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Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A
RE: Pepe Habichuela's rasgueado? (in reply to Ailsa)
quote:
i upstroke will always be weaker than a downstroke, i agree.
Sorry I don't. I mean maybe it tends to be weaker, but it's not always weaker. I find it quite strong on m-a-i down, i up.
that was stupid of me, i shouldn't have said always because it's totally dependent on the context and the player. i was more just thinking about a single stroke, up vs down.
RE: Pepe Habichuela's rasgueado? (in reply to Estevan)
quote:
quote:Doit
I never saw Habichuela doing an m upstroke.
quote: estevan: Just because you never saw it, doesn't mean that he doesn't use it. Pepe certainly uses the m upstroke. You can see it in his Encuentro video, in the alegrías.
Oh,.. Pepes book (Alain Faucher, Flamenco esencias, Pepe Habichuela2001) was the first one I´ve bought many years ago... I bought it in a shop for classical guitars and a classical guitarist looked inside, checked the price (around 30Mark=15Euros) and asked me if that book is really worth paying 15Euros..and laughed. I remember I saw Pepe wasnt using amii rasguados in his alegrias. The same time I was told by Rafael cortes doing these rhythms imiimiimii starting with i upstroke. So...I didnt pay much attention to the writing in this book which is actually mmim mimm i starting m upwards. In the encuentro book is written amim amii. Both show m upstrokes..so ok... estevan, I was wrong. Pepe does m upstrokes and it seems to be useful for him. Yes he sounds pretty good. One of my favorite players. But it still is odd. ^^ For me iaiiaiiaii works best. Some people play the guitar with their feet...so,.. whatever one like it good.
RE: Pepe Habichuela's rasgueado? (in reply to CuerdasDulces)
I dont get the staring with up or down or always downstroke discussion.. Most often its important how many hits you wanna put into one beat and the most important thing is how you end up with the last stroke. Often its important to have the hand in acertain position to be able to go on with with thumb or picado after rasguados. That its not important at all if you start up or downstroke. Its only important how you end up. Well that is more important for abanico..
RE: Pepe Habichuela's rasgueado? (in reply to Doitsujin)
Hm i choose the rasg after the sound i want to have. Eg, solea i(up)ai sixtuplets or camii quintuplets or amii sixtheents. Especially the iai has a distinct sound and i like it alot. It has something to do with the presence of the trebles.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ron.M
It's not like modern day pop stars who spring from nowhere. Fans are very divisive when the truth is actually something else IMO.
People dismiss Paco Peña too much IMO... He is a great source of inspiration, and a very genuine guy.
Fans can even dismiss DiMeola and McLaughlin although Paco shared ONE STAGE with them, simply because its not their taste. Same goes for PP and PDL. They are playing different styles, somebody who likes the one doesnt have to like the other.
quote:
There is supposed to be a picado at 1:34 in this footage, which has been apparently cut out...
RE: Pepe Habichuela's rasgueado? (in reply to CuerdasDulces)
quote:
quote: "Sometimes people are so keen to have too many notes. Let's have more space!"
quote: "Especially now, we need more silence in the world. Silence can be magical."
HA !!! Try telling that to modern flamenco guitarists. If "Nature abhors a vacuum," a modern flamenco guitarist abhors a silence.
Stating that modern flamenco guitarists are all thinking the same? Its not true. I guess the composition with most silence is a modern one not a traditional one.
Here an example of the "controversial" Anton Jimenez.. ^^And its not the one with most silence, he has more minimalistic compositions.
RE: Pepe Habichuela's rasgueado? (in reply to Ramon Amira)
quote:
HA !!! Try telling that to modern flamenco guitarists.
Hopefully us foreign players will finally save the true, the sacred, the profound inner principle of flamenco from the ignorant, dilettantish Spaniards...
But who am I to judge them?
"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a modern flamenco guitarist to enter into the kingdom of silence."
Posts: 14828
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Pepe Habichuela's rasgueado? (in reply to Ramon Amira)
quote:
I have studied and tried every reasonably possible combination, and use many of them, so there is nothing to be updated.
Without going through and try to (pointlessly) point out the problems with what you are saying, or preaching rather, like others have done, I just want to say, I feel sorry for both you and your students. I seriously hope they can find their way and look beyond your narrow idea of technique and rhythm and it's purpose in flamenco guitar playing.
