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Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City
RE: Pepe Habichuela's rasgueado? (in reply to CuerdasDulces)
If that's his rasgueado, I can't imagine a worse idea. Any rasgueado with less than four strokes to the beat just doesn't have enough body. If that isn't bad enough, starting a rasgueado with a finger upstroke is exactly the weakest way to start a rasgueado. Any rasgueado should start with a downstroke. The only exception to that would be to start with an upstroke with P. That is in fact the strongest way to start. Carlos Montoya played a four stroke rasgueado as follows – P up/A down/ M down/ I down. This flows just as smooth as silk, and also makes for a perfect continuous rasgueado. I personally use many different rasgueados, depending on the palo, and frequently mix different rasgueados within the same palo. One of those that I use is actually pretty much the same as Montoya's – the same sequence except that I start with A down – followed naturally by M and I and then P up. In the clip below of Manolo Santos, it's hard to tell, but at about 36 it looks like he starts a rasgueado with P up, though in other places he doesn't.
Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City
RE: Pepe Habichuela's rasgueado? (in reply to CuerdasDulces)
quote:
I know Moraito uses an iai rasqueo which starts with an upstroke. Anders recommends it also for the beginner challenge.
What can I say - if a three stroke rasgueado starting with an upstroke and using I and M is bad, which it is, then a three stroke rasgueado starting with an upstroke and using I and the weak A is positively dreadful. And to teach that to beginners just strikes me as a terrible idea. Especially for beginners, because at least any four stroke rasgueado divides the beat into sixteenths, giving the beat four equal parts, which makes it much easier for beginners to understand, as they can contrast that to eighths, and quarters, etc. I always start my students with a four stroke rasgueado, and all of them master it very quickly, and with no confusion.
RE: Pepe Habichuela's rasgueado? (in reply to Ramon Amira)
Prom, to update your knowledge on rasgeos please goto Nunez DVD! Cuerdas i guess thats the same rasgeo. I also guess that the YouTube learned it from Pepe directly. But, you can always replace m by a which makes anatomically more sense to me, since i and a are less connected than i and m. Nonetheless each his own of course, you must try everything.
Sorry nothing to do with this thread but found this among his favorites
RE: Pepe Habichuela's rasgueado? (in reply to CuerdasDulces)
Just to give balance to the thread for beginners with any interest in flamenco, say after the 1950's or 60's.
Many great players now use iai ( i up, a down, i down) - it is a very common and useful.
There are other three strike rasgeo e.g. mii (m down, i down, i up)
starting/ending on an up or down stroke gives a different colour e.g. you could do aii (a down, i down i up) in place of iai.
Or in the case of four strokes amii (end i upstroke) could be swapped for iami (start i upstroke)
These are just a couple of examples. In other words there are MANY variations. It is worth starting with the basics but then extending having a wide variety for colour and feeling.
There are many technical ways to play exactly the same rasgeo as written out in music, flamenco is more subtle than that- there are lots of choices.
Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A
RE: Pepe Habichuela's rasgueado? (in reply to Ramon Amira)
i agree with everything orson said but i'd like to add...
quote:
Any rasgueado with less than four strokes to the beat just doesn't have enough body
there's more to life than sixteenth notes. what about triplets, quintuplets, etc? the body comes from the strength of each individual stroke, imo. not from mushing in four + strokes into a beat.
quote:
starting a rasgueado with a finger upstroke is exactly the weakest way to start a rasgueado.
if you have a weak upstroke, it is.
quote:
Any rasgueado should start with a downstroke.
no
quote:
The only exception to that would be to start with an upstroke with P. That is in fact the strongest way to start.
p upstroke is way different sounding than a downstroke with the other fingers. it depends on what you want/need/your abilities.
quote:
then a three stroke rasgueado starting with an upstroke and using I and the weak A is positively dreadful.
if you have a weak A then it's more reason to practice i,a,i
quote:
And to teach that to beginners just strikes me as a terrible idea.
imo, teaching people to avoid certain rasgueados would be limiting and counter productive. one should learn all the different rasgueados they can. for instance, in tangos, i used to do ami, but now i play, i up, a down, i down and it sounds so much more groovy. if i had the same prejudice as you, i wouldn't have discovered that.
prom, you should try a up, i up, a down, i down. i have a feeling it'll give you nightmares. lol.
