need help with more cante stuff!

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at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

need help with more cante stuff!

ok, i'm back in need of desperate help again.

how would you accompany these two letras?

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=124259&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1

i have an idea for the second one,
10-E7 6-C7 10-F 12-Bb 6-A

sounds okay to me, but is it correct?

and i have no idea what to do with the first one.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 20 2010 20:41:59

CuerdasDulces

Posts: 277
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Toronto

RE: need help with more cante stuff! (in reply to at_leo_87)

Hi at_leo,

I've been practicing with this track(I really like it)

I think for the first one you would use Dm,C7,F,Bb,A
Theres some media compas in there

The second one seems right.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 20 2010 21:14:10

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: need help with more cante stuff! (in reply to CuerdasDulces)

excellent track for practice..

i might for fun do some audios and upload tonight...

il try a few different ways of accomp...u should do the same...il be fun to compare ideas..i am keen to do more of this ...and not just wait til a challenge...just for fun and all the time with many diff letras..

the cords are pretty eazy straight foward but it would be fun to mess around with different ways of struming etc..

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 20 2010 21:47:46

CuerdasDulces

Posts: 277
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Toronto

RE: need help with more cante stuff! (in reply to at_leo_87)

I've uploaded a clip from Moraito's encuentro video where he shows how to use medio compas. This is exactly what you need to do when it goes from Dm to C7 etc. to medio compas then repeats and another medio compas.

This is the little knowledge I have of acomp. cante, but I hope it helps you in some way or another.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 20 2010 22:03:13

CuerdasDulces

Posts: 277
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Toronto

RE: need help with more cante stuff! (in reply to Florian)

Florian,

I like to practice with cante especially with bulerias, but to tell you the truth I know really little about it. My teacher showed me a few things but never really got deep into it. I try to wach as many videos as I can to learn more, but theres still some things that are not clear to me.

I've heard many people say that to be a good solo guitarist in flamenco you must first be really good at accomp. cante.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 20 2010 22:15:22

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: need help with more cante stuff! (in reply to CuerdasDulces)

before i live i posted a very quick very simple and straight foward (its not perfect) traditional way of accompanying it...i wana do some diff versions when i come back

i think theres ways of accompanying it even better

http://www.foroflamenco.com/upfiles/36/Zx71914.mp3

hope it helps a litlle

Cuerdas..yes outside spain we are all in the same boat...if no singer available you have to relie on whatever you can to learn it...cds, dvds, etc..

thats why sharing ideas for it here its a brilliant idea..

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 21 2010 0:08:08

aleksi

Posts: 528
Joined: Nov. 10 2008
From: Helsinki, Finland

RE: need help with more cante stuff! (in reply to at_leo_87)

this is a good thread!
at_leo, you brought my mind also to accompanying letras. This one is short enough for my attention so I can give it a go.
florian, way to go. you are generous for seeing the trouble of recording and uploading. I think I learned something, thanks.
The Dmajor chord was suprising. Is used much or is this a rare letra?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 21 2010 1:18:30

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: need help with more cante stuff! (in reply to aleksi)

hi :- )

its no bother...its good for all of us

I dont think i did a D major... are you refering to the first chord ? its just D minor but instead of using the bottom E string i used the 6th...

anyway i am back from my date now so i am gonna try a few diff things..

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 21 2010 3:25:31

aleksi

Posts: 528
Joined: Nov. 10 2008
From: Helsinki, Finland

RE: need help with more cante stuff! (in reply to at_leo_87)

quote:

its no bother...its good for all of us

exelent that you think like this.

quote:

I dont think i did a D major... are you refering to the first chord ? its just D minor but instead of using the bottom E string i used the 6th...

yep, thats what I mean. To me it sounded so bright so I thought its a major. I was playing the letra with the major and it sounded good to me. What do you think, could I use the major and not get bad eye from the cantaor.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 21 2010 3:50:27

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: need help with more cante stuff! (in reply to aleksi)

a different version...i prefer this...very simillar yet its different...less playing and its using more offbeats

next i am gonna try and play around with litlle riffs and fillings between it

quote:

What do you think, could I use the major and not get bad eye from the cantaor.

well depends on what hes singing...if hes singing something traditional that calls for a D minor and u play D Maj then yeah he might..

but if hes closer to D major and as long as you dont surprisse him with it then i guess yeah , why not...if it work it works...i cant remember ever playing a D major in Medio...but maybe

if you would use D major you would normally use it when it goes to the E maj and Amaj key

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 21 2010 5:25:04

CuerdasDulces

Posts: 277
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Toronto

RE: need help with more cante stuff! (in reply to Florian)

Thats really cool Florian. I think I might try it

Maybe everyone should try it, just for fun.

