

Yeah, the only other similar stories I’ve heard have concerned the strumming hand, not the fretting hand, so I don’t know what’s wrong with me!

The nail wasn’t too long, or too short for that matter, though now I have to keep that nail longer than I used to. If I go too short the problem is more prone to flare up again, but if I let it get too long, it increases the likelihood that the nail will catch on something and pull up from the nail bed, aggravating the problem all over again. So I’ve been micromanaging the length and shape of this nail, and have found an odd, lopsided shape that seems to work best. I’ve been keeping my index nail a bit longer than usual because I started to feel “the problem” start creeping up on that finger a while back as well.

Take care of your fingers, folks!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2010 16:42:09
 
Pgh_flamenco

 

Posts: 1360
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

RE: Injuries... (in reply to srshea

quote:

Yeah, the only other similar stories I’ve heard have concerned the strumming hand, not the fretting hand, so I don’t know what’s wrong with me!


Have you seen an MD yet? It might be a good idea. Hopefully it's something simple--a virus or vitamin deficiency. I'd be pretty concerned and not just because of not being able to play.

Good luck to you too, Deniz.

So where's the foro's osteopath? (Pim)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2010 17:06:14
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: Injuries... (in reply to srshea

Thx for your report. Yes i (need to) have very short nails on my grabbing hand and the observation that the place where nail and flesh meat is swollen is correct. Thats the place which feels the most uncomfortable. Its 9 days that i dont play guitar now, i have no idea how you survived like that for months? I have to say there is little to no recovery. It is still swollen. Yet i have to see another doc for it, so maybe there is still hope to avoid a surgery. Maybe i can start playing via using a protection, like a finger condom or something. Play it safe guys. Safer playing.

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Фламенко
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2010 12:42:24
 
srshea

Posts: 833
Joined: Oct. 29 2006
From: Olympia, WA in the Great Pacific Northwest

RE: Injuries... (in reply to Pgh_flamenco

John,

Yeah, I saw a general practitioner once, and it was just as unsatisfying as I expected it to be.

My own self examination and diagnoses were unfruitful, and the doc didn’t have much more to add. I’m paying out of pocket for medical expenses, and I just couldn’t afford to pursue the matter to the point where I might find someone with some real concrete help to offer. The MD visit was basically paying a guy to tell me to stop playing the guitar, something I had already somehow managed to figure out on my own.

Straight Man: Hey, Doc. It hurts when I move my arm like this.
Funny Man: Well, stop moving your arm like that.
Audience: Booooooo!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2010 14:21:56
 
srshea

Posts: 833
Joined: Oct. 29 2006
From: Olympia, WA in the Great Pacific Northwest

RE: Injuries... (in reply to XXX

quote:

Maybe i can start playing via using a protection, like a finger condom or something.


Oh, man. I’ve got a long list of bullsh*t homemade fixes that I tried out. I superglued it, I wrapped the finger tight in surgical tape hoping that would hold the nail and finger together, and, yes, I even made a little finger condom. Got one of those brown rubber thimble things with nubs all over it that you get at an office supply store, you know, for counting lot’s of money or something. I carefully clipped all the little nubs off so that the surface was smooth and then tried wearing it while playing. There is no “smiley” in all the internet that can express how totally lame and unproductive that experiment was…..

Wish I could offer more help with your problem. Sounds like our aflictions are superficially similar, but ultimately different in nature.

Sounds like your thing is more on the inside of you finger and not at the surface of the skin, but, just for the heck of it, I’ll mention the one thing aside from sitting around and waiting that I think helped a little bit, which was witch hazel. I don’t know if you’ve got a different name for it over there (my one visit to a Berlin drugstore was a bit baffling…). What we get over here is an extract from the witch hazel plant in an alcohol base. It mostly works as a topical astringent but I think it has some good-for-the-skin curative properties as well, and I believe it’s been used for muscular soreness and swelling.