RE: Pepe Habichuela's rasgueado? (in reply to CuerdasDulces)
Yeah, it looks to me like the idea is to do anything but triplets with that. Alain Faucher indicates the same rasgueado in his excellent book on Pepe Habichuela: m-m-i-m, m-i-m-m, i-i in sixteenths.
I use a-i-i in a number of ways, not just beating out double triplets, but for example in sixteenths starting on beat 1.5 (begins with eighth-note rest) a-i, i-a-i-i, i which gets you to beat 3. I use that for fast soleá and for tangos, especially por medio.
I got the a-i-i idea in general from a guy who was older than Pepe and played with the strength and precision of Marote. David Serva makes great use of the same rasgueado but using little finger instead of ring.
It doesn't make much sense (well, not guitar sense, anyway) to casually write off a ternary mechanism like that. Depends what you do with it, and the more rasgueados you can do the better. Keeps you healthy in all kinds of ways, you know?
quote:
starting a rasgueado with a finger upstroke is exactly the weakest way to start a rasgueado
No, it doesn't make sense for you to say that (not guitar sense, anyway). Parrilla did that all the time and I'd never call him weak.
RE: Pepe Habichuela's rasgueado? (in reply to CuerdasDulces)
quote:
Take a look at his own 'Special' rasgueado
Up until seeing his demonstration, I thought it was exclusivly mine. No teacher back when I started and it was the only way I could figure out to get a roll on the strings. Never use it now. .
Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City
RE: Pepe Habichuela's rasgueado? (in reply to CuerdasDulces)
TO DENIZ - "Prom, to update your knowledge on rasgeos please go to Nunez DVD!"
Thanks for the advice, but I have no need to "update" my knowledge of rasgueado. As I said, I play numerous different rasgueados. Since we have a finite number of fingers available (5), and a finite number of directions with which to use them (2), then there is a finite number of combinations that can be employed, and even fewer that can be employed to any reasonable effect. I have studied and tried every reasonably possible combination, and use many of them, so there is nothing to be updated.
TO AT_LEO_87 - "the body comes from the strength of each individual stroke, imo. not from mushing in four + strokes into a beat."
Four strokes to a beat is not "mushing" anything in, quite to the contrary, only three strokes to a beat is spacing it out, making it far too sparse. I defy anyone to play a palo that normally goes at a slower tempo, say Soleares, and use three strokes to a beat in the typical Soleares rasgueado passage that goes F7th on beats one, two, and three, then C on beats four, five, and six, etc. No matter how strong you make each individual stroke, they would be spaced so far apart that it would sound ridiculous.
quote: starting a rasgueado with a finger upstroke is exactly the weakest way to start a rasgueado.
AT LEO - "if you have a weak upstroke, it is."
No – an upstroke is by nature a weaker stroke. My upstroke is plenty strong, as are other players', but no matter how strong anyone gets it, it is never as strong as that same player's downstroke.
quote: Any rasgueado should start with a downstroke.
AT LEO - " no"
Yes.
Quote: using I and the weak A is positively dreadful.
AT LEO - "if you have a weak A then it's more reason to practice i,a,i."
I don't have a "weak A." What I said was "the weak A finger." Are you trying to say that A is a strong finger? Is your A finger as strong as your other fingers? It was a comment in general – A is the weakest finger, therefore I referred to it as "the weak A finger," which is exactly what it is. As with the upstroke, no matter how strong you get the A finger, it is anatomically relatively weaker than the other fingers.
quote: And to teach that to beginners just strikes me as a terrible idea.
AT LEO - "imo, teaching people to avoid certain rasgueados would be limiting and counter productive. one should learn all the different rasgueados they can. for instance, in tangos, i used to do ami, but now i play, i up, a down, i down and it sounds so much more groovy. if i had the same prejudice as you, i wouldn't have discovered that."