In the video you uploaded of Paco doing bulerias, you contradict your self by saying there are no upstrokes on important beats. Pretty much, in that vid, every count 10 that he closes with rageo is ami-i up on the 10th and very important beat.
In regards, for anyone serious about developing their rasgueados, it is quite common to start i upstrokes for certain rhythms. A good example is this Rondeña of paco. You can see at 4:09 he answers the melody, and again the passages at 5:12.
Up strokes are necessarily brighter, which makes up for the seeming "weakness", although that is not a good term. I feel dynamics are important for having success with rasgueados.
Habichuela, the simple thing is YES that is his own personal rasgueado. In most cases use and development of rasgueados is personal. All students should understand this, and learn as many as they can, so long as their instructor is emphasizing the rhythm and tonal purpose of each.
Paco Peña does not have much to do with this thread, but I don't feel he is under rated at all. Not sure why Ron feels that way. Only thing I will say is the reason he is not a "figura" of guitar like some of this contemporaries, is because of his personal choice to intrepret the classics, rather then compose a lot of his own material, and also he did not really do much in terms of cante accompaniment that I am aware of, making his mark in the flamenco world as all the other figura's of flamenco guitar have. IN other words, ALL flamenco guitar figuras seem to be associated with at least ONE singer that they made their name playing for. Non of this takes away from the fact his playing is exceptional, and his interpretations of the classics are a treasure for the modern era.
I just want to add that Carlos Montoya's rasgueados kind of suck compaired most others. In fact it seems he used to tune his guitar way down (a 5th I saw in one video) and put the capo up real high to make the strings snap more. Lame.
Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City
RE: Pepe Habichuela's rasgueado? (in reply to Ricardo)
RICARDO -
Save your sympathy for people who think that a three stroke per beat rasgueado with A and I is a good rasgueado and should be taught to beginners. My students are lucky that they have a teacher who wouldn't dream of teaching them something like that, when there are any number of rasgueados that are much better for beginners. As for my "preaching," the last time I looked the title of this website was "FORO Flamenco." I was under the impression that "forum" meant an exchange of ideas and opinions. Why is it whenever you give your opinion we are to see it as received gospel, but when I give my opinion I am being dogmatic and preaching. I previously said that I felt the use of a cajon to accompany Bulerias was inappropriate, and you accused me of being closed minded etc., and then went on to tell us how your opinion that the use of a cajon was the correct one.
As for the downstroke, I don't know what video you're watching, but in every one of the usual typical Bulerias rasgueado sequences he plays downstrokes on the strong third beat and again on the tenth.
With respect to the Rondena, we're talking apples and oranges here. In both places that you cite, this is just a brief passing rasgueado. That is not what I have been referring to. A rasgueado pattern frequently is repeated for two or more measures, such as in Soleares, Alegrias, Farruca, etc. and sometimes in continuous rasgueado, such as in Granadinas. I feel that to start these rasgueados with an upstroke is a weak way to start. And I will repeat that in any palo that goes at a somewhat slower tempo such as Soleares, three strokes per beat will sound anemic. I will repeat my example – and I invite anyone on this forum with a genuinely open mind to try it for themselves and see. A common Soleares rasgueado passage goes with F7 for the first three beats, followed by C for the next three, etc. The pattern is generally repeated on the first and second beats with F7, and then the same pattern is repeated on the fourth and fifth beats with C. I am just asking anyone to play that well known passage at a typical Soleares tempo, using any rasgueado that employs only three strokes to the beat, and hear how that sounds.
Finally –
"I just want to add that Carlos Montoya's rasgueados kind of suck."
I feel sorry for anyone who thinks that these rasgueados "suck."
RE: Pepe Habichuela's rasgueado? (in reply to Ramon Amira)
Prominent Critic Please read Norman's much earlier post on how a three note rasgeo could be employed i.e. often for 16th notes. No one is suggesting it would be used once to cover a single beat in a solea.
Here's an old foro member Prof. Diaz explaining various three note rasgeo used in bulerias.