I couldn’t use a nailbrush or anything to clean under the nail since that would just inflame the problem, so I routinely flushed out that area with witch hazel. I think, for me, it was good for keeping the area clean and bacteria free, and the alcohol was good for making sure the “fissure” area was kept dry.

Sorry, but that’s all I got…..
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2010 14:30:55
 
Pgh_flamenco

 

Posts: 1360
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

RE: Injuries... (in reply to srshea

quote:

John,

Yeah, I saw a general practitioner once, and it was just as unsatisfying as I expected it to be.

My own self examination and diagnoses were unfruitful, and the doc didn’t have much more to add. I’m paying out of pocket for medical expenses, and I just couldn’t afford to pursue the matter to the point where I might find someone with some real concrete help to offer. The MD visit was basically paying a guy to tell me to stop playing the guitar, something I had already somehow managed to figure out on my own.


I thought it might be fruitless to visit the average MD. Dr Oz discussed centers for excellence in medicine as a resource for treating unusual conditions and that's where you would have to go unless you lucked out. Too bad some of these MD's are lazy intellectually--of course they'll still take your money.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2010 14:39:09
 
srshea

Posts: 833
Joined: Oct. 29 2006
From: Olympia, WA in the Great Pacific Northwest

RE: Injuries... (in reply to Pgh_flamenco

Hooo boy, do not get me started on the subject of intellectual laziness in the medical establishment. I once went through a years long, debt-digging process of seeking help with a GI problem, during which I saw every kind of doc under the sun: general MD, gastroenterologist, colorectal surgeon, naturopath, homeopath, Chinese medicine, acupuncture, bio-feedback, the works! I was met with a disheartening indifference from all the “traditional medicine” guys, since my symptoms didn’t directly match up with their own immediate knowledge.

My favorite answer from one of these guys to my question as to what he thought the problem might be was an impassive stare and this gem:

“Ya got me…”.

Thanks Dr. Genius, here’s your f*cking check!

I tend to disregard TV gurus, but I gotta say that I am a Dr. Oz fan. He seems to offer a refreshing and pragmatic balance between traditional and alternative medicine and an honest, healthy, whatever-works approach.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2010 15:18:03
 
edguerin

Posts: 1558
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: Injuries... (in reply to XXX

quote:

"is something" in the tip when pressing

Do you mean "something is wrong" in the tip of your finger?
Or, there's something inside the tip of your finger that shouldn't be there (like a splinter)?

_____________________________

Ed

El aficionado solitario
Alemania
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 11 2010 9:10:36
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: Injuries... (in reply to edguerin

No its not like a splinter. When the finger is cold it is more obvious, and when its warm its better.
For example when i roll off the finger, starting from the bottom flesh side to the upper nail side, then it feels uncomfortable in the center, just about where use to plant with on the string. It feels like a "capsule" of liquid, with the consistency of gelatin. Maybe water? Maybe scar tissue?

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Фламенко
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 11 2010 9:20:09
 
veet

 

Posts: 231
Joined: Nov. 29 2004
From: L.A.

RE: Injuries... (in reply to XXX

Maybe a cyst of some kind? See a dermatologist.

I have on my right middle fingertip a deep small wart I've fought with for years, deep in the epidermis. I've frozen it, hacked at it with a scalpel, used commercial wart removers. It always seems to heal up and then comes back in a few months. If i wasn't trying to have a picado, I'd give up.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 11 2010 9:29:09
 
edguerin

Posts: 1558
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: Injuries... (in reply to XXX

Go see a hand surgeon!

oh and Google for "schmerz fingerkuppe"

_____________________________

Ed

El aficionado solitario
Alemania
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 12 2010 7:18:46
 
Florian

Posts: 9240
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Injuries... (in reply to XXX

hey ...i had an injury last year ..i was convinced i was going to have to go have surgery but i didnt...


whomever said the body has amazing capabilities of healing itself is right..

it got to classes holidays so i kind of took it eazy and didnt play as much.....watched alot of dvds..plus most of the times u make those injuries is at classes or gigs or places where u are not fully relaxed and need to be louder ...so u can practice lightly at home after a litlle while of a brake...depending on the extent of your injury...you will know when its right...

so anyway its what i did and my hand felled as new after about 2 or 3 months

now i am always concious of not overpressing or overgrasping but sometimes u get excited in gigs or class...however i think it will work for you to take it eazy

ofcourse dont take my word for it go see an expert...but it worked for me

i didnt take this hand injuries stuff too seriously but now i try to be more cautious...its enough for it to happen once to learn the importance of checking yourself and making sure u limiting your chances of injury..

hope u get it sorted out soon

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Rest In Peace Ron, I will never ever forget you my friend.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 12 2010 8:24:55
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Injuries... (in reply to Florian

Don't listen to Florian's advice.

When he was young, he and his classmates received an "Anti-Chernobyl Pill" issued by the kind generosity of the Romanian government that was claimed to heal any kinds of effects of radiation and just generally "bad stuff" to quell the worries of the public.
Nobody knows what was in that pill. (Florian reckons it was a Panadol).

So Florian's reactions to stuff should not be taken generally, as he might have unique immunity against certain things, maybe even kryptonite?

See a doctor. (they could do with the money to support their lifestyle anyway.)

cheers,

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 12 2010 10:44:34
 
Florian

Posts: 9240
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Injuries... (in reply to Ron.M

quote:

When he was young, he and his classmates received an "Anti-Chernobyl Pill" issued by the kind generosity of the Romanian government that was claimed to heal any kinds of effects of radiation and just generally "bad stuff" to quell the worries of the public.
Nobody knows what was in that pill. (Florian reckons it was a Panadol).

So Florian's reactions to stuff should not be taken generally, as he might have unique immunity against certain things, maybe even kryptonite





as if you remembered lol


true litlle story ...

when i was litlle in romania in summer i used to bludge school to go swimming with a couple of friends...and we found the perfect spot where the water was so perfect and warm...it was like a pond..


thinking back now...the perfect pond was next to some factory and the water was kind of green ( not the natural green) and it had pipes going in and out ....but we liked as it was warm and the pipes provided a nice place to leave our clothes


il let you know if hair , nails and teeth start falling out

u germans are too sencitive ...need

au auu my nails ouch my fingers...no wonder you lost the war

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

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Rest In Peace Ron, I will never ever forget you my friend.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 12 2010 11:11:37
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: Injuries... (in reply to Florian

lol.
Firstly, i am not german.
Secondly, i AM sensitive
I can play guitar now but i have to be veeeerryyy caaareefuulll when planting my ring finger. Of course I'll see a specialist anyways though.

quote:

Straight Man: Hey, Doc. It hurts when I move my arm like this.
Funny Man: Well, stop moving your arm like that.
Audience: Booooooo!




_____________________________

Фламенко
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 12 2010 12:18:06
 
Florian

Posts: 9240
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Injuries... (in reply to XXX

lol on a serious note ...if you need a cheap doctor i know of one thats just become available

_____________________________

Rest In Peace Ron, I will never ever forget you my friend.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 12 2010 12:28:41
 
kozz

Posts: 1766
Joined: Feb. 26 2009
From: Eindhoven NL

RE: Injuries... (in reply to Florian

quote:

ol on a serious note ...if you need a cheap doctor i know of one thats just become available

Does he have a professorial degree?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 12 2010 12:33:17
 
kozz

Posts: 1766
Joined: Feb. 26 2009
From: Eindhoven NL

RE: Injuries... (in reply to XXX

quote:

Over the last one to two years i developed a nice injury on or rather *in* the tip of my ring finger.

Good luck with the finger...must be akward.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 12 2010 12:34:56
 
srshea

Posts: 833
Joined: Oct. 29 2006
From: Olympia, WA in the Great Pacific Northwest

RE: Injuries... (in reply to Florian

quote:


...it had pipes going in and out ....


We call that a Romanian Hottub.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 12 2010 12:38:48
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