It is not "prejudice" to suggest that it's a terrible idea to teach a beginner a terrible rasgueado. A three stoke to the beat with I and A is not only terrible in general, it is also more difficult for a beginner to execute than other rasgueados. So why on earth would anyone suggest teaching that to beginners, who, as it is, frequently struggle with even easier rasgueados. There is time later for beginners to experiment with various different rasgueados.
AT LEO - "prom, you should try a up, i up, a down, i down. i have a feeling it'll give you nightmares. lol."
Just reading it would give anyone a nightmare, let alone playing it. Which is exactly my point. Since there are many other combinations available, why go out of your way to find an awful one. I think if we had a humorous "Try to create the worst possible rasgueado" contest, then a three stroke with I and A would take first prize.
RE: Pepe Habichuela's rasgueado? (in reply to Ramon Amira)
quote:
Any rasgueado should start with a downstroke.
Even if you're afraid of anything that's happened after the 1950s, you still must have heard of Niño Ricardo... he started rasgueados with an i upstroke all the time. Nothing wrong with that at all.
Here's another secret: you don't always have to start on the downbeat
RE: Pepe Habichuela's rasgueado? (in reply to CuerdasDulces)
BTW, Critic, we are still waiting to hear you upload some of your playing. Seriously! You sound like you think you're a really good player, and you might be. But I think you would get a lot more respect for you ideas here if you demonstrated your skills by contributing some audio.
RE: Pepe Habichuela's rasgueado? (in reply to CuerdasDulces)
It is quite simple. Upstroke sounds much different than downstroke. It has to do with the side of the nail that strikes the strings, the direction of strokes and, most importantly, which strings sound first (bass or treble). Listen to dancers! they have a ton of different combinations of taps, and some sound like downstroke rasgueado, and some like upstroke. Using both in variety gives you a sort of tonal syncopation.
RE: Pepe Habichuela's rasgueado? (in reply to CuerdasDulces)
quote:
quote: Any rasgueado should start with a downstroke.
AT LEO - " no"
P. critic - "Yes."
no
(EDIT: Hey Grisha, good youre popping in this "strange technique" thread. ^^ You are also doing some uncommon techniques. i.e. the slow p up instead of slow m up. And some other things which are special for your playing.
That shows just one more time that in flamenco you are free to do and develop like you want, if it works in the end. (But if you do, dont make a video about it, dont upload it to youtube and dont tell the people that your best friend Paco de Lucia or whoever showed it to you and confuse beginners with that information. In short,..dont tell the people fakes. Pepe Habichuela doesnt do that rasguado.) So play m or small finger up as you like, if it works .. Its fine. I also have developed some special "tricks" for me to overcome some technical problems.)
RE: Pepe Habichuela's rasgueado? (in reply to Doitsujin)
Open mindedness, musical inspiration and experiment is the origin of any rasgeo- they weren't handed down on a stone tablet.
However iai is now a very standard rasgeo, as is starting on an upstroke.
I know some older style players don't need these rasgeo (or techiniques like flicking off the thumb.) The limited range of rasgeo doesn't restrict them. It sounds as if Prominent critic is satisfied with his range of rasgeo. However there is a wider possible range than any one player uses, best to find what each prefers for themselves.
I know Jason teaches some rasgeo to beginners that are causing objection here, I trust Jason as a teacher, the proof is patent. I highly recommend his website to beginners or anyone else.
Flamenco has spread far and beyond it's original source but I dont imagine it would have got off the ground if people had taken a stiff and conservative attitude. Thankfully now it can survive that and we can all enjoy it however we like, even when we're completely wrong!
(It will even survive idiots like myself writing on an internet forum how un-flamenco is that!)
RE: Pepe Habichuela's rasgueado? (in reply to Doitsujin)
Personally, I think there is too much concern given to Rasgueado technique.
At the end of the day it's just repetetive strumming with open fingers for God's sake!
There are hundreds of combinations...
The individual strokes of the rasgueado has nothing to do with compás as long as the whole sequence begins and ends at the right place.
So it can be 2 strokes per beat, 3 per beat or 4 per beat or whatever....
Or upstrokes or downstrokes...
The choice is yours...just whichever sounds best to you...
Using ANY fingers in ANY combination.
Paco Peña for example (who does some of the best "downhome" Ras in the business) does LOTS of different rasgueados using various fingers, strokes and combinations according to his mood at the time.