1.22 he introduces one using aii ending on ten with an upstroke. 2.00 remate using mii ending with upstroke on ten 3.29 aii beats 1,2,3+
RE: Pepe Habichuela's rasgueado? (in reply to CuerdasDulces)
OK, I think we'd better watch it here, I can see another one of those arguments that end in someone being offended and leaving the foro.
I hope, Critic is talking about teaching these rasgueados to beginners, and he's got a point (I am talking as a teacher here). Using strong downstroke on important beats will give the students a better understanding of compas.
However... After they have learned the basics they should explore and experiment further ways, just like virtually everyone here said. Luckily, there are plenty of materials available on the internet nowadays... Shouldn't be a problem. That being said, I wouldn't teach the students to completely dismiss other possibilities.
It all boils down to personal taste. You are the one that is making a choice about what rasgueado to use. If you make it an absolute rule to always start and end rasgueado with strong downstrokes, and religiously emphasize every strong beat in this way, music would become so boring. Luckily, we have golpes, upstrokes or just plain silence to give variety and bring syncopation (that is so much a part of this style) to flamenco.
Critic, I am sure you know dance, palmas and percussion. Think about what kind of rhythmic and tonal variety you hear in these things. This is what the rasgueados are mimicking.
Playing your solea example could be made to work as a variation, but it's not idiomatic for this palo. Fandangos, tangos, bulerias, alegrias and many others use it all the time. It brings playfulness to the music.
Guiro, I think Critic prefers mushier, old-style rasgueado style to the modern crispiness. Actually, quite a few people do.
Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)
RE: Pepe Habichuela's rasgueado? (in reply to CuerdasDulces)
quote:
ORIGINAL: CuerdasDulces
quote:
It all boils down to personal taste.
End of discussion!
its not the end of discussion.
which rasgueados someone prefers to teach to his students to begin with, and saying that all other types of rasgueados are bad, weakest, dreadful, useless, etc. are 2 different things. that was what he said in his first posts.
in his last post, it sounds a bit different, yes, thanks.
and of course the usual subtle attacks towards those who appreciate the so called "modern" flamenco as well. we are getting used to it, no problem. we apprciate both (his superb Montoya technique, and our bad crisp technique too!)
oh, and Nino Ricardo used to start many of his rasgs with an upstroke. this is a fact ! he should know better than us modern "kids"
Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)
RE: Pepe Habichuela's rasgueado? (in reply to Ron.M)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ron.M
Personally, I think there is too much concern given to Rasgueado technique.
At the end of the day it's just repetetive strumming with open fingers for God's sake!
The choice is yours...just whichever sounds best to you...
cheers,
Ron
well, yes, if you just want one type of sound, then you choose one rasg. technique , and you are happy !
but what if you want to have different sound and feel (depending on context) ?
well, then its a bit more complex than just repetetive strumming and it takes a lot of time and lot of practice to master the different techniques (each with its own distinctive sound and feel)
Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City
RE: Pepe Habichuela's rasgueado? (in reply to CuerdasDulces)
I don't intend to comment any further on this thread, so just to put my end to it:
First, thank you ORSONW for being a gentleman.
Next, there was really a bit of linguistic confusion right from the original post. Maybe because I'm a writer I took it a little too literally, but the original post said something about "Pepe's rasgueado." Had it said "ONE of Pepe's rasgueado's," I wouldn't have even commented in the first place. But linguistically "Pepe's rasgueado" would correctly mean "Pepe's one and only rasgueado," which is the way I understood it. Which would mean it would be used everywhere, and I simply saw any number of places where such a rasgueado would not work well.
Next – At no time did I ever say, suggest, or imply that I only teach my students one kind of rasgueado. I START them with a rasgueado that begins strongly for the very reasons cited by Grisha. Later I teach them plenty of other rasgueados.
Next – I said I didn't think much of a rasgueado that uses A and I, and I still don't, because I cannot think of a single good reason to use A in combination with I when there are other combinations that flow from the fingers much more fluently. Similarly you could play a tremolo with P-A-I-A-M, but I have never seen anyone do it, because there are more fluent combinations available. But I never said that "it should not be used." I merely expressed my opinion of it.