By the way here is the full track on Youtube

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 21 2010 5:48:53

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: need help with more cante stuff! (in reply to CuerdasDulces)

good man.. go for it, love to hear it...thats the idea..

its fun but educational too

thanks il check out the video but if theres guitar on that version i dont wanna see it just yet

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 21 2010 6:01:30

Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: need help with more cante stuff! (in reply to Florian)

quote:

if theres guitar on that version i dont wanna see it just yet

The whole track is unaccompanied so you are safe.

I liked what you uploaded Flo. Each version was better than the last!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 21 2010 7:17:07

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: need help with more cante stuff! (in reply to Ailsa)

ok il check it out then ..thanks Ailsa

I didn last version ...a litlle more playfull..

http://www.foroflamenco.com/upfiles/36/Xu62611.mp3

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 21 2010 7:49:45

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: need help with more cante stuff! (in reply to CuerdasDulces)

quote:

the cords are pretty eazy straight foward but it would be fun to mess around with different ways of struming etc..

easy for you to say! how did you guys figure out the chords? just by ear or do you already know these letras?

hey cuerdas, thanks for uploading that moraito video! that's really cool of you. it will definitely help.

quote:

at_leo, you brought my mind also to accompanying letras. This one is short enough for my attention so I can give it a go.

it's really fun. it's a completely different perspective from playing solo.

quote:

anyway i am back from my date now so i am gonna try a few diff things..

well... you got something to tell us, buddy?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 21 2010 9:49:28

Ricardo

Posts: 14960
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: need help with more cante stuff! (in reply to at_leo_87)

For me, Cuerdasducles example was closest to the standard jerez way to do it. The palmas do that medio compas like he does too, and he was the only one that caught on to that. Of course Florian's way is not wrong at all. There are so many ways to do it, and that is the art of accompaniment. When several guitarists play together, cuerdasdulce's way works best so as to not have too many different things going on.

The only thing I would add is that first letra is a bit valiente, and you guys could really accentuate that Dm on 12 (bigity BAM, 12&ah 1) and cut it off till the C7.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 21 2010 13:58:39

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: need help with more cante stuff! (in reply to at_leo_87)

quote:

easy for you to say! how did you guys figure out the chords? just by ear or do you already know these letras?

Gonne try and brake it down and give you an simple way of looking at it

1...first in medio most of the times theres only 7 or 8 chords it will be (most of the time) so thats your starting point narrowed down

2. this traditional jerez letras most of the time follow a certain preset chord order..
so once u play one( this one for example..quite typical) take or change a chord or two u pretty much can do all

I am gonna use my audio for example..notice the quick chord changes at 00:13 ?
thats a standard way of closing the phrasing or whatever you wanna call it...so thats always there in that spot......and the buleria letra always ends on A ...so now you have only to worry about 3 or 4 chords before it and it can only be one of this (A, D, C or B) .....

so narrow it down for yourself and go from there...

sometimes you will find the E in there sometimes not ...and if there is an E in there most of the time it will be in the same spot as it is here

once you brake it down ..its simple really and only a few possibilities...and once you do it alot...you will get used to it and hear it straight away..

does this help any ?...work backwoods..use what you allready know..and fill in the blanks

quote:

Of course Florian's way is not wrong at all. There are so many ways to do it

yes thats where it gets hard...knowing wich way to go..picking a tastefull way that adds to it and works with it...thats where it really starts to get hard IMO

thats going to be something il be learning for the rest of my life

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 21 2010 18:40:05

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: need help with more cante stuff! (in reply to at_leo_87)

man, you guys kick ass. thanks ricardo and florian.

i'm going to have to apply what you wrote, florian, to really get it. so i think i'm going to try to figure out the rest of the song. maybe we can make this a group project, you in? this could possibly be a huge resource for the foro.

here's my audio btw:
http://www.foroflamenco.com/attachment.asp?m=124375

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 21 2010 19:53:16

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: need help with more cante stuff! (in reply to at_leo_87)

np..thanks to everyone who joined in..it was fun

i am all buleriad out atm lol..i wanna do a diff palo...but if you wanna do the rest of this..il listen and try to help if you have any problems..

i heard your audio...so it sounds like you understanding the chords and changes...now just applie that and change and swap chords as required..and focus on the phrasing...listen to alot of buleria and find out how they strum for specific parts eg...resolving the compas etc..
litlle by litlle

look foward to hearing more on it from you

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 21 2010 20:00:26

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: need help with more cante stuff! (in reply to at_leo_87)

alright, cool. this is really fun!

ok, let's do tangos next! vaminos!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 21 2010 20:04:34

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: need help with more cante stuff! (in reply to at_leo_87)

ok but u have to wait till i finish my workshops this weekend cause i dont have time to work on it and i am not having you bas*ards getting a jump on it

you have to take the audio from my dead clenced hands until monday...

monday....applie what we talked about to bulerias till then

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 21 2010 20:06:04

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: need help with more cante stuff! (in reply to Florian)

quote:

monday....applie what we talked about to bulerias till then

ay, ay captain!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 21 2010 20:13:44

CuerdasDulces

Posts: 277
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Toronto

RE: need help with more cante stuff! (in reply to at_leo_87)

That was great Leo. You're in the right track.
You should keep going at it, try the whole track just to get more practice.

So tangos is next? I'd like to try that.
Monday is good, I'll have some time to listen to some tangos tracks to get an idea of how to accompany.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 21 2010 20:40:21

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: need help with more cante stuff! (in reply to at_leo_87)

quote:

t was great Leo. You're in the right track.
You should keep going at it, try the whole track just to get more practice.

thanks cuerdas. i'll post it up if i get to it this weekend. but now im just craving to play some falsetas and solo stuff!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 21 2010 20:51:12

orsonw

Posts: 1956
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: need help with more cante stuff! (in reply to at_leo_87)

Great thread. I really want to know more about playing for singers,

I have started with Cuerdas version as Ricardo said it is most typical.

I can copy that if I play and don't think but I'm confused about where cords change if I try to think about what I'm doing.

Is this counted in 12's or do you forget all about that and think six's if so how do you know where you are?

Be great if someone could write a quick map of the chord changes to the basic version of Cuerdas and showing which beats they fall on?
For example the "spot" for that quick chord change that Florian mentioned, quoted below falls to 10 but later on the same phrase seems to fall on a different beat? I guess these are the extra sixes?

"I am gonna use my audio for example..notice the quick chord changes at 00:13 ?
thats a standard way of closing the phrasing or whatever you wanna call it...so thats always there in that spot."

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 22 2010 12:21:38

Ricardo

Posts: 14960
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: need help with more cante stuff! (in reply to orsonw)

Map out. Ok.

The first compas the singer sings doesn't give you a chance to catch the rhythm for a full compas (cuz the way they cut the example) but you would probably just be on an A chord, or alternating A and Bb for an entire compas. I recommend the first letra wait till 12 to hit the Dm, but it would not be wrong to make the change on 10. But you need to accentuate the 12th beat anyway. (Florian made a point to leave 12 out in like every compas I think. That is a different way, not really wrong either. But giving the 12 helps the singer have bearings and feel grounded and supported)

So:
Dm-12 (or Bb someone suggested is not wrong.)
wait counts 1-6 in silence or keep the Dm going, your choice.
C7-on count 7 and 8. F major on 9 and 10. F7 is ok too.
(12) golpe, but feel it as new count 6 instead. Bb count 7(or 1)and 8(2), A major on (3)9 and (4)10.
Then count (6) becomes the count 12 of the next compas, and that is how you "cut it" in half. Truly what happened is you feel a double ending: 6,7,8,9,10,11,6,7,8,9,10,11,12....etc.

The second letra is the exact same but you substitute E7 for the Dm on 12, and that is all you need to do.

Ricardo

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 22 2010 22:11:03

stratos13

Posts: 222
Joined: Apr. 11 2005
From: Αθήνα

RE: need help with more cante stuff! (in reply to at_leo_87)

You can also use this por arriba with a capo high (as much as possible

)

http://www.youtube.com/user/reinaldos7#p/u/176/pNcl-4nCfQk

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 23 2010 3:42:22

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: need help with more cante stuff! (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

For me, Cuerdasducles example was closest

i am just playing
cheers
good job Cuerdas

and ofcourse everyone

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 23 2010 5:20:33

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: need help with more cante stuff! (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

The first compas the singer sings doesn't give you a chance to catch the rhythm for a full compas (cuz the way they cut the example) but you would probably just be on an A chord, or alternating A and Bb for an entire compas.

ah ha! that's why i felt it was a bit odd coming in. does this ever happen in real life or would the singer wait for a full compas?

thanks for mapping it out ricardo! i was doing it by feel before but now i know what goes where in this crazy media compas world.

stratos, wow, that's like playing a ukelele. that guy stole our idea! even though he did it first.

nice picture florian, looks like it could be used in a cd cover.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 23 2010 6:43:29

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: need help with more cante stuff! (in reply to at_leo_87)

yes, yes medio compas, i hear it. But somehow i find it more harmonic sounding without medio

maybe because he holds the last tone for so long, resolving earlier gives it another feeling to it, that i dont like as much as the "normal", straight compas version.

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Фламенко

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 23 2010 6:53:54