Just try to sound like you're groovin with it and hang loose is my opinion....
(People like Julian Bream think Raaasgwado is a seriously complicated and utterly precise technique IMO.)
It's not.
Alot of folk put PP down for being "old school" and "traditional", but he's a contemporary of PdL and has a lot of cool moves, only he prefers the more traditional style himself. I asked him about PdL way back in 1969 (just before I got the "Fantasia Flamenca" album...I only had the "Dos Guitarras in Hispanoamerica" album)
I said but doesn't PdL just play "popular" stuff? Like Spanish and Latin Folk songs? Do you know him?
His whole face changed and he said, " I do what I do...and I'm happy with my technique...I can about play and express what I want now.... Sure... he plays popular things...but let me tell you... when Paco de Lucia wants to play "Flamenco", he is absolutely fantastic...(shaking his head and waving his hand.)
The last time I saw him I think he was thinking about getting married.."(laughs).
You've got to remember that they both probably knew about each other from about 12 years of age, long before the world had heard of either of them... He being in Cordoba and the other just being down the road in Algeciras and both visiting Niño Ricardo in Sevilla. These guys go back a long time... just as Vicente is a fellow Cordobian and good friend of both guys.
It's not like modern day pop stars who spring from nowhere. Fans are very divisive when the truth is actually something else IMO.
People dismiss Paco Peña too much IMO... He is a great source of inspiration, and a very genuine guy.
RE: Pepe Habichuela's rasgueado? (in reply to Ron.M)
quote:
I said but doesn't PdL just play "popular" stuff?
His whole face changed and he said, " I do what I do...and I'm happy with my technique...I can play and express what I want now.... Sure... he plays popular things...but let me tell you... when Paco de Lucia wants to play "Flamenco", he is absolutely fantastic...(shaking his head and waving his hand.)
nice. It's easy to be goaded by intimidating technique or extensive knowledge rather than knowing what you want. It wouldn't matter if it didn't take 10-20 years to get the technique right.
Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City
RE: Pepe Habichuela's rasgueado? (in reply to CuerdasDulces)
1) None of this has anything whatsoever to do with "1960s" or "old vs. new" or "traditional vs. modern." It has to do with how a rasgueado sounds and how it comes off the fingers. According to the comments I'm reading it doesn't make any difference what pattern you play, as long as you like the way it sounds, so they're all equal. Fine. If it doesn't make any difference, then here's a pattern everyone should enjoy playing and teaching to beginners – X up – M down – A down. That should sound "cool."
2) DETERESA - "Even if you're afraid of anything that's happened after the 1950s, you still must have heard of Niño Ricardo... he started rasgueados with an i upstroke all the time. Nothing wrong with that at all."
I'm not "afraid" of anything except things that don't work. And I'm not sure where you got the idea that Nino Ricardo started rasgueados with an i upstroke all the time. I've seen clips of him in the past and I never saw him start a rasgueado with an upstroke. Out of curiosity I just now went to YouTube to take a look, and here's the only clip I could find of him on YouTube. Not one of the rasgueados he plays starts with an upstroke.
3) Several people here have disputed my assertion that a downstroke is stronger than an upstroke. If it isn't stronger, then why, in any palo when there is a strong beat that the player wants to emphasize, he always uses a downstroke. I could give a hundred links to major guitarists playing bulerias, and every time there is a strong beat they use a downstroke. Here is just one of Paco de Lucia, but you can look at any player. On every single strong beat he uses a downstroke, never an upstroke.
4) No one has yet addressed one of my main comments, which is that a three stroke rasgueado is simply too sparse for any of the generally slower palos like Soleares. I will repeat my example – by the way, anyone can try it for themselves and see. A common Soleares rasgueado passage goes with F7 for the first three beats, followed by C for the next three, etc. Play that at a typical Soleares tempo. You can make every stroke just as strong as possible, but they will be spaced so far apart that it will sound preposterous.
RE: Pepe Habichuela's rasgueado? (in reply to Doitsujin)
quote:
I never saw Habichuela doing an m upstroke.