Next – with respect to my alleged preference for "mushy" rasgueados, I don't see anything wrong with them, but I have never said, nor have I ever felt, that those are the only kind of rasgueados to be used. In light of the fact that much has been made on this thread about variety, it seems that someone denigrating that kind of rasgueado is really saying that only one kind of rasgueado is the "right" kind. I have nothing whatever against a crisp rasgueado, and in fact I use one myself. But there are places for both. Some members have emphatically talked right here on this thread about the need and desirability for many different kinds of rasgueado, but in the same breath they exclude a perfectly good kind of rasgueado that has it's place. In my Granadinas, and in that of many other players I have heard, I sometimes start and I sometimes end with a long continuous rasgueado passage. I feel that my crisp rasgueado would be out of place in such a passage, and the smoother, flowing type of rasgueado is much more fitting for such a passage.
Good night to all – I have to go practice my rasgueado version of "Three Blind Mice." For that I will use my crisp rasgueado.
Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A
RE: Pepe Habichuela's rasgueado? (in reply to CuerdasDulces)
hey prom, again, sorry if i came off a bit rude. but i still stand by my point that rasgueados that start with i up, or any other pattern really, should not be dismissed so easily. especially if there are plenty of players using them well. i, myself, don't use i upstroke rasgueaos often but it gives me no right to say they're pointless.
concerning "mushy" rasgueados, i just meant that it's sometimes better to use less strokes then "cram" four strokes in. i wasn't really talking about old school vs. modern sound. some of my favorite players use the mushy stuff.
ok, no more grumpy talk from me.
btw, i'm still curious about what you do for triplets. you've avoided my question twice so far.
RE: Pepe Habichuela's rasgueado? (in reply to Stu)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Stu
quote:
I think there is a story behind it, like he didnt want to play for dance anymore or they kicked him out of the band. Ok, that is no reason to play stuff like that If i hadnt hear samples of him where he really plays in compas (quite solid btw), i would have thought this is kind of a offensive joke, a caricature of the flamenco guitarrist. The way he exaggerates the monotonous use of techniques. The rasg were still the best thing in the video
Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)
RE: Pepe Habichuela's rasgueado? (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
In the video you uploaded of Paco doing bulerias, you contradict your self by saying there are no upstrokes on important beats. Pretty much, in that vid, every count 10 that he closes with rageo is ami-i up on the 10th and very important beat.
In regards, for anyone serious about developing their rasgueados, it is quite common to start i upstrokes for certain rhythms. A good example is this Rondeña of paco. You can see at 4:09 he answers the melody, and again the passages at 5:12.
Ricardo
i don't think that you or anybody else should waiste their time anymore.
i mean, the guy is starting a thread and is saying that paco de lucia is OFF TOPIC and has nothing to do with flamenco.
well, how can we talk and discuss anything with someone with such an attitude ?
i am really sorry that i have rarely met people in our foroflamenco, who has the same respect to "our maestros" , which many of us have towards the more traditional maestros.
i am really giving up hope to meet someone from that time, who has an open mind. nearly all my experience were totally negative.
Posts: 14828
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Pepe Habichuela's rasgueado? (in reply to CuerdasDulces)
Just wanted to add one thing about the i up rasg. I posted from the paco vid. he is going iup, ami down. That repeats in a galloping rhythm. That is a super common pattern used in all fangango beat rhythms, and even in Tangos, for the basic compas. Sevillanas too. It is not a bizarre random thing of Paco's, pretty much all the flamenco players of note use it that I have seen. It has been more common of late to leave off the m finger down and get iup, a-i, to create that gallop. Again for tangos, fandango de huelva, sevillanas etc etc.
In fact, of all the technique "standards" for strumming compas, I am most surprised about THIS one seems to be missed by a large number of students. They usually make the same rhythms with eami, or ami, but the sound is so different I am surprised why it is so common to get that one wrong. Even advanced players don't seem to notice it.
That is the BASIC fundamental technique I show to any beginner or any student that I see NOT doing that technique already. It is important to start up and end down for the sound. So I am not on board with this thing that iai is a non-beginner thing. And yeah, it is pretty easy for just about all beginner students I have ever had. Easer than say a continuous rasgueado of any combo or tempo/palo.
EDit: sorry arash you are right. I posted right after you and missed that.
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I mean maybe it tends to be weaker, but it's not always weaker. I find it quite strong on m-a-i down, i up. 
you've avoided my question twice so far. 
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