Just because you never saw it, doesn't mean that he doesn't use it. Pepe certainly uses the m upstroke. You can see it in his Encuentro video, in the alegrías.
quote:
I never saw anybody doing this. Its useless IMO.
Obviously Pepe has a different opinion, as he finds it quite useful. (And - IMO - his rasgueos sound rather good.) He often uses m where most people use i.
Posts: 3459
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: Pepe Habichuela's rasgueado? (in reply to Andy Culpepper)
I am always amused at someone who makes a categorical statement that one "cannot" do something, regardless of whether or not he is a good flamenco guitarist, or anything else for that matter. Nothing would progress if everyone took that attitude. I am reminded of George Bernard Shaw's observation:
"The rational man adapts himself to the world. The irrational man persists in attempting to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends upon the irrational man."
Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England
RE: Pepe Habichuela's rasgueado? (in reply to Ramon Amira)
quote:
a three stroke rasgueado is simply too sparse for any of the generally slower palos like Soleares. A common Soleares rasgueado passage goes with F7 for the first three beats, followed by C for the next three, etc. Play that at a typical Soleares tempo. You can make every stroke just as strong as possible, but they will be spaced so far apart that it will sound preposterous.
Well I know I'm going to get myself into trouble for this, but I think it's fine if played well - with control and in compas. Maybe not all the time, but as a contrast. I could dance to it without any problem.
Sometimes people are so keen to have too many notes. Let's have more space!
Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A
RE: Pepe Habichuela's rasgueado? (in reply to Ramon Amira)
prom, again, what about triplets? what do you do for triplets in bulerias. you say there should be four strokes to every rasgueado, no less. no one is arguing with you that triplets sounds can sound too sparse for slower things. but you said there must be four strokes in every rasgueado. that's just totally not true. and what andy, said, you dont have to always start on the downbeat. three stroke rasgueados are great for this.
i upstroke can be made strong enough to start a clean rasgueado. it's also a good way to make sure you land down on a downbeat with a downstroke. the guys that use rasgueos that start with an i upstroke got one more rasgueado pattern to use than you. i upstroke will always be weaker than a downstroke, i agree. but it doesn't mean it can't be used for a good effect.
about the a finger, go watch a good player play a good triplet rasgueado with i,a,i and tell me their a finger is too weak and that rasgueado is pointless.
you calling that rasgueado terrible is prejudice. many people use it to great effect. obviously, you're not one of them. your students are missing out on one great, USEFUL rasgueado because of your prejudice. how do you teach them to do triplets?
you may find a pattern awful, maybe because you haven't learned it well enough.
sorry if i'm sounding like a jerk. it's just that misinformation accompanied with an arrogant know it all attitude is really annoying.
RE: Pepe Habichuela's rasgueado? (in reply to Ron.M)
quote:
Alot of folk put PP down...
Hi Ron. His technique is solid, no question about it. It's more than that: His technique is a pleasure to hear because he's creative about it. Like you said, lots of different rasgueados. I think he's among the best, not like an acrobat or an athlete (although I'd consider him to be a "technical" player), but more like someone who understands what flamenco guitar is about and also plays incredibly well. Rather than just knowing a few falsetas of Ramón Montoya and Niño Ricardo, he knows how to "make the guitar talk like that." Not making much sense here, hope you know what I mean.
quote:
Using both in variety gives you a sort of tonal syncopation.
Hi Grisha, that's taking things to another level!
quote:
Flamenco has spread far and beyond it's original source but I dont imagine it would have got off the ground if people had taken a stiff and conservative attitude.
Hi orsonw, good observations. In particular, the one I've quoted is a subject for many threads! I don't care much for the "sociological" sort of theories about flamenco because of all the conjecture involved (there are so few studies about the actual music!), but it seems obvious that people have been trying to save flamenco (from itself?) for a long time, going back to the 19th century flamencologist Demófilo and up to the whole neo-classical period in the 1950s-1970s (not just Mairena). I think that causes some people to feel like they're on a mission to save flamenco or something. Doesn't make much sense today. It's one thing is to record some ancient style before it disappears forever but nearly everything's already been recorded. Don't get me wrong, I'm squarely in the traditionalist camp, but I think too many rules can be a bad thing